Texas Will Keep Teaching Kids That Moses Influenced the Founding of America

[oldbadger]

ME! I'm not the one making the assertion. Have you never heard of Hitchens's razor, or the burden of proof? Evidently not.

Ha ha! First you show that you wamt to adjust history to suit your feelings and fancires, and then you redirect resp[onsibilioty for your thread to poor old Hitchen.
Ah ...well......

​

*Sigh* Your lack of reading comprehension is just too much to deal with. In this case I did not tell you how to put your case, but merely made a request.

"Five (5) is not hundreds. To repeat my request:"​

Have a good day, oldbadger. .

Ha ha........! So you never bothered to read down my post to the seven random examples that I gave you.

This is denial on an epic scale, Skwim. You're showing your extremism.

Now, as demonstrated with such ease, it is a historical fact that much of US culture, law and doctrine was brought from Europeans who had built their societies upon the tenets of Old and New Testament doctrine and Law. And so Moses Laws found their way deeply in to US culture.

Incidents such as the Salem Witch trials were not driven by indigenous cultures, you know.

It's all right, Skwim, cultures and groups do manage to change history to suit current trends, but you cannot expect it to be a cakewalk..........

EDIT!:-
Blimey! I didn't give seven random examples.... I gave eight....... nlow that's service with a smile.

1. Incitement! Lev. 19:14
2. Benefits, or Social Security! Deut. 15:7
3. Incest! many verses in Leviticus 18
4. Trading Standards! Lev. 25:14
5. Protection of a debtor's tools! Deut. 24:12
6. Weights and Measures! Lev. 19:36
7. Perjury! Ex. 20:13
8. Majority verdicts of Jurors! Ex. 23:2

 

[oldbadger]

I don't think anyone is suggesting Mosaic law doesn't touch on many of the same issues as the beloved "Founding Fathers", but the simple fact is that virtually all early American law was lifted straight from extant British common law, not created anew built on Mosaic principles.

Hello again......

British Common Law was built mainly from Church Doctrine which was based mainly upon Old and New Testaments.

And Scottish Law was built mainly from Roman Doctrine which was based upon Byzantine culture, the Old and New Testaments.

In fact I always notice the Scottish links when reading about US actions and cases. It seems that in some States you still get a CITATION for a driving offence, and law enforcement is still delivered in many areas by SHERIFFS. etc etc....... I never served an English citation ion my life, but I occasionally served Scottish ones which were for service in English counties.

I think that deep south Christianity, the extremist stuff, is totally nasty and dangerous, but even a bust clock is right niow and then, and in this case some of this subject matter that their pumping in to their kids is fairly accurate.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Hello again......

British Common Law was built mainly from Church Doctrine which was based mainly upon Old and New Testaments.

Um, got a citation on that? My understanding is that common law is built on precedents and royal, then parliamentary legislation, under the auspices of Magna Carta and informed by Roman tradition, including late Roman Christianity.

Once again, I don't think anyone is saying that there are no parallels or similarities between Mosaic law and American law, because both are for the regulation of humans, and humans are more or less the same in colonial America and the bronze age Levant. The point, rather, is that the drawing of a direct line from Mosaic Law to American colonial law is... well, let's say "a long bow to draw".

 

[oldbadger]

Um, got a citation on that? My understanding is that common law is built on precedents and royal, then parliamentary legislation, under the auspices of Magna Carta and informed by Roman tradition, including late Roman Christianity.

Well, there's a suitable link for you, right there...... Roman Christianity.
And, yeah, Common Law is/was all about what had been decided or judged before, without legislation.
But because both Protestant and Catholic Doctrines are drawn from and/or supported by Old Testament books and Laws...... that's where most of the judgements were drawn from.

Once again, I don't think anyone is saying that there are no parallels or similarities between Mosaic law and American law, because both are for the regulation of humans, and humans are more or less the same in colonial America and the bronze age Levant. The point, rather, is that the drawing of a direct line from Mosaic Law to American colonial law is... well, let's say "a long bow to draw".

I don't think that it is. I think that the laws written in the first five books (OT) initiated much of the doctrine which would be circulated in to Europe and on to the Americas, and on to that place, err.... Oz!

In another post I selected 8 laws/rules at random from the OT laws together, showing their present day existence both here and in the US. I'll chuck 'em in below to save you going back. Now, it's possible that these existed before Moses' time, but I would love to know where....... In fact I thgink that they were initiated in the OT. That's how fundamental the OT was for all of our countries. Chuck some more out, preferably not from the 106 sacrificial laws, and let's see..... ?

