Texas Will Keep Teaching Kids That Moses Influenced the Founding of America

[Skwim]

The Texas Board of Education has decided to keep the biblical character of Moses in the part of the social studies curriculum that discusses historical figures important to the founding of the United States.

High school students will continue to learn in government class that Moses, along with William Blackstone, John Locke, and Charles de Montesquieu, were among those who influenced the U.S. founding documents. The Republican-led board voted along party lines to keep Moses in the curriculum, with board Chairwoman Donna Bahorich, R-Houston, abstaining although she has indicated her support of retaining Moses in the past.

“In the United States, the most common book in any household in this time period was in fact the Bible, and people who didn’t necessarily believe in religion as such … still had a great knowledge of the Bible. In referencing Moses in the time period, they would have known who Moses was and that Moses was the law-giver,” said board member Pat Hardy, R-Fort Worth.

Other Republican members said that keeping Moses in the curriculum is legal, citing a Supreme Court ruling in favor of displaying the Ten Commandments on the Texas Capitol grounds.​

That makes absolutely no sense. The Bible was popular when the United States was founded because we hardly had the kind of religious diversity then that we do now and because the Christianity they practiced at the time was far removed from the sort of right-wing political evangelicalism that makes up this Texas board. Just because a religion is popular doesn’t mean history should be rewritten to accommodate it.

It also doesn’t make sense to call Moses the “law-giver” in a public school curriculum. He is the law-giver for certain religious groups, and even then only in a historical sense, but secular people who have studied history understand that his “laws” were simply rehashed versions of moral codes from his local neighbors.
source

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So, is citing Moses as having influenced the U.S. founding documents a violation of the First Amendment or not?


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[Woberts]

Looks like the taxpayers are going to have to pay for another lost lawsuit, in my opinion. Hopefully they finally get the message, but come on. This is Texas we're talking about here. That won't happen.

 

[Skwim]

Looks like the taxpayers are going to have to pay for another lost lawsuit, in my opinion. Hopefully they finally get the message, but come on. This is Texas we're talking about here. That won't happen.

Which is all the more pitiful.

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[74x12]

It also doesn’t make sense to call Moses the “law-giver” in a public school curriculum. He is the law-giver for certain religious groups, and even then only in a historical sense, but secular people who have studied history understand that his “laws” were simply rehashed versions of moral codes from his local neighbors.
source

The Law of Moses was unique from it's neighbors for a number of reasons. The code of Hammurabi for example gave preferential treatment for higher class society. They were considered to be worth more than commoners. The Law of Moses gives no such distinction.

It was definitely not a rehash of other codes. It did share some characteristics with other law codes but is not a copy or inferior work.

So, is citing Moses as having influenced the U.S. founding documents a violation of the First Amendment or not?

No. Moses is one of the most influential characters in all history.

 

[Revoltingest]

When I was in public elementary school, we still had teacher led Christian prayers.
(The USSC struck down that monstrosity.)
So I can't get worked up about giving Moses some credit as an influence.

 

[Axe Elf]

I don't see a problem with it. Moses clearly WAS an influence, whether or not one believes that the influence was positive or negative.

 

[Cacotopia]

Huh? I grew in Texas and I never learned that! I want my tax payer dollars back for not teaching me that garbage!

 

[Skwim]

No. Moses is one of the most influential characters in all history.

Perhaps, but so was Hitler. And don't forget that Moses handed down a lot of screwball laws such as pronouncements about the treatment slaves, Kosher food laws, crazy menstruation laws, and how to make sin offerings, which included animal sacrifice. These are hardly admirable laws. But in as much as you apparently agree that Moses was among those who influenced the U.S. founding documents I'm sure you can supply us with these examples of these unique offerings.

We await.


,

 

[Revoltingest]

Perhaps, but so was Hitler. And don't forget that Moses handed down a lot of screwball laws such as pronouncements about the treatment slaves, Kosher food laws, crazy menstruation laws, and how to make sin offerings, which included animal sacrifice. These are hardly admirable laws. But in as much as you apparently agree that Moses was among those who influenced the U.S. founding documents I'm sure you can supply us with these examples of these unique offerings.

We await.


,

Are you arguing that Moses had no influence?
Or that you dislike the influence that he had?

 

[Audie]

I don't see a problem with it. Moses clearly WAS an influence, whether or not one believes that the influence was positive or negative.

