Texas Will Keep Teaching Kids That Moses Influenced the Founding of America

[Axe Elf]

Someone wrote the book of mormon too.
False attribution to a fictional source
pretty much kills it, far as I am concerned.

Cant prove it is phony, but like with
"Moses" or Paul's snake story, it does
not pass the smell test.

Religion to me, is like art and love.

If it is false, it is not love, or art.

For practitioners of religion, it seems
as if its being false is irrelevant.

Not for me.

And if schools are teaching about the history of Salt Lake City, then it would be reasonable for them to cite the author of the Book of Mormon as an influence in that history.

Whether or not what is written in the Torah or in the Book of Mormon is literally true, metaphorically instructive, or blatantly false isn't important either; the fact remains that both works have had an influence on history, and to ignore that is to be intellectually dishonest.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

He was such an influence that Thomas Jefferson forgot to include him the "Jefferson Bible."

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Another thing to consdier:
Moses - Thou shalt have no other gods before me for I am thy Lord thy God; smashed the golden calf; killed apostates and those who worshiped other gods
US Constitution - Congress shall make no laws respecting religion or prohibit the free exercise thereof.
The similarities are just so striking and stark from the start that it seems so obvious!

 

[ecco]

There are English translations of the Code of Hammurabi available. I suggest you read one alongside the Torah, and determine for yourself which is the most complete and consistent.

So if you are talking about laws before the Torah was actually written, there were the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Romans, the Chinese and the Japanese. All these civilizations had legal systems long before 70 CE. Or perhaps you think these societies had no laws.

Hammurabi - Wikipedia
Hammurabi[a] (c. 1810 BC – c. 1750 BC) was the sixth king of the First Babylonian Dynasty, reigning from 1792 BC to 1750 BC
Hammurabi is best known for having issued the Code of Hammurabi, which he claimed to have received from Shamash, the Babylonian god of justice. Unlike earlier Sumerian law codes, such as the Code of Ur-Nammu, which had focused on compensating the victim of the crime, the Law of Hammurabi was one of the first law codes to place greater emphasis on the physical punishment of the perpetrator. It prescribed specific penalties for each crime and is among the first codes to establish the presumption of innocence. Although its penalties are extremely harsh by modern standards, they were intended to limit what a wronged person was permitted to do in retribution.

What evidence do you have that Moses was real?

 

[Audie]

And if schools are teaching about the history of Salt Lake City, then it would be reasonable for them to cite the author of the Book of Mormon as an influence in that history.

Whether or not what is written in the Torah or in the Book of Mormon is literally true, metaphorically instructive, or blatantly false isn't important either; the fact remains that both works have had an influence on history, and to ignore that is to be intellectually dishonest.

One can of course be tiresome, point out
news of the obvious and generally be
unhelpful in such ways.

At the risk of sending the same as yours
back at ya, OF FFREAKING COURSE
the bible / christianity had some influence
on how the US constitution was written.

My point rather obviously made was
that a RELIGION has the air let out of
it by unsupportable fanciful claims such
as "Moses" or, "god books"


If there is anything uniquely positive about
the teachings of "Moses", terrif.

The only place where the intellectual
dishonesty comes in is relation to
concocting it that "god" or any other
undetectable supernatural monster
delivered the rules to someone.

 

[Axe Elf]

The only place where the intellectual
dishonesty comes in is relation to
concocting it that "god" or any other
undetectable supernatural monster
delivered the rules to someone.

Ok, well, you don't seem to be interested in staying on the topic of the OP, so I'll let you go with this thought:

If a supernatural monster delivered the rules to someone, then it wouldn't be undetectable, now would it?

 

[Audie]

Ok, well, you don't seem to be interested in staying on the topic of the OP, so I'll let you go with this thought:

If a supernatural monster delivered the rules to someone, then it wouldn't be undetectable, now would it?

I addressed thetopic, but since you asked,
the "god" of the OT fits the "undetectable supernatural monster" appellation just fine.

And of course it didnt deliver rules. That is
another made up part.
(News of the obvious-wise.)

More news:
People believe it anyway.