1. Incitement! Lev. 19:14
2. Benefits, or Social Security! Deut. 15:7
3. Incest! many verses in Leviticus 18
4. Trading Standards! Lev. 25:14
5. Protection of a debtor's tools! Deut. 24:12
6. Weights and Measures! Lev. 19:36
7. Perjury! Ex. 20:13
8. Majority verdicts of Jurors! Ex. 23:2

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Well, there's a suitable link for you, right there...... Roman Christianity.
And, yeah, Common Law is/was all about what had been decided or judged before, without legislation.
But because both Protestant and Catholic Doctrines are drawn from and/or supported by Old Testament books and Laws...... that's where most of the judgements were drawn from.

Still several removes from Moses

I don't think that it is. I think that the laws written in the first five books (OT) initiated much of the doctrine which would be circulated in to Europe and on to the Americas, and on to that place, err.... Oz!

Again, I don't believe that's the case. European law comes from the Roman more than the Mosaic. Sure, there are Christian influences, but that's a long way from "based on Mosaic law"

In another post I selected 8 laws/rules at random from the OT laws together, showing their present day existence both here and in the US. I'll chuck 'em in below to save you going back. Now, it's possible that these existed before Moses' time, but I would love to know where....... In fact I thgink that they were initiated in the OT. That's how fundamental the OT was for all of our countries. Chuck some more out, preferably not from the 106 sacrificial laws, and let's see..... ?

1. Incitement! Lev. 19:14
2. Benefits, or Social Security! Deut. 15:7
3. Incest! many verses in Leviticus 18
4. Trading Standards! Lev. 25:14
5. Protection of a debtor's tools! Deut. 24:12
6. Weights and Measures! Lev. 19:36
7. Perjury! Ex. 20:13
8. Majority verdicts of Jurors! Ex. 23:2

Again, this seems to be more a case of basic human issues meaning that different human governments needing to address similar issues.

It's sort of like stepped temple/pyramids... The Zigurat of Ur and the temple at Tenochtitlan are very similar in most respects. They address the same human needs and beliefs. That doesn't mean there is a direct link between them.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Where did they mention inalienable rights BASED on God? I know they said "under God", but BASED on? I think you're just making stuff up.

Have you considered what the word under or "beneath" means in this context?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Have you considered what the word under or "beneath" means in this context?

Shift the goal posts all you like. They didn't say what you said they said. (pretty sure they didn't say "beneath", either, but anyway)

 

[oldbadger]

Still several removes from MosesAgain, I don't believe that's the case. European law comes from the Roman more than the Mosaic. Sure, there are Christian influences, but that's a long way from "based on Mosaic law"Again, this seems to be more a case of basic human issues meaning that different human governments needing to address similar issues.

Fair enough........ our opinions divide over this point, that Mosaic Laws were the key influence in Christian Doctrine, and hence US doctrine. But for me it seems much more than several moves distant.

It's sort of like stepped temple/pyramids... The Zigurat of Ur and the temple at Tenochtitlan are very similar in most respects. They address the same human needs and beliefs. That doesn't mean there is a direct link between them.

'It's sort of like......' and '....that doesn't mean........ ' in debate about a Whole State writing Mosiac Law and Doctrine into its history as part of a school curriculum (which is probably correct, imo) isn't going to win over that State to rewriting its history .... it ain't...

I keep thinking of the various kinds of folks who first went over to America, like the Pilgrim Fathers and others, and I wonder (for about three seconds) what doctrines, guides and social laws they brought with them back in the 17th century, and I can swear on my favourite woolly hat that they sure didn't bring a bunch of pagan ideas with them.

Your turn........ come on...... bet you can't swear on your woolly hat!

 

[shmogie]

Yep, any of those would be a start, at least if they pertain to Moses. It's your claim, you back it up.

34% of the cited references in the writings of the Founders are from the Bible.

Of those, the most are from the book of Deuteronomy, the primary book of law written by Moses. "Moses and the United States Constitution" Janet Denison

Here are some things defined in the law of Moses, reflected in the US Constitution, and US law, all from this book.

Every person has the right to be physically secure and protected (24;7)
Every person has the right to be protected from false accusation and slander ( 19;15-21)
The weaker person is not to be taken advantage of by the stronger person ( 21;10-14 )
No one should be punished excessively or for the purpose of demeaning the person ( 25; 1-3)
Every person should be treated with dignity (15; 12-18)
Every person has the right to work, own land, and pass that land as an inheritance to their family (25;5-010)
People are allowed to own property and no one is allowed to take it from them in an illegal manner (22;1-4)
Every person has the right to worship and rest from their work (5;12-15)
Every person is allowed to have their marriage protected (22;13-30)
No one should be allowed to exploit the disabled, and those that are disabled should receive the care they need (24;6)
Everyone is entitled to a fair trial (19;15-21)
The law applies to all people, even the kings((17;18-20)

 

[Skwim]

34% of the cited references in the writings of the Founders are from the Bible.

Of those, the most are from the book of Deuteronomy, the primary book of law written by Moses. "Moses and the United States Constitution" Janet Denison

Here are some things defined in the law of Moses, reflected in the US Constitution, and US law, all from this book.