Oh? Not all agree that there actually was such a person.

The whole story from reed basket thru red sea
to stone tablrts and 40 yrs in the desert is more
than a little obviously apocryphal.

 

[Revoltingest]

Oh? Not all agree that there actually was such a person.

The whole story from reed basket thru red sea
to stone tablrts and 40 yrs in the desert is more
than a little obviously apocryphal.

Even if he didn't really exist, he could still be credited with influence.
Fictional characters inspire many people.

 

[Axe Elf]

Oh? Not all agree that there actually was such a person.

The whole story from reed basket thru red sea
to stone tablrts and 40 yrs in the desert is more
than a little obviously apocryphal.

Yeah, but I don't think that really matters much. There are things that are told about Chuck Norris that aren't true too, but most people accept that Chuck Norris is a real person.

So if Moses was a real person, it's not really necessary that everything that was ever said about him be true in order for him to have had an influence on the founding of America (among other things).

And if it turns out that Moses WASN'T a real person, then like all academic beliefs, that can be adjusted in the future as better information becomes available. Right now, Moses serves at a minimum as a placeholder for "whoever wrote the Torah." SOMEBODY (or somebodies) wrote them, and whoever did write them had an influence on the founding of America (among other things). For lack of better information at this point, we might as well use Moses' name.

 

[columbus]

Might I hope that it will be taught that Moses clearly didn't believe in Jesus, or any of that trinitarianism claptrap?

That Moses would have stoned The Apostles to death himself for smashing The First Commandment?

Tom
Eta~ Had Moses been around in the 1st century "AD", he would probably have turned Jesus over to the Romans. Easier way to get rid of Him~

 

[Stevicus]

​

So, is citing Moses as having influenced the U.S. founding documents a violation of the First Amendment or not?
.

Perhaps Moses parted the Delaware River and got our founding documents from a burning bush.

 

[Skwim]

Are you arguing that Moses had no influence?
Or that you dislike the influence that he had?

I would say he had no appreciable influence. Certainly not enough to merit mention. But if you feel he "was among those who influenced the U.S. founding documents," I await your evidence.

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[Revoltingest]

I would say he had no appreciable influence. Certainly not enough to merit mention. But if you feel he "was among those who influenced the U.S. founding documents," I await your evidence.

.

I have no opinion on his influence.
This is the first I've ever heard of it.

I don't even got no Bible learn'n.
When I hear the name, "Moses', I first think of the basketball player.

 

[74x12]

But in as much as you apparently agree that Moses was among those who influenced the U.S. founding documents I'm sure you can supply us with these examples of these unique offerings.

We await.
,

Many Americans viewed their plight as similar to that of the children of Israel escaping from Pharaoh. King George being likened to Pharaoh.

Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin talking about what the great seal should be were obviously referencing Moses. Franklin wanted the seal to depict Moses standing over the red sea with his staff as Pharaoh's chariots drowned in the water. Symbolic of how the colonies would be saved from King George.

Jefferson thought it should depict the children of Israel in the wilderness being led by a pillar of fire or smoke.

 

[Sunstone]

Has anyone here read Bernard Bailyn's The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution?

It sure doesn't seem like it. Yet the book has been described by Wikipedia as "one of the most influential studies of the American Revolution published during the 20th century." Anyone who is genuinely interested in questions like the influence of the Bible on the revolutionaries should rush to read it.

Obviously, the Texas State School Board is unfamiliar with Bailyn. Spoiler alert! Bailyn argues the Founders were more influenced by the fact that so many of them had practical political experience than they were influenced by ideologies, including religious ideologies. Those folks were overwhelmingly practical politicians who based the Constitution most largely on their own experience of politics.

Yeah, they often referred to the Bible or to ideological thinkers like John Locke or the classical writings of Cato the Younger. But books were rare in the colonies, and most of them had never read the thinkers they referred to. They were often wrong about the opinions of those thinkers. And even when they had read a book, such as the Bible, they cherry-picked passages and often twisted their meanings to support their own positions.

At the same time, the founders often enough had political experience serving in their colonial legislatures, etc. It was their political experience that they primarily relied upon in framing the American Constitution.

 

[Estro Felino]

Come on..your presidents still take oath on the Bible...

 

[columbus]

Come on..your presidents still take oath on the Bible...

Our president has taken many oaths.
How many times has he been married? I can't keep track, but it's lots of times.
It's just what Christians do.
Tom