 

[Axe Elf]

I addressed thetopic, but since you asked,
the "god" of the OT fits the "undetectable supernatural monster" appellation just fine.

And of course it didnt deliver rules. That is
another made up part.
(News of the obvious-wise.)

Still, if it was concocted that an undetectable supernatural monster delivered the rules to someone (as you initially stated), that wouldn't be a very good concoction--because if a supernatural monster delivered the rules, it wouldn't be undetectable.

 

[Bear Wild]

Another thing to consdier:
Moses - Thou shalt have no other gods before me for I am thy Lord thy God; smashed the golden calf; killed apostates and those who worshiped other gods
US Constitution - Congress shall make no laws respecting religion or prohibit the free exercise thereof.
The similarities are just so striking and stark from the start that it seems so obvious!

So obvious that you can worship other gods in the United States or even worship no god. Thus any god or goddess can be worshiped in the United States. Not exactly what Mosses intended.

 

[Audie]

Still, if it was concocted that an undetectable supernatural monster delivered the rules to someone (as you initially stated), that wouldn't be a very good concoction--because if a supernatural monster delivered the rules, it wouldn't be undetectable.

Whatevs.

 

[Shad]

Here's something odd about this.

The Founding Fathers were the liberal elitist politicians of their day. Conservative Christians knew their Bible well enough to know that George III was king due to Divine Providence.

Only Protestants of an Anglican bend. Catholics reject the concept completely as far as Kings go. Numerous rival Protestant groups were exiled, to America no less, for not following the government "endorsed" religion. The claims of English Kings was based on Judges (Bible) thus claimed they are Prophet-Kings/Chiefs. So all it takes is one to reject the claim they are prophets and/or Judges. There was plenty of evidence to reject such a claim. For example Henry 8 made a number of edicts about Christianity in England only to have his son contradict him when Edward became King. This contradiction can be used to support a view one or both are not what they claim thus there edicts are without religious authority. Beside DP was discarded by the very idea of the Reformation itself as the Reformation would be going against God's ordering of the world. This is why the government changed the religion in England rather than say developments in Switzerland.

Had succession from the Union(oops I meant Empire) been put to a referendum, would it have passed? Democratically?

I do not think so. One of the reasons the war had support in the South was due to Federal incursions (perception framing) in the Confederacy (Cartman voice) To keep it short when secession passed in various States the Union claimed said property was still property of the Union. Fort Sumter for example. Ergo the secessionists used this to demonstrate an aggressive imperial power that held CF land. The Unions refusal to acknowledge secession, which it claimed was unconstitutional, was also a fact in painting the Union as an aggressor. Slavery was not a major issue for the general population in comparison to the conflict over Rights and government. If there was a referendum none of the above would have happened yet thus a different rationale would need to be used. There was also a major information blackout regarding the GOP and Lincoln during the election done by Southern leadership. I think a referendum would provide time for Lincoln to transition his campaign organization into an information one for the South. In the end I think the outright deception by Southern leadership leading up to the war would be exposed earlier rather than after the war.

Hindsight being 20/20.

 

[shmogie]

So if you are talking about laws before the Torah was actually written, there were the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Romans, the Chinese and the Japanese. All these civilizations had legal systems long before 70 CE. Or perhaps you think these societies had no laws.

Hammurabi - Wikipedia
Hammurabi[a] (c. 1810 BC – c. 1750 BC) was the sixth king of the First Babylonian Dynasty, reigning from 1792 BC to 1750 BC
Hammurabi is best known for having issued the Code of Hammurabi, which he claimed to have received from Shamash, the Babylonian god of justice. Unlike earlier Sumerian law codes, such as the Code of Ur-Nammu, which had focused on compensating the victim of the crime, the Law of Hammurabi was one of the first law codes to place greater emphasis on the physical punishment of the perpetrator. It prescribed specific penalties for each crime and is among the first codes to establish the presumption of innocence. Although its penalties are extremely harsh by modern standards, they were intended to limit what a wronged person was permitted to do in retribution.

What evidence do you have that Moses was real?

