Texas Will Keep Teaching Kids That Moses Influenced the Founding of America

[columbus]

I might get over teaching about religious figures in public schools if the teachers were accurate.

Apparently, Jesus confidently overrode Moses on a variety of issues. From observing the Sabbath to divorce law, He didn't seem to care what Moses thought.

Does Texas intend to teach that part?
Tom

 

[ecco]

34% of the cited references in the writings of the Founders are from the Bible.

Of those, the most are from the book of Deuteronomy,

Every person has the right to be physically secure and protected (24;7)

Bible Hub Deuteronomy 24

7If a man be found stealing any of his brothers of the children of Israel, and makes merchandise of him, or sells him; then that thief shall die; and you shall put evil away from among you.
​

Are you stretching a little?

In any case, a lot of Moses' writings did not make it into our laws.

These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.

And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you.
​

I wonder why.

​

I also wonder why "Thou shalt not be a Hypocrite" never made it into the big ten.

 

[shmogie]

Bible Hub Deuteronomy 24

7If a man be found stealing any of his brothers of the children of Israel, and makes merchandise of him, or sells him; then that thief shall die; and you shall put evil away from among you.
​

Are you stretching a little?

In any case, a lot of Moses' writings did not make it into our laws.

These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.

And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you.
​

I wonder why.

​

I also wonder why "Thou shalt not be a Hypocrite" never made it into the big ten.

Because those that do not meet the criteria are scavengers and feed on offal

 

[ecco]

In any case, a lot of Moses' writings did not make it into our laws.

These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.

And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you.​

I wonder why.

Because those that do not meet the criteria are scavengers and feed on offal

This really gets tiring. I asked why not eating lobster didn't make it into our laws and you respond with why Moses put it into holy writ.

I know why Moses put it in. Because back then no one realized that all you had to do was cook it.

Now, shmiogie, please explain why a ban on lobster eating is not in our (USA) laws.

 

[shmogie]

This really gets tiring. I asked why not eating lobster didn't make it into our laws and you respond with why Moses put it into holy writ.

I know why Moses put it in. Because back then no one realized that all you had to do was cook it.

Now, shmiogie, please explain why a ban on lobster eating is not in our (USA) laws.

Please, your straw man is dumb and easily blown to the wind. I, nor anyone else said the the law of Moses was adopted in total by the Founders.

I said, based upon their writings and statements, they were influenced by the law of Moses. As proof , I offered a number of precepts in the law of Moses found in the Constitution and other laws.

Why isn´t a restriction in lobster eating in our laws ? I guess they just didn´t use it.

Stupid strawman ( if the Founders were influenced by the law of Moses, his entire law should be our law), gone.

 

[ecco]

I said, based upon their writings and statements, they were influenced by the law of Moses. As proof , I offered a number of precepts in the law of Moses found in the Constitution and other laws.

Actually, your initial comment on this subject was much stronger...


Then...

34% of the cited references in the writings of the Founders are from the Bible.

Now...

[the Founding Fathers] were influenced by the law of Moses.

If that had been your initial comment, you wouldn't have gotten much of an argument.



The other problem you have is that you believe the OT was the first set of laws and rules ever contemplated. At the time of the OT was written, there were civilizations all around the globe. All had laws and rules.

 

[shmogie]

Actually, your initial comment on this subject was much stronger...


Then...


Now...

If that had been your initial comment, you wouldn't have gotten much of an argument.



The other problem you have is that you believe the OT was the first set of laws and rules ever contemplated. At the time of the OT was written, there were civilizations all around the globe. All had laws and rules.

You don't know what I believe., Yes, there were legal codes in prior cultures. Many allowed human sacrifice, or the maiming of a person for stealing, etc.

Apparently these earlier legal codes didn';t influence the founders

I find your comments regarding influencing the Founders highly amusing.

If I had simply stated the Law of Moses influenced the Founders, You would have been first in line demanding proof of the point.

I provide the proof first, and you complain about that !

You want to argue, I get it

 

[ecco]

You don't know what I believe., Yes, there were legal codes in prior cultures. Many allowed human sacrifice, or the maiming of a person for stealing, etc.

Apparently these earlier legal codes didn';t influence the founders

In reality, they took some good precedents from different cultures and bypassed some bad precedents from different cultures.

The concept of owning slaves probably did come from the Bible. I wonder if the Texas schoolbooks explain that.

I provide the proof first, and you complain about that !

You did not provide proof first (or last, or at all). You made a series of allegations.

You want to argue, I get it

If you don't want your postings criticized:
A. Don't post nonsense.
B. Don't post anything.

Your choice.

 

[shmogie]

In reality, they took some good precedents from different cultures and bypassed some bad precedents from different cultures.

The concept of owning slaves probably did come from the Bible. I wonder if the Texas schoolbooks explain that.


You did not provide proof first (or last, or at all). You made a series of allegations.




If you don't want your postings criticized:
A. Don't post nonsense.
B. Don't post anything.

Your choice.

