Texas Will Keep Teaching Kids That Moses Influenced the Founding of America

[Salvador]

Mosaic law was historically derived from the Code of Hammurabi, that comes from Babylon rather than from some mythological biblical character named Moses.

Many Christians will demand that Moses be taught as being a mythological fictional character rather than having been a historical figure. Right?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I'd be fine with them teaching about every aspect of the Bible. It heavily influenced how the founding fathers viewed themselves, the Universe and moral principles.

How could you possibly argue that this would be a violation of the First Amendment?

Depends on the context in which you're teaching it. In a class on religion? No problem. In a class about history? That's somewhat more problematic...

 

[BilliardsBall]

The principal authors of your constitution were deists or Unitarians, so their "God" was not the Christian or Jewish one.

Perhaps you can then explain why many of the framers ran Bible societies, were Christian pastors, etc.

 

[BilliardsBall]

"Under God" was added in 1954 during McCarthyism and had nothing to do with the America's founding.

Sorry, I meant "inalienable rights" based on "God".

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Perhaps you can then explain why many of the framers ran Bible societies, were Christian pastors, etc.

Perhaps you can explain what that has to do with the claim that any of their laws were based on anything Moses had to say about anything?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Sorry, I meant "inalienable rights" based on "God".

Where did they mention inalienable rights BASED on God? I know they said "under God", but BASED on? I think you're just making stuff up.

 

[shmogie]

Provide your evidence for this claim? I'll wait...

Provide your evidence for this claim? I'll wait...

Which do you want first, the quotations from the Founders about the influence of the Bible in the Declaration of Independence, The Revolution, and the Constitution, or specific examples from the Bible found in the American legal system ?

You might do some research on your own, since I don't plan to write a book here, The Federalist Papers would be a good place to start

 

[shmogie]

Where did they mention inalienable rights BASED on God? I know they said "under God", but BASED on? I think you're just making stuff up.

They said rights GIVEN by God

 

[shmogie]

Firstly, the 'dark ages' is a term that hasn't been used by decent historians for a couple decades or so, and secondly, early European rulers absolutely did tend to look to Roman law as guidance for formulating their own codes of law. Not a single country made any attempt to use Mosaic law. Perhaps this is largely because educated Christians knew that Paul had declared the Mosaic law obsolete, but Roman law had a far stronger influence than Mosaic law ever did.

Secondly, the Roman state became essentially a monarchy, not particularly dissimilar to later European monarchies, and it did make some attempt to codify laws; Hadrian was the first emperor I know of to try to do so. I'll freely admit that you won't find enormous Roman influence in any somewhat-modern legal codes, including that of eighteenth-century Britain -- since, after all, cultures had pre-existing codes of law, and over a millennium had passed since the fall of the Western Empire -- and that Hadrian's influence on British law might be compared to Pluto's distance from the sun, but if so, Moses' influence is beyond the Oort cloud.

Finally, the British monarch at that point had nowhere near absolute power -- the English Civil War and the Glorious Revolution made sure of that. It's pretty easy to see a link between the American Congress and the English Parliament, is it not? And I'll grant, of course, that the English Parliament doesn't seem to be legally based on any particular Roman traditions, but the American Congress clearly was -- its authors didn't dream up the term "Senate" from nowhere!

Of course at the fall of the Empire Roman law was in place, but it obviously began to break down. You sound like a Brit, if so you must realize that your own country divided along tribal lines, with resultant tribal law replacing or incorporating some Roman law. Further, at one point in time Nordic peoples had control of most of Britain, and imposed their own law, and since they had never been under much influence from Rome, it didn't much resemble Roman law. It was the Church, and Christian perceptions of law that were consistent.

In the Napoleonic wars and the Revolution, the King had complete control of the military, George was only slightly restrained by Parliaments control of the purse, he usually cajoled them to give him what he wanted.

To pretend that the British monarchy, or any monarch of the time where the Divine right of kings was the norm, was restricted to any significant degree by civilian authority is disingenuous

Yep, the Founders used the term senate for one of our legislative chambers. We also use the term football, and call the European game soccer.

Our system has three co equal branches of government, the Executive, Judicial, and Legislative. Corresponding exactly with the Biblical KIng, judge, and Lawgiver.

Interestingly, the fresco of the US Supreme Court building depicts Moses giving the law. Since He and that law have absolutely nothing to do with our Constitution or laws, one one can only wonder why that depiction was placed there or why it hasn';t been removed. As far as I know, no Supreme Court Justice has ever complained about it.

