Thank you atheists...

[sealchan]

Oh, I love me stories about Magic, and Supernatural Horror, and Vampires -- all of that.

Most are pretty simple, really, with the Bad Guys being All Bad, and the Good Guys being good--mostly.

Makes for what the Greeks called Catharsis. Good for your mental health, or so I've read.

My only requirement for these Fairy Tales? Internal constancy: does the Magic System work consistently? Are there no glaringly obvious plot holes left dangling? Is there sufficient motivation for the bad guys as well as the good guys? These are the makings of a Good Story.

Alas, when I apply those same rules to the bible? It suffers greatly--- its not consistent at all, there are glaring plot-holes, and the bad guys? Suffer from a total lack of motivation. In fact, the entire story appears quite arbitrary to me. The "good" guys seem capricious and downright mean at times.

No, I'll stick to Star Wars, The Lord of the Rings, and Buffy The Vampire Slayer please.

I have actually found only one or two big inconsistencies in Genesis up through Chapter 36. That surprised me as until my recent close study it didn't seem to me to be that well written. What most believers don't realize is the depth of the moral relativism and the intelligent handling of realities most morally difficult aspects...they think that the Bible is some sort of morality play and totally miss the point (of Job).

Yes, the ability of an author to create a consistent "other-world" is a wonderful quality. This is perhaps why there is such tight control over Tolkien's work (perhaps until now) and why the Star Wars canon gets revised.

I just now finished watching the recent TV series Sherlock which masterfully retold the stories of Arthur Conan Doyle regarding the world's most famous detective. Wonderful!

Now let's do that to the Bible!

 

[sealchan]

Approx zero.

rigid reality is also not the whole truth.

No need to point that out.


who then experience some supernatural truth that is not "their own".

That is a topic for further discussion, other than for me
to point out that when you get one of those "Answers", you just keep stewing and pretty soon you will get the
opposite answer. Seemingly from outside yourself.

I had the darnedest time writing essays for just that reason...until I realized that truths are better represented by two different but equally valid perspectives in most cases. This insight lead to my Master's thesis on The Depth of Consciousness.

I suspect that the human brain from motor control to abstract concepts relies