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Thank you atheists...

ecco

Veteran Member
Some logical leaps there.

Buddhism isn't equal to metaphysics, but it has metaphysical elements to it.
What is Buddhism without the metaphysical elements?

I can go for a walk in the woods and think about the world condition without needing to light candles.


Metaphysics includes much in itself, including scientific cosmology. It'd be hard to think of Stephen Hawking peddling the supernatural.
The only people who try to incorporate scientific cosmology or physics into metaphysics are charlatans. They take things like paired particles and stretch it into "see, even particles have brains and consciousness".



Supernatural is a medieval Western idea about things being above "nature" that finds itself in the wrong place too often. Not all ideas are supernatural either that are called that.
People can, and apparently often do, try to separate metaphysics from a belief in the supernatural. Perhaps they are embarrassed by the connection.

Perhaps you can give an example of an idea/concept/belief that is erroneously labeled as supernatural.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
...To me that's confusing. However, it's built into the DNA that people are always searching for answers. I guess for some, gods and religions don't cut it. So, instead of just accepting reality, they turn to other supernatural venues to fulfill a void.

Read any good books lately?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
For better or worse, I get, "you are just like your mom".
Some people have parents who are better role models.
My father was socially awkward, abusive & violent.


I know, I know....you're thinking who am I to
decry someone else as "socially awkward"?
He was far far worse than I.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
What you did say was...

Then you went on to express a belief in Dharma (metaphysical / superstitious).

I pointed out that those comments are self contradictory.

Instead of arguing, read my posts.

1. The Dharma: about end of suffering; not superstitious
2. Yes. There is indian cosmology
3. Deities are like humans: they want enlightenment
4. The Buddha: is a theist

The Dharma's point is NOT superstitious

Buddhism is about The Dharma NOT at all about beings oe what you call superstitious as if superstition is a curse word or something. :rolleyes:

Read the posts and ask what I believe before arguing over your own assumptions
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Or, it was just a story explaining the big flood that took place several generations earlier. Embellished each time it was told.

Genesis is the story of the evolution of the relationship of a people to its god and how that people gradually came to understand the blessing and challenge of trying to "be good" in the amoral world that God created. It involved confronting natural disasters as well as human caused disasters. Negotiating the strange balance between humanities' freedom and the order of God's amoral creation is the ultimate challenge.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

Stop with the definition guys. I am not ignorant.

Show me where pantheism believes in deities.
You misuse words. When shown that you misused words, you plead that I stop showing you misusing words.

Then you ask to be shown the relationship between pantheism and gods.

I can give you my opinion and you could turn around and say "that's just your opinion". Or, I can show you what commonly accepted word usage has to say on the subject and risk you telling me to stop treating you as ignorant.

Kinda a rock and a hard place. So, I'll do both...

DICTIONARY
pan·the·ism
ˈpanTHēˌizəm/
noun
  1. 1.
    a doctrine that identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God.
ecco's opinion
Pantheism indicates a belief in god AKA deity.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
.
1.
a doctrine that identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God.

Where are deities in this context?

Deties: supernatural beings as in God of abraham or Vishnu or Zues.

STOP with the definitions and arguing. You either get it or you dont.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
English is not static. You got to use your own noggin' with definitons like god, marriage, and love. They are context words. Not so with apple, number two, and chair.
Using your noggin' does not give you license to redefine words like god and deity to suit your own needs.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
:rolleyes:

@ecco deities are: God of abraham, Zues, and Vishnu. Supernatural beings

God means an object or person of worship.

Some people worship deities as gods.

Others do not worship deities as gods

Pantheism believes ALL are god.

They dont believe "ALL" are supernatural beings.

Read the post
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I can separate my imaginings from reality. I have often stated that "gods are the creation of man's imaginings".

Sometimes that imagining is spontaneous and not of the will of the person experiencing it.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Of course. My hope is that my opinion is also based on scientific fact either now known or in the process of discovery.

I will acknowledge that reality, for some humans, is not enough. Some must feed on a big diet of moral-fantasy play in order to cope in this world.

Yes, and I would disagree with you on this. Do you not make use of or indulge in any form of fictional narrative in your life? Has it not given you any level of insight or pleasure?

I would include religion and metaphysics and all manner of supernatural beliefs in the list of moral-fantasy play.

Agreed.

When I had a 90 minute rail commute, I read a lot of good science fiction. Occasionally, I still re-read a few favorites; Time Enough for Love, Ringworld. I am and have been a big fan of video games. But, at least for me, it is about the skill required to overcome challenges and express creativity. In that regard, I don't see much difference between atheists and any other group of people.