As to your gentle swipe regarding the dark ages, I am not a historian, decent or otherwise. The term not being used for 20 years is irrelevant to the conversation.

 

[Prestor John]

Depends on the context in which you're teaching it. In a class on religion? No problem. In a class about history? That's somewhat more problematic...

And if said book heavily influenced American historical figures?

It is possible to teach about people and events in the Bible without espousing any religious views.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

The English political system was a monarchy … where all power was vested in one person. The Constitution was a response to the English system, and was an antithesis of it.

England was rules by the monarch and parliament. The monarch could not rule by decree, unlike the king of France. The US rebels constantly claimed that they were the true inheritors of English legal tradition.

Roman law is nothing like our law of today, and Europe was rejecting [sic] it after Rome fell…

Most non-English-speaking countries have a legal system based on Roman law. International law is based on Roman law. I could quote you examples of maritime cases from recent years settled by direct appeal to Roman law!

Eight uninformed posts in one day! Are you going for the Trump Award?

 

[shmogie]

England was rules by the monarch and parliament. The monarch could not rule by decree, unlike the king of France. The US rebels constantly claimed that they were the true inheritors of English legal tradition.


Most non-English-speaking countries have a legal system based on Roman law. International law is based on Roman law. I could quote you examples of maritime cases from recent years settled by direct appeal to Roman law!

Eight uninformed posts in one day! Are you going for the Trump Award?

Nice little attack there I appreciate it. As I SAID, in Englands wars king George was free to do as he chose George was free to as he choose., Parliamant controlled the purse strings, which history shows he got around.

As I SAID, Roman law was adopted or modified, those parts adopted as Europe fell into tribalism.,The Goths, Visigoths, Danes and others didn't pay attention to Roman law when the empire fell. I don't think the Danes were too interested in the Roman law regarding extortion, if there was one, when they were collecting Danegeld. Europe during this phase was ruled by tribal law and fiat. There were no European nations as we later know them.

As I SAID, these later nations adopted some Roman law, and rejected much of it.

The middle ages fell under the sway of the Church.Witness Henry the 8th playing games to get a divorce from Katherine of Aragon, because divorce was against Christian principles, yet Roman law allowed it.

During the Reformation , the Electors of Germany adhered closely to Protestant principles, ditto for Geneva under Calvin, and most of the rest of Europe allowed the pope vast amounts of power. Apparently you have read my posts, I am sorry you were unable to comprehend them. I will try and make things simpler.

 

[Shad]

The Federalist Papers would be a good place to start

This is where I found references to the Bible. Adams letters as well for a specific person.

 

[Shad]

England was rules by the monarch and parliament. The monarch could not rule by decree, unlike the king of France. The US rebels constantly claimed that they were the true inheritors of English legal tradition.

Do not confuse the open parliamentary system of today with the form from the past. If you were a commoner you couldn't vote. Often parliament was merely political tool to make a monarch's tyrannical edicts completely legal. See Henry 8, Elizabeth 1, anti-Catholic laws, etc. It was filled by the rich representing themselves. Heck some riding were for villages of a few hundred while cities have no riding at all.

 

[oldbadger]

Five (5) is not hundreds. To repeat my request:

"In fact you don't even have to list all of them, just give me five (5) of these unique laws that Moses laid down and necessarily influenced the founding of America. "​

.

If only you could have selected some of the laws yourself....... but I think that you were worried to..........

No Skwim, you don't get to tell me how to put my case, that the Laws of Moses were a key to US culture and laws. I did happen to make a random selection of OT laws which shake hands with modern legislation and legal practice, but if they had been more cultural than legal selections then the demonstration would still have worked.

Now for the History that you and others are so determined to crush..... step by step..... small bite-size chunks......

British colonization of the Americas by mostly English and the Scots began in 17th century..... ok?

Much of the law in Scotland and England today is similar to yours. ..... ok?

Both England and Scotland were strongly Christian, and their Doctrines founded upon both the Old and New Testaments. Scottish Law was founded mostly on Roman Law from the Byzantine era, which influenced most of the legal systems in Europe, where most of your colonists arrived from...... funny that, how you can't see the connections with US culture and law with OT law!...... ok?

