Thank God for the Prophets.....

[Windwalker]

The best eastern teachers say to question, even what they are saying. They say to experience their teachings for yourself, so that you KNOW rather than believe. But this 'knowing' of spiritual things is not likely to come easily in our novice meditation experiences, so we have to intellectually judge these masters and decide to follow what they say as a theory until we can know for ourselves.

Yes, it is different than the Abrahamic fundamentalism, which I think was more what you were criticizing.

Yes, what you say above about the Eastern teachers I would consider healthy. As a novice you would have to take the word of a trusted teacher, but the goal ultimately is for you to discover the truth for yourself, not to be forever dependent on them for your answers. The best teachers are those who nurture students who will even surpass themselves.

 

[taykair]

I've never met anyone who didn't believe in external authorities. Everyone takes in data from outside oneself and arranges it within themselves. Whether the source is the Buddha, or the Apostle Paul, or Richard Dawkins (or - if one is fortunate - these three plus thousands more) the information is taken in and put in its place within us to help us to form and build and temper and challenge our viewpoint.

Of course, it may make us feel better about our own biases to believe that others do not do this, but are instead only robots who parrot the ideas of another and do not think for themselves. But they do, in fact, think for themselves. They simply do not think as we do, and so we believe that their information-handling process is flawed in some way.

For some of us, it is easier to say, "Oh, he's just a fundamentalist. That's how they are" or "He's just an atheist. That's how they think" than it is for us to do the hard work of trying to understand them.

 

[Katzpur]

...and those who tell us what to think so we don't have to.

It seems to me this is the core issue with believing in external authorities. It is a projection, an escape, of not wanting to deal with the difficult issues of navigating our own internal landscapes and finding our way through to Truth. We want others to tell us the way, so we don't have to take responsibility. "God said it, I believe it, that settles it for me," is a form of cowardice.

Agree? Disagree?

If I could know for sure that "God said it," I'd say it would be settled for me. But any time another human being says, "God said it," I can't be so sure.

 

[Scott C.]

"God said it, I believe it, that settles it for me," is a form of cowardice.

I see. So Christians who over the centuries dedicated their lives, hearts and souls to their religion, who suffered at the hands of oppressors, who wore out their lives serving others, and who in some cases died for the cause, are cowards.

 

[David T]

As a musical type i dont need leadbelly I appreciate leadbelly. Recording voices is intetersting. Before recording the dead were dead. Meaning that we carried the dead with us identical to pre literate story. After recording we could put them on a self, or pull them off a shelf put them on a machine and listen to them. We could own them, or we could go to the library, and check them out..

Books, cant capture the voice, only the narrative. Most of American folk was not of the educated and like rap or punk it just emerged.


So when prophets Are mentioned here, it's the equivilant to leadbelly in music but related solely to literature. What all litrerature prophets lack is literal voice, more specifically prosody . There is no notation available for that so what that melody is, is a dart throw, theology is a professional dart throw vs an amateur dart thrower. If I am incorrect no theologian would exist. So the "litrrary prophets" arent telling us, they are expressing, we listen as if they are telling us, and that is just us talking to ourselves about ourselves. Nonsense of course, but hey thats normal. But i am lefthanded and thats not normal.

 

[Akivah]

To put a finer point on it, yes I was talking about the Abrahamic ideas of prophets as oracles of God. They speak "revelation" as chosen ones, and their words are not their owns, but God's. So therefore, if you don't think for yourself but just follow them it is perceived that you'll be safe.

That might be the christian view of prophets, but it isn't the Jewish view.

In Judaism, our prophets only speak the words of G-d. If they come up with their own words which differ from the Torah, this proves that they are not prophets. We think for ourselves so that within our own facts and circumstances, we can be in accordance with Torah.

I don't understand your reference to safety. It seems to be a non-sequitur.

 

[metis]

In Judaism, our prophets only speak the words of G-d. If they come up with their own words which differ from the Torah, this proves that they are not prophets.

Given that the people that founded the first churches have been dead for over a thousand years, how do you know which is the only correct version?

Aren't these inconsistent?