Now consider the idea that you live in a world where you cannot pick up a book from a wide range of books...you can't even read. And your stories are controlled and given by a select group of men in your society as well as that other's stories are treated with contempt.

Now you see that one dimension of religion is based in part on the rarity and control of a resource that all humans need...to fill their brains with more than the mundanity of daily reality.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
@ecco Read the post, stop arguing, no definitions, or no debate

Pantheism: a doctrine that equates God with the forces and laws of the universe... and... At its most general, pantheism may be understood positively as the view that God is identical with the cosmos, the view that there exists nothing which is outside of God, or else negatively as the rejection of any view that considers God as distinct from the universe.

Pantheists believe all is god. They do not believe that the cosmos are supernatural beings. That is the major difference in context and content as well as in this case strict definition of the two terms in this definition different than each other not synonymous.
Buddhism is the practice of The Dharma

Because of our ignorance (avijja) of these Noble Truths, because of our inexperience in framing the world in their terms, we remain bound to samsara, the wearisome cycle of birth, aging, illness, death, and rebirth. Craving propels this process onward, from one moment to the next and over the course of countless lifetimes, in accordance with kamma(Skt. karma), the universal law of cause and effect. According to this immutable law, every action that one performs in the present moment — whether by body, speech, or mind itself — eventually bears fruit according to its skillfulness: act in unskillful and harmful ways and unhappiness is bound to follow; act skillfully and happiness will ultimately ensue.[13] As long as one remains ignorant of this principle, one is doomed to an aimless existence: happy one moment, in despair the next; enjoying one lifetime in heaven, the next in hell.

The Buddha discovered that gaining release from samsara requires assigning to each of the Noble Truths a specific task: the first Noble Truth is to be comprehended; the second, abandoned; the third, realized; the fourth, developed. The full realization of the third Noble Truth paves the way for Awakening: the end of ignorance, craving, suffering, and kamma itself; the direct penetration to the transcendent freedom and supreme happiness that stands as the final goal of all the Buddha's teachings; the Unconditioned, the Deathless, Unbinding — Nibbana (Skt. Nirvana).
Theravada Buddhism (Core of Buddhist teachings-at its brief)

Buddhism does have Indian Cosmology
Cosmology and Buddhism (An example)

Superstition: a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation

The Dharma is not a superstitious belief. Ignorance, fear of the unknown, magic, and chance are NOT part of The Buddha's doctrine. It's actually opposite of it. It's literally to train the mind from ignorance and focus on end of suffering so we won't be attached to this world and actually die. Nothing. No heaven. Nothing of that sort.

The issue was The Buddha didn't agree with practices of Hinduism (he was a theist; he practiced and believes in Brahma)

God: (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity. This is the definition you gave.

Where in this definition does it mention pantheist god is a superhuman being or spirit worshiped over nature or human fortunes?

Oh. #95, if you read it, helps my point


The knowledgable person looks to his books to live life; the wise person lives life by writing his own. (Carlita) ;) Got to think context and point of my post rather than posting from dictionaries.

What you did say was...

I did not say Buddhism (The Dharma) doesn't have Indian Cosmology in it

Then you went on to express a belief in Dharma (metaphysical / superstitious).

I said The Dharma is not about metaphysics. It's opposed to superstition in any sense of the word.

I pointed out that those comments are self contradictory.

I don't hold superstitious beliefs. All the beliefs I hold are specific to reality. There is suffering. We are attached. We have ignorance. We try to relieve our ignorance by knowledge. We die.

You're comparing The Dharma to Abrahamic superstitions. It does not match. No where near each other. Nada.

I'm not explaining anymore than this. Read it, leave it,

or stop arguing and talk plainly.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
For better or worse, I get, "you are just like your mom".

My parents were nerds before being a nerd was a derogatory term (which came way before the current state of affairs in which being a nerd is cool (on TV)).

My dad is into cars (there were no computers back then) but my mother was a computer programmer! Which is now my profession.

Yes, I am a nerd too.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Stop with the arguing.
We were having a discussion. I posted "you do not have a license to redefine words like god and deity to suit your own needs". You call that arguing. Well, maybe I'm just a stickler for using words as currently defined.
Read read my post. All of them.
I have read all of your posts that you directed to me. I have responded to them. I doubt re-reading them will change anything. I'm certainly not going to read all of your posts.
 
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