So I looked up a couple of links to US Foundation and found this:-
Founding Fathers of the United States
On July 4, 1776, immediately after the Declaration of Independence was officially passed, the Continental Congress asked John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin to design a seal that would clearly represent a symbol for the new United States. They chose the symbol of Moses leading the Israelites to freedom.[123] The Founding Fathers of the United States inscribed the words of Moses on the Liberty Bell: "Proclaim Liberty thro' all the Land to all the Inhabitants thereof." (Leviticus 25) ............ Oh dear...... Your thread trashed, Skwim.....

You're appearing as if to try to stamp out religion, and it begins to look as if you might be some kind of 'reverse fundie'? What do you think, eh?

1. Incitement! Lev. 19:14
2. Benefits, or Social Security! Deut. 15:7
3. Incest! many verses in Leviticus 18
4. Trading Standards! Lev. 25:14
5. Protection of a debtor's tools! Deut. 24:12
6. Weights and Measures! Lev. 19:36
7. Perjury! Ex. 20:13
8. Majority verdicts of Jurors! Ex. 23:2

 

[Skwim]

If only you could have selected some of the laws yourself....... but I think that you were worried to.......... [

ME! I'm not the one making the assertion. Have you never heard of Hitchens's razor, or the burden of proof? Evidently not. Here, from Wikipedia:

"Hitchens's razor is an epistemological razor asserting that the burden of proof regarding the truthfulness of a claim lies with the one who makes the claim, and if this burden is not met, the claim is unfounded, and its opponents need not argue further in order to dismiss it."​

No Skwim, you don't get to tell me how to put my case, that the Laws of Moses were a key to US culture and laws.

*Sigh* Your lack of reading comprehension is just too much to deal with. In this case I did not tell you how to put your case, but merely made a request.

"Five (5) is not hundreds. To repeat my request:"


​

Have a good day, oldbadger.

.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

And if said book heavily influenced American historical figures?

if you can provide evidence to that effect, great

It is possible to teach about people and events in the Bible without espousing any religious views.

Sure. But when you shoehorn the Bible in where it's not actually relevant, that's a pretty big red flag that you have a religios agenda to push, be it overt or covert.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

If only you could have selected some of the laws yourself....... but I think that you were worried to..........

No Skwim, you don't get to tell me how to put my case, that the Laws of Moses were a key to US culture and laws. I did happen to make a random selection of OT laws which shake hands with modern legislation and legal practice, but if they had been more cultural than legal selections then the demonstration would still have worked.

Now for the History that you and others are so determined to crush..... step by step..... small bite-size chunks......

British colonization of the Americas by mostly English and the Scots began in 17th century..... ok?

Much of the law in Scotland and England today is similar to yours. ..... ok?

Both England and Scotland were strongly Christian, and their Doctrines founded upon both the Old and New Testaments. Scottish Law was founded mostly on Roman Law from the Byzantine era, which influenced most of the legal systems in Europe, where most of your colonists arrived from...... funny that, how you can't see the connections with US culture and law with OT law!...... ok?

So I looked up a couple of links to US Foundation and found this:-
Founding Fathers of the United States
On July 4, 1776, immediately after the Declaration of Independence was officially passed, the Continental Congress asked John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin to design a seal that would clearly represent a symbol for the new United States. They chose the symbol of Moses leading the Israelites to freedom.[123] The Founding Fathers of the United States inscribed the words of Moses on the Liberty Bell: "Proclaim Liberty thro' all the Land to all the Inhabitants thereof." (Leviticus 25) ............ Oh dear...... Your thread trashed, Skwim.....

You're appearing as if to try to stamp out religion, and it begins to look as if you might be some kind of 'reverse fundie'? What do you think, eh?

1. Incitement! Lev. 19:14
2. Benefits, or Social Security! Deut. 15:7
3. Incest! many verses in Leviticus 18
4. Trading Standards! Lev. 25:14
5. Protection of a debtor's tools! Deut. 24:12
6. Weights and Measures! Lev. 19:36
7. Perjury! Ex. 20:13
8. Majority verdicts of Jurors! Ex. 23:2

I don't think anyone is suggesting Mosaic law doesn't touch on many of the same issues as the beloved "Founding Fathers", but the simple fact is that virtually all early American law was lifted straight from extant British common law, not created anew built on Mosaic principles.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

They said rights GIVEN by God

Where?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Which do you want first, the quotations from the Founders about the influence of the Bible in the Declaration of Independence, The Revolution, and the Constitution, or specific examples from the Bible found in the American legal system ?

You might do some research on your own, since I don't plan to write a book here, The Federalist Papers would be a good place to start

Yep, any of those would be a start, at least if they pertain to Moses. It's your claim, you back it up.