Texas Will Keep Teaching Kids That Moses Influenced the Founding of America

[Father Heathen]

You're right! The Bible had NO bearing on "... under God ..." as the framers were rather thinking about the FSM and the Qu'ran when they framed.

"Under God" was added in 1954 during McCarthyism and had nothing to do with the America's founding.

 

[Spiderman]

I had to reread the title, because the first thing I saw was '" Texas will keep touching kids".

 

[shmogie]

The Texas Board of Education has decided to keep the biblical character of Moses in the part of the social studies curriculum that discusses historical figures important to the founding of the United States.

High school students will continue to learn in government class that Moses, along with William Blackstone, John Locke, and Charles de Montesquieu, were among those who influenced the U.S. founding documents. The Republican-led board voted along party lines to keep Moses in the curriculum, with board Chairwoman Donna Bahorich, R-Houston, abstaining although she has indicated her support of retaining Moses in the past.

“In the United States, the most common book in any household in this time period was in fact the Bible, and people who didn’t necessarily believe in religion as such … still had a great knowledge of the Bible. In referencing Moses in the time period, they would have known who Moses was and that Moses was the law-giver,” said board member Pat Hardy, R-Fort Worth.

Other Republican members said that keeping Moses in the curriculum is legal, citing a Supreme Court ruling in favor of displaying the Ten Commandments on the Texas Capitol grounds.​

That makes absolutely no sense. The Bible was popular when the United States was founded because we hardly had the kind of religious diversity then that we do now and because the Christianity they practiced at the time was far removed from the sort of right-wing political evangelicalism that makes up this Texas board. Just because a religion is popular doesn’t mean history should be rewritten to accommodate it.

It also doesn’t make sense to call Moses the “law-giver” in a public school curriculum. He is the law-giver for certain religious groups, and even then only in a historical sense, but secular people who have studied history understand that his “laws” were simply rehashed versions of moral codes from his local neighbors.
source
​

So, is citing Moses as having influenced the U.S. founding documents a violation of the First Amendment or not?


.

No, not at all. Because something or someone is related to religion, it does not void history.

The Judeo Christian perspective of law and justice was hugely influential on the Founders, thus the Declaration of Independence and Constitution. They themselves alluded to this.

The First Amendment is concerned about establishing a state religion.

Referring to Moses and the mosaic law as having influence on the foundation of American law has nothing to do with establishing a state religion.

It has everything to do with historical fact.

 

[shmogie]

Our president has taken many oaths.
How many times has he been married? I can't keep track, but it's lots of times.
It's just what Christians do.
Tom[/QUOTE So, how do you know he is a Christian ? Those other Christians you have contempt for, how do you know they are Christians ?

So, ¨itś just what Christians do¨, is your observation regarding every one of us who has ever lived, or is alive today.

Blanket indictments like this ¨is just what bigots do¨

 

[shmogie]

Perhaps, but so was Hitler. And don't forget that Moses handed down a lot of screwball laws such as pronouncements about the treatment slaves, Kosher food laws, crazy menstruation laws, and how to make sin offerings, which included animal sacrifice. These are hardly admirable laws. But in as much as you apparently agree that Moses was among those who influenced the U.S. founding documents I'm sure you can supply us with these examples of these unique offerings.

We await.


,

You really know little of Mosaic law, as is obvious by your post. I would suggest you know little of Western law as well.

Couple lack of knowledge with visceral hatred, and you get erroneous conclusions, like yours

 

[shmogie]

Oh? Not all agree that there actually was such a person.

The whole story from reed basket thru red sea
to stone tablrts and 40 yrs in the desert is more
than a little obviously apocryphal.

It is irrelevant to the discussion as to whether he existed or not.

We are discussing the thousands of year old writings attributed to him.

 

[shmogie]

Might I hope that it will be taught that Moses clearly didn't believe in Jesus, or any of that trinitarianism claptrap?

That Moses would have stoned The Apostles to death himself for smashing The First Commandment?

Tom
Eta~ Had Moses been around in the 1st century "AD", he would probably have turned Jesus over to the Romans. Easier way to get rid of Him~

You must have a point, somewhere, somehow.

Uh, actually Moses believed in an ultimate Messiah, whom Christ was, but whether he did or not is unrelated to the point.

Who gives a rats rear regarding your view of the Trinity ?