Every person has the right to be physically secure and protected (24;7)
Every person has the right to be protected from false accusation and slander ( 19;15-21)
The weaker person is not to be taken advantage of by the stronger person ( 21;10-14 )
No one should be punished excessively or for the purpose of demeaning the person ( 25; 1-3)
Every person should be treated with dignity (15; 12-18)
Every person has the right to work, own land, and pass that land as an inheritance to their family (25;5-010)
People are allowed to own property and no one is allowed to take it from them in an illegal manner (22;1-4)
Every person has the right to worship and rest from their work (5;12-15)
Every person is allowed to have their marriage protected (22;13-30)
No one should be allowed to exploit the disabled, and those that are disabled should receive the care they need (24;6)
Everyone is entitled to a fair trial (19;15-21)
The law applies to all people, even the kings((17;18-20)

And the ridiculous presumption here is that these rights would never have dawned on people were it not for "Moses" having announced them. Give me a break.

.

 

[shmogie]

And the ridiculous presumption here is that these rights would never have dawned on people were it not for "Moses" having announced them. Give me a break.

.

No, you don't deserve a break. Did I or anyone else say these rights would have never been enunciated except for Moses ? NO !

So now, you make leaps in your own mind to make leaps in the minds of others, so you can ridicule what nobody but yourself said.

A beautiful tactic.

Perhaps you ought to just debate yourself

 

[Skwim]

No, you don't deserve a break. Did I or anyone else say these rights would have never been enunciated except for Moses ? NO !

YES! I did in post 8.

"And don't forget that Moses handed down a lot of screwball laws such as pronouncements about the treatment slaves, Kosher food laws, crazy menstruation laws, and how to make sin offerings, which included animal sacrifice. These are hardly admirable laws. But in as much as you apparently agree that Moses was among those who influenced the U.S. founding documents I'm sure you can supply us with these examples of these unique offerings."​

"Unique" signifying laws that would never have dawned on people were it not for "Moses" having announced them.

In any case,

Have a good day.

.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Texas Board of Education has decided to keep the biblical character of Moses in the part of the social studies curriculum that discusses historical figures important to the founding of the United States.​

.

I'm assuming that by "Moses" we are referring to the Torah, not to the person.

This is a good thing that Texas teaches this because it is true. It has NOTHING to do with our religious diversity today. It has to do with being historically accurate. Believe me, the founding fathers were INCREDIBLY Biblical. Do you know that the "convocation" of the first Continental Congress was a full on Bible Study, and that John Adams wrote that it had literally changed how he saw things and what he and the others would enact.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Our president has taken many oaths.
How many times has he been married?

ROTFL This REALLY had me laughing!

 

[shmogie]

YES! I did in post 8.

"And don't forget that Moses handed down a lot of screwball laws such as pronouncements about the treatment slaves, Kosher food laws, crazy menstruation laws, and how to make sin offerings, which included animal sacrifice. These are hardly admirable laws. But in as much as you apparently agree that Moses was among those who influenced the U.S. founding documents I'm sure you can supply us with these examples of these unique offerings."​

"Unique" signifying laws that would never have dawned on people were it not for "Moses" having announced them.

In any case,

Have a good day.

.

Bwaaaaaa ha ha ha ha !

 

[Skwim]

I'm assuming that by "Moses" we are referring to the Torah, not to the person.

No. It's the person.

.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No. It's the person.

.

Okay. Then I agree it's weird and shouldn't happen. And I say that even being a Jew.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

34% of the cited references in the writings of the Founders are from the Bible.

Of those, the most are from the book of Deuteronomy, the primary book of law written by Moses. "Moses and the United States Constitution" Janet Denison

Here are some things defined in the law of Moses, reflected in the US Constitution, and US law, all from this book.

Every person has the right to be physically secure and protected (24;7)
Every person has the right to be protected from false accusation and slander ( 19;15-21)
The weaker person is not to be taken advantage of by the stronger person ( 21;10-14 )
No one should be punished excessively or for the purpose of demeaning the person ( 25; 1-3)
Every person should be treated with dignity (15; 12-18)
Every person has the right to work, own land, and pass that land as an inheritance to their family (25;5-010)
People are allowed to own property and no one is allowed to take it from them in an illegal manner (22;1-4)
Every person has the right to worship and rest from their work (5;12-15)
Every person is allowed to have their marriage protected (22;13-30)
No one should be allowed to exploit the disabled, and those that are disabled should receive the care they need (24;6)
Everyone is entitled to a fair trial (19;15-21)
The law applies to all people, even the kings((17;18-20)

"Reflected". See earlier comments about parallel development. You're reaching.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

No, you don't deserve a break. Did I or anyone else say these rights would have never been enunciated except for Moses ? NO !

That's exactly the argument you appear to be making.

 

[shmogie]

That's exactly the argument you appear to be making.

You appear to be in error