Sure, there were other previous law codes. Age isn´t the issue, content is. What evidence do I have that Moses was real ? Is that important ? The Law of Moses has existed for thousands of years, that is important.

 

[ecco]

What evidence do I have that Moses was real ?

By omission, your answer is: NONE

Is that important ?

Only if one is concerned with truth.

 

[shmogie]

By omission, your answer is: NONE




Only if one is concerned with truth.

So, the influence of the law of Moses on the American founders now hinges on whether Moses can be proven to have existed ? I think not. It is easy to prove his law existed, that is what we are talking about.

Can you prove, or disprove, the existence of Robin Hood ?

 

[ecco]

So, the influence of the law of Moses on the American founders now hinges on whether Moses can be proven to have existed ? I think not. It is easy to prove his law existed, that is what we are talking about.

Hmm. His law. Moses' law. I thought the laws were God's laws as communicated to us by Moses.

All that can be shown is that some thousands of years ago some Jews cobbled together rules of civilized living that had been in use for thousands of years.

Can you prove, or disprove, the existence of Robin Hood ?

Retreating to silliness - that's not unexpected.

 

[shmogie]

Hmm. His law. Moses' law. I thought the laws were God's laws as communicated to us by Moses.

All that can be shown is that some thousands of years ago some Jews cobbled together rules of civilized living that had been in use for thousands of years.


Retreating to silliness - that's not unexpected.

Silliness ? Because you can't answer the question ? You missed the point, not unexpected.

Of course the law was given by God to Moses, as Moses stated.

You are a little confused about your dating. The Mosaic law was given about 3,000 years ago. So your thousands of years before Moses can't possibly be true.

Once again you state that the Mosaic law was taken from other civilizations, once again I ask, prove it.

 

[ecco]

Of course the law was given by God to Moses, as Moses stated.

Of Course! The laws were given by a mythical man in the sky to a mythical man on the ground. Uh huh.

You are a little confused about your dating. The Mosaic law was given about 3,000 years ago. So your thousands of years before Moses can't possibly be true.

If you are a YEC that still leaves 3000 years between Creation and Moses.
If you not a YEC, humans lived for tens of thousands of years before Moses. Do you suppose, in all those years, that there were no laws?

Once again you state that the Mosaic law was taken from other civilizations, once again I ask, prove it.

Well, looky here. Another fundie asking for "proof". People who believe in a magic man in the sky have no right to ask for proof about anything.

Nevertheless, there were at least thousands of years of human existence before Moses. Again, do you suppose, in all those years, that there were no laws?

 

[shmogie]

Of Course! The laws were given by a mythical man in the sky to a mythical man on the ground. Uh huh.




If you are a YEC that still leaves 3000 years between Creation and Moses.
If you not a YEC, humans lived for tens of thousands of years before Moses. Do you suppose, in all those years, that there were no laws?



Well, looky here. Another fundie asking for "proof". People who believe in a magic man in the sky have no right to ask for proof about anything.

Nevertheless, there were at least thousands of years of human existence before Moses. Again, do you suppose, in all those years, that there were no laws?

LOL !, A believer has no right to ask for proof of anything ! The ultimate dodge, cop out, crap out.

You have now reached total absurdity. Continue this conversation, with yourself, I am not about to go down your absurd rabbit hole with you.

adieu, ciao, auf wiedersehen, adios, goodbye

 

[ecco]

LOL !, A believer has no right to ask for proof of anything ! The ultimate dodge, cop out, crap out.

You have now reached total absurdity. Continue this conversation, with yourself, I am not about to go down your absurd rabbit hole with you.

adieu, ciao, auf wiedersehen, adios, goodbye

Was it this part that made you run?

If you are a YEC that still leaves 3000 years between Creation and Moses.
If you not a YEC, humans lived for tens of thousands of years before Moses. Do you suppose, in all those years, that there were no laws?

 

[shmogie]

Was it this part that made you run?

If you are a YEC that still leaves 3000 years between Creation and Moses.
If you not a YEC, humans lived for tens of thousands of years before Moses. Do you suppose, in all those years, that there were no laws?

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