 

[Windwalker]

As a musical type i dont need leadbelly I appreciate leadbelly. Recording voices is intetersting. Before recording the dead were dead. Meaning that we carried the dead with us identical to pre literate story. After recording we could put them on a self, or pull them off a shelf put them on a machine and listen to them. We could own them, or we could go to the library, and check them out..

Books, cant capture the voice, only the narrative. Most of American folk was not of the educated and like rap or punk it just emerged.


So when prophets Are mentioned here, it's the equivilant to leadbelly in music but related solely to literature. What all litrerature prophets lack is literal voice, more specifically prosody . There is no notation available for that so what that melody is, is a dart throw, theology is a professional dart throw vs an amateur dart thrower. If I am incorrect no theologian would exist. So the "litrrary prophets" arent telling us, they are expressing, we listen as if they are telling us, and that is just us talking to ourselves about ourselves. Nonsense of course, but hey thats normal. But i am lefthanded and thats not normal.

Wow, this is a really great post! I like it a lot. But I will clarify one thing I think may help refine this, without diving too deep into it. You said, "we listen as if they are telling us, and that is just us talking to ourselves about ourselves. Nonsense of course, but hey that's normal." That is exactly correct, however I would not call that nonsense. On the contrary, they become a vehicle for our inner voices to project out of us, in order for us to hear and listen to ourselves, our subconscious, or unconscious voices. That is what music does (I am a musician as well). This is the power of myth, as Joseph Campbell would have expressed. A good myth has legs, as it can be interpreted so many ways, in some many different times and contexts.

But the danger is, when you do not recognize that it is part of you, that the prophets are an extension of you, and you instead take it as wholly external and authoritative over you, even when your own gut is saying "I don't buy that". At that point, you have surrendered your soul to be crushed underfoot by an authoritarian ruler. "Don't trust yourself, trust me!," when said to something you find distressing or wrong on level, is anything but about spiritual growth. It's about fear and hiding under the guise you'll be safe if you don't question it. Now you are projecting the prophet as your own jail-keeper.

It seems the problem perhaps isn't prophets, per se, but ourselves and how we either use them for good for us to better ourselves, or evil to hide from ourselves using them as the excuse for our lack of courage to grow, which means facing our inner voices. They instead become an expression of our cowardice, at such a point.

 

[Windwalker]

I've never met anyone who didn't believe in external authorities. Everyone takes in data from outside oneself and arranges it within themselves. Whether the source is the Buddha, or the Apostle Paul, or Richard Dawkins (or - if one is fortunate - these three plus thousands more) the information is taken in and put in its place within us to help us to form and build and temper and challenge our viewpoint.

It really depends on how one views the level of authority that matters. Like anyone, I respect and listen to experts in their fields, but I also listen to other experts and consider options of what I should say I believe in, at that time. However, when you say the prophet is God speaking, you are saying to others, or more importantly to yourself, "Do not question anything!". It is giving yourself the excuse to not think!

And that is the problem when you make something out of this in order to silence your own thoughts and ideas, or any questioning, doubting, etc. That is what I was starting to point out in the post right before this one. This is the problem, is taking natural looking outside ourselves for directions, to surrendering your participation in the process. That is what is the act of cowardice, at some level within ourselves.

 

[Windwalker]

If I could know for sure that "God said it," I'd say it would be settled for me. But any time another human being says, "God said it," I can't be so sure.

You know the problem with this? Even if God said it, you might misunderstand it. Do you understand everything I'm saying? Do you interpret my words through your mind and your experiences? If God spoke a sentence to you about something, are you sure you'd get it? What if it was the words someone else wrote down that I had told them, and then you were to read that? Would the misunderstanding lessen or grow?

 

[Windwalker]

I see. So Christians who over the centuries dedicated their lives, hearts and souls to their religion, who suffered at the hands of oppressors, who wore out their lives serving others, and who in some cases died for the cause, are cowards.

It was not my intention to relate this to people who fervently believed in something who sacrificed their own lives, to the sort of cowardice I am referring to. I wasn't imagining to get ensnared to say all these people were all doing this, which I'm sure I don't believe, but I will in fact say that many a coward straps a bomb on their chest to blow up others under the belief it will get them into heaven. Fantancism is not bravery. It's actually a pathological form of cowardice, an overcompensation for it.