Oh I don´t mind criticism, I just am amused by those who see it as their role in life.

Actually, by showing they stated they were influenced by the Bible, and showing that over a third of their written citations were from the Bible, I proved pretty conclusively they were influenced by the Bible.

If you were to read the Torah, you would find the the Hebrew concept of slavery was different, and much more merciful. than any from any other culture, including the antebellum South. Other than some from ancient Greek nd Roman culture, and the concept of common law and an adversarial system from Britain, please tell me of these other cultures that influenced the Founders.



Allegations ? Really ?

 

[columbus]

Actually, by showing they stated they were influenced by the Bible, and showing that over a third of their written citations were from the Bible, I proved pretty conclusively they were influenced by the Bible.

Here's something odd about this.

The Founding Fathers were the liberal elitist politicians of their day. Conservative Christians knew their Bible well enough to know that George III was king due to Divine Providence.

I sometimes wonder,
Had succession from the Union(oops I meant Empire) been put to a referendum, would it have passed? Democratically?
I don't think it would have, although the winners wrote the history books so it would be really hard to say now.
Tom

 

[ecco]

Oh I don´t mind criticism, I just am amused by those who see it as their role in life.

Ah, so that is my role in life. Well, Shmoogles, I'm forever grateful that you made me aware of it.

If you were to read the Torah, you would find the the Hebrew concept of slavery was different, and much more merciful. than any from any other culture, including the antebellum South.

What does the Torah have to do with your argument? You have been referencing the Bible and Moses.

The same bible that Americans used to justify slavery and segregation since they were God's will.

Other than some from ancient Greek nd Roman culture, and the concept of common law and an adversarial system from Britain, please tell me of these other cultures that influenced the Founders.

Nice of you to include European concepts.

The point is that laws for civilized living were around for thousands of years before "Moses". They changed over time as they were adopted by each new civilization. Do you really think that pre-Moses, people thought it was OK to murder one's neighbor or steal their property?

 

[shmogie]

Ah, so that is my role in life. Well, Shmoogles, I'm forever grateful that you made me aware of it.







What does the Torah have to do with your argument? You have been referencing the Bible and Moses.

The same bible that Americans used to justify slavery and segregation since they were God's will.


Nice of you to include European concepts.

The point is that laws for civilized living were around for thousands of years before "Moses". They changed over time as they were adopted by each new civilization. Do you really think that pre-Moses, people thought it was OK to murder one's neighbor or steal their property?

Do you know what the Torah is ? Provide some of those laws from those civized societyś that existed before Moses then.

So you think that the law of Moses is about stealing and murdering ? Do you find those in the Constitution ?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Shift the goal posts all you like. They didn't say what you said they said. (pretty sure they didn't say "beneath", either, but anyway)

Okay, I'll shift them. What is your real issue here?

 

[ecco]

Do you know what the Torah is ? Provide some of those laws from those civized societyś that existed before Moses then.

Google Search: when was torah written

According to Jewish tradition, the Oral Torah was passed down orally in an unbroken chain from generation to generation until its contents were finally committed towriting following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, when Jewish civilization was faced with an existential threat.​

So if you are talking about laws before the Torah was actually written, there were the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Romans, the Chinese and the Japanese. All these civilizations had legal systems long before 70 CE. Or perhaps you think these societies had no laws.

Hammurabi - Wikipedia

Hammurabi[a] (c. 1810 BC – c. 1750 BC) was the sixth king of the First Babylonian Dynasty, reigning from 1792 BC to 1750 BC
Hammurabi is best known for having issued the Code of Hammurabi, which he claimed to have received from Shamash, the Babylonian god of justice. Unlike earlier Sumerian law codes, such as the Code of Ur-Nammu, which had focused on compensating the victim of the crime, the Law of Hammurabi was one of the first law codes to place greater emphasis on the physical punishment of the perpetrator. It prescribed specific penalties for each crime and is among the first codes to establish the presumption of innocence. Although its penalties are extremely harsh by modern standards, they were intended to limit what a wronged person was permitted to do in retribution.​

So you think that the law of Moses is about stealing and murdering ? Do you find those in the Constitution ?

I don't understand what you are trying to get at. Don't some laws from the Torah discuss murder and theft? Don't some of the laws from the Torah discuss owning and beating slaves?

 

[shmogie]

Google Search: when was torah written

According to Jewish tradition, the Oral Torah was passed down orally in an unbroken chain from generation to generation until its contents were finally committed towriting following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, when Jewish civilization was faced with an existential threat.​

So if you are talking about laws before the Torah was actually written, there were the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Romans, the Chinese and the Japanese. All these civilizations had legal systems long before 70 CE. Or perhaps you think these societies had no laws.