 

[shmogie]

Perhaps Moses parted the Delaware River and got our founding documents from a burning bush.

profound

 

[shmogie]

Moses didn't have any appreciable influence on this country's legal codes; certainly not the Constitution. The Constitution was influenced by the English political system, and some say classical Greek ideas of democracy (though I don't know to what degree this is true). English -- and most European -- law was based on Roman law and indigenous traditions, and Roman law wasn't influenced by Judaic law at all. I don't claim there's no influence of Mosaic law in the Constitution, but, for instance, the Emperor Hadrian probably has more claim to influence than Moses does.

Sigh, The English political system was a monarchy. Not like today, a system where all power was vested in one person. The Constitution was a response to the English system, and was an atithesis of it.

Roman law is nothing like our law of today, and Europe was rejecting it after Rome fell, the dark ages were dark for a number of reasons.

European nations became Christian nations and their law at some levels reflected the law of Moses.

Your illustration re Hadrian is as far from the mark as Pluto is from the sun.

 

[shmogie]

More to the point, beyond it's constitutionality or otherwise, is the simple fact that's it's not a historically supported claim.

Actually, it is, a simple fact

 

[Father Heathen]

So how did Moses influence the founding of America, exactly? What parallels can be drawn between Judeo-Christian scripture and The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, The Bill of Rights, etc?

 

[oldbadger]

Okay, HERE are all 613 commandments. Aside from those that simply make common sense, and don't need any input from Moses to recognize, which of them are so unique and valuable that we would have missed them had it not been for Moses?

1.
2.
3..​

Wow Skwim, that post sure does show a mindset that is its own kind of extremism. A fundie anti-religionist or something?

The Colonists brought the bible to your country hundreds of years ago.
The Old Testament laws and guides were there, in the bible.
Ergo it offered a foundation for your laws. It did even before the colonists had ever arrived!

So it's part of your HISTORY.

So please don't pretend that our Western countries found their laws under a willow tree, or thought them up in a dream........ They are HISTORICALLY from the bible. So teach the kids the HISTORY of it all.

And I didn't think that you could chuck one of the 507 at me without being shown good reason and common sense in return.

The Thread is full of its own kind of extremism, Skwim!

 

[oldbadger]

So how did Moses influence the founding of America, exactly?

Ah, no to that.

What parallels can be drawn between Judeo-Christian scripture and The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, The Bill of Rights, etc?

Ah, no to that.

So why didn't you ask where the building bricks of your laws and codes came from? Historically the OT laws had to have been the foundation for those. You're just looking the wrong way........

 

[Skwim]

The Colonists brought the bible to your country hundreds of years ago.
The Old Testament laws and guides were there, in the bible.
Ergo it offered a foundation for your laws. It did even before the colonists had ever arrived!

Not ergo at all. And whether the laws of Moses were offered as a foundation or not isn't the issue. The issue is whether or not they were used as a foundation.

So please don't pretend that our Western countries found their laws under a willow tree, or thought them up in a dream........ They are HISTORICALLY from the bible. So teach the kids the HISTORY of it all.

"They" as in all of them? At least turn down the hyperbole a bit. Okay?

And I didn't think that you could chuck one of the 507 at me without being shown good reason and common sense in return.

Well, you and others are contending that the laws Moses laid down Influenced the Founding of America, and because I don't see it all I'm asking is that these unique laws be pointed out. Shouldn't be all that difficult, especially when I gave you a linked list to all of them (post 39). In fact you don't even have to list all of them, just give me five (5) of these unique laws that Moses laid down and necessarily influenced the founding of America.

1. ________________________________
2. ________________________________
3. ________________________________
4. ________________________________
5. ________________________________


.​

 

[oldbadger]

Not ergo at all. And whether the laws of Moses were offered as a foundation or not isn't the issue. The issue is whether or not they were used as a foundation.

Yes, they were.....
Or can you show us all where else they came from, back in the day.... :shrug

"They" as in all of them? At least turn down the hyperbole a bit. Okay?

Please offer us examples of those which were not (in some way) adopted?
You're going to have a hard time with that, Skwim.
And please don't stray in to the sacrificial 106.

Well, you and others are contending that the laws Moses laid down Influenced the Founding of America, and because I don't see it all I'm asking is that these unique laws be pointed out. Shouldn't be all that difficult, especially when I gave you a linked list to all of them (post 39). In fact you don't even have to list all of them, just give me five (5) of these unique laws that Moses laid down and necessarily influenced the founding of America.

1. ________________________________
2. ________________________________
3. ________________________________
4. ________________________________
5. ________________________________


.​

I'm not writing out hundreds of laws for you Skwim....... I'm too old to do homework for you .....

It's much easier if you would kindly pick half a dozen for us to explain in connection with the culture, laws, etc of your country.