But in fact, many times becoming a physical martyr, may in fact be motivated by taking the easy way out - death. The hard way out is through the briar patch of demons in your lives to own and overcome, rather than the shortcut path of an exploding bomb, being bravely thrown into the Lions' Den in the hope of meeting Jesus when they ravage your flesh, etc. "See I bravely faced death!". You do know that in Early Christianity, this specifically was one of the leveled complaints about the cult of the martyrs by some of the Church Fathers, that they were taking a shortcut to God? This all is a form of escapism, in fact. And many, many people die in acts of escapism in its many forms and faces, including martyrdom.

If you're unclear what I mean about the inner demons and voices, read my previous two posts now before this one.

 

[Windwalker]

We think for ourselves so that within our own facts and circumstances, we can be in accordance with Torah.

"We"? What about you? Are you saying, you have to agree with the Prophets? Do you ever doubt? What do you do with that if you do?

 

[Quagmire]

Sorry, I probably shouldn't get involved in debate threads 15 minutes before I have to log out for the night.

Will pick this up again tomorrow.

Actually, on a re-read I realize that the OP isn't an invitation to debate so much as a self-aggrandizing sermon, so I think I'm going to leave it alone.

Agree? Disagree?

 

[Vinayaka]

...and those who tell us what to think so we don't have to.

It seems to me this is the core issue with believing in external authorities. It is a projection, an escape, of not wanting to deal with the difficult issues of navigating our own internal landscapes and finding our way through to Truth. We want others to tell us the way, so we don't have to take responsibility. "God said it, I believe it, that settles it for me," is a form of cowardice.

Agree? Disagree?

I agree mostly. Still, a teacher (preferably living) who has tread the path may have some excellent advice.

 

[Kenny]

...and those who tell us what to think so we don't have to.

It seems to me this is the core issue with believing in external authorities. It is a projection, an escape, of not wanting to deal with the difficult issues of navigating our own internal landscapes and finding our way through to Truth. We want others to tell us the way, so we don't have to take responsibility. "God said it, I believe it, that settles it for me," is a form of cowardice.

Agree? Disagree?

Disagree completely. No one is holding a knife to force anyone to believe it.

If one is caught between to opinions, it is natural for one to believe the word that one trusts the most. If one's child said so and so raped me and the other person said "no I didn't", the parent very possibly would say "My child said you did, I believe it, that settles it for me".

Cowardice? I don't think so. Confidence.

But you are welcome not to believe the prophets. See? I was right.

 

[Windwalker]

Actually, on a re-read I realize that the OP isn't an invitation to debate so much as a self-aggrandizing sermon, so I think I'm going to leave it alone.

Agree? Disagree?

Oh for god's sake. WTH is wrong with you? My god, I smell simple small-minded... jealousy. Damn, sorry, wow. Touched a small spot, did I? (shadow stuff) You'd do well to take a break before you dig your hole deeper.

 

[Windwalker]

I agree mostly. Still, a teacher (preferably living) who has tread the path may have some excellent advice.

I do agree. Exercise intuition when sussing one out though. Listen to the heart, not what makes you impressed intellectually.

 

[Windwalker]

Disagree completely. No one is holding a knife to force anyone to believe it.

However, depending on the preacher... many tell people they risk hell if they don't believe. That's much, much worse than holding a knife to a child's throat, isn't it? Have you ever uttered such words to an innocent one?

If one is caught between to opinions, it is natural for one to believe the word that one trusts the most. If one's child said so and so raped me and the other person said "no I didn't", the parent very possibly would say "My child said you did, I believe it, that settles it for me".

Not really sure your train of logic here.

Cowardice? I don't think so. Confidence.

You should read what I wrote a little more closely. You'll see in detail how I explain that it is.

But you are welcome not to believe the prophets. See? I was right.

Huh?

 

[Quagmire]

Oh for god's sake. WTH is wrong with you? My god, I smell simple small-minded... jealousy. Damn, sorry, wow. Touched a small spot, did I? (shadow stuff)

Wow, just . . . wow.

Wow.

I wish everybody's covers were that easy to pull.

 

[Vinayaka]

I do agree. Exercise intuition when sussing one out though. Listen to the heart, not what makes you impressed intellectually.

As you know, the intellect has never impressed me much.