Hammurabi - Wikipedia

Hammurabi[a] (c. 1810 BC – c. 1750 BC) was the sixth king of the First Babylonian Dynasty, reigning from 1792 BC to 1750 BC
Hammurabi is best known for having issued the Code of Hammurabi, which he claimed to have received from Shamash, the Babylonian god of justice. Unlike earlier Sumerian law codes, such as the Code of Ur-Nammu, which had focused on compensating the victim of the crime, the Law of Hammurabi was one of the first law codes to place greater emphasis on the physical punishment of the perpetrator. It prescribed specific penalties for each crime and is among the first codes to establish the presumption of innocence. Although its penalties are extremely harsh by modern standards, they were intended to limit what a wronged person was permitted to do in retribution.​

I don't understand what you are trying to get at. Don't some laws from the Torah discuss murder and theft? Don't some of the laws from the Torah discuss owning and beating slaves?

Your explanation re the Torah being committed to writing after 70 AD, is flat out wrong.

The Torah was a written set of scrolls carried in the Ark of the Covenant from the time of Moses. Synagogues had copies of the Torah throughout history and Jesus read from one.

I think you are confusing the Wisdom of the Rabbiś with the Torah. That was committed to writing after the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. Two totally separate documents. Modern Judaism is based on the latter, and it has no religious significance to Christians.

There are English translations of the Code of Hammurabi available. I suggest you read one alongside the Torah, and determine for yourself which is the most complete and consistent.

 

[Bear Wild]

The Texas Board of Education has decided to keep the biblical character of Moses in the part of the social studies curriculum that discusses historical figures important to the founding of the United States.

High school students will continue to learn in government class that Moses, along with William Blackstone, John Locke, and Charles de Montesquieu, were among those who influenced the U.S. founding documents. The Republican-led board voted along party lines to keep Moses in the curriculum, with board Chairwoman Donna Bahorich, R-Houston, abstaining although she has indicated her support of retaining Moses in the past.

“In the United States, the most common book in any household in this time period was in fact the Bible, and people who didn’t necessarily believe in religion as such … still had a great knowledge of the Bible. In referencing Moses in the time period, they would have known who Moses was and that Moses was the law-giver,” said board member Pat Hardy, R-Fort Worth.

Other Republican members said that keeping Moses in the curriculum is legal, citing a Supreme Court ruling in favor of displaying the Ten Commandments on the Texas Capitol grounds.​

That makes absolutely no sense. The Bible was popular when the United States was founded because we hardly had the kind of religious diversity then that we do now and because the Christianity they practiced at the time was far removed from the sort of right-wing political evangelicalism that makes up this Texas board. Just because a religion is popular doesn’t mean history should be rewritten to accommodate it.

It also doesn’t make sense to call Moses the “law-giver” in a public school curriculum. He is the law-giver for certain religious groups, and even then only in a historical sense, but secular people who have studied history understand that his “laws” were simply rehashed versions of moral codes from his local neighbors.
source
​

So, is citing Moses as having influenced the U.S. founding documents a violation of the First Amendment or not?


.

Texas is also the state elected Ted Cruz who supports Donald Trump who just said "I do not believe it" in reference to the global climate report.

 

[Bear Wild]

I'm assuming that by "Moses" we are referring to the Torah, not to the person.

This is a good thing that Texas teaches this because it is true. It has NOTHING to do with our religious diversity today. It has to do with being historically accurate. Believe me, the founding fathers were INCREDIBLY Biblical. Do you know that the "convocation" of the first Continental Congress was a full on Bible Study, and that John Adams wrote that it had literally changed how he saw things and what he and the others would enact.

And our democratic government was designed from understanding the Iroquois confederacy. Do not know how much they knew about Moses though. The New England members of the founding fathers were very different from those of the Philadelphia member who were different from those from the South. Using John Adams is only one view. Benjamin Franklin had a very different view as well as Thomas Jefferson. Yes they came together but they divided the State and Religion so that the Union could form.

 

[Bear Wild]

Okay. Then I agree it's weird and shouldn't happen. And I say that even being a Jew.

Is there any documentation from Egypt or other sources/evidence outside of the Jewish faith that Moses was an actual person?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Is there any documentation from Egypt or other sources/evidence outside of the Jewish faith that Moses was an actual person?

Moses specifically? We are limited to the documentation in the Torah.

 

[Audie]

Yeah, but I don't think that really matters much. There are things that are told about Chuck Norris that aren't true too, but most people accept that Chuck Norris is a real person.

So if Moses was a real person, it's not really necessary that everything that was ever said about him be true in order for him to have had an influence on the founding of America (among other things).

And if it turns out that Moses WASN'T a real person, then like all academic beliefs, that can be adjusted in the future as better information becomes available. Right now, Moses serves at a minimum as a placeholder for "whoever wrote the Torah." SOMEBODY (or somebodies) wrote them, and whoever did write them had an influence on the founding of America (among other things). For lack of better information at this point, we might as well use Moses' name.

Someone wrote the book of mormon too.
False attribution to a fictional source
pretty much kills it, far as I am concerned.

Cant prove it is phony, but like with
"Moses" or Paul's snake story, it does
not pass the smell test.

Religion to me, is like art and love.

If it is false, it is not love, or art.

For practitioners of religion, it seems
as if its being false is irrelevant.

Not for me.