You've just picked a debate that you cannot win Skwim..... you're slippin', Sir.

 

[Duke_Leto]

Sigh, The English political system was a monarchy. Not like today, a system where all power was vested in one person. The Constitution was a response to the English system, and was an atithesis of it.

Roman law is nothing like our law of today, and Europe was rejecting it after Rome fell, the dark ages were dark for a number of reasons.

European nations became Christian nations and their law at some levels reflected the law of Moses.

Your illustration re Hadrian is as far from the mark as Pluto is from the sun.

Firstly, the 'dark ages' is a term that hasn't been used by decent historians for a couple decades or so, and secondly, early European rulers absolutely did tend to look to Roman law as guidance for formulating their own codes of law. Not a single country made any attempt to use Mosaic law. Perhaps this is largely because educated Christians knew that Paul had declared the Mosaic law obsolete, but Roman law had a far stronger influence than Mosaic law ever did.

Secondly, the Roman state became essentially a monarchy, not particularly dissimilar to later European monarchies, and it did make some attempt to codify laws; Hadrian was the first emperor I know of to try to do so. I'll freely admit that you won't find enormous Roman influence in any somewhat-modern legal codes, including that of eighteenth-century Britain -- since, after all, cultures had pre-existing codes of law, and over a millennium had passed since the fall of the Western Empire -- and that Hadrian's influence on British law might be compared to Pluto's distance from the sun, but if so, Moses' influence is beyond the Oort cloud.

Finally, the British monarch at that point had nowhere near absolute power -- the English Civil War and the Glorious Revolution made sure of that. It's pretty easy to see a link between the American Congress and the English Parliament, is it not? And I'll grant, of course, that the English Parliament doesn't seem to be legally based on any particular Roman traditions, but the American Congress clearly was -- its authors didn't dream up the term "Senate" from nowhere!

 

[Skwim]

I'm not writing out hundreds of laws for you Skwim....... I'm too old to do homework for you .....

Five (5) is not hundreds. To repeat my request:

"In fact you don't even have to list all of them, just give me five (5) of these unique laws that Moses laid down and necessarily influenced the founding of America. "​

.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Actually, it is, a simple fact

Provide your evidence for this claim? I'll wait...

 

[Prestor John]

The Texas Board of Education has decided to keep the biblical character of Moses in the part of the social studies curriculum that discusses historical figures important to the founding of the United States.

High school students will continue to learn in government class that Moses, along with William Blackstone, John Locke, and Charles de Montesquieu, were among those who influenced the U.S. founding documents. The Republican-led board voted along party lines to keep Moses in the curriculum, with board Chairwoman Donna Bahorich, R-Houston, abstaining although she has indicated her support of retaining Moses in the past.

“In the United States, the most common book in any household in this time period was in fact the Bible, and people who didn’t necessarily believe in religion as such … still had a great knowledge of the Bible. In referencing Moses in the time period, they would have known who Moses was and that Moses was the law-giver,” said board member Pat Hardy, R-Fort Worth.

Other Republican members said that keeping Moses in the curriculum is legal, citing a Supreme Court ruling in favor of displaying the Ten Commandments on the Texas Capitol grounds.​

That makes absolutely no sense. The Bible was popular when the United States was founded because we hardly had the kind of religious diversity then that we do now and because the Christianity they practiced at the time was far removed from the sort of right-wing political evangelicalism that makes up this Texas board. Just because a religion is popular doesn’t mean history should be rewritten to accommodate it.

It also doesn’t make sense to call Moses the “law-giver” in a public school curriculum. He is the law-giver for certain religious groups, and even then only in a historical sense, but secular people who have studied history understand that his “laws” were simply rehashed versions of moral codes from his local neighbors.
source
​

So, is citing Moses as having influenced the U.S. founding documents a violation of the First Amendment or not?


.

I'd be fine with them teaching about every aspect of the Bible. It heavily influenced how the founding fathers viewed themselves, the Universe and moral principles.

How could you possibly argue that this would be a violation of the First Amendment?

 

[Sunstone]

So how did Moses influence the founding of America, exactly? What parallels can be drawn between Judeo-Christian scripture and The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, The Bill of Rights, etc?

Don't you know? Moses set up the only representative republic mentioned in the Bible. He divided government into three branches -- the executive, legislative, and judiciary -- and he pitted them against each other in order to create checks and balances. He then went even further and guaranteed certain rights -- such as freedom of speech -- to the people. It's all in the Bible. You only need to squint very, very hard to read it.

By the way, Texans are especially good at reading it in their Bibles, since the bright Southern sunlight already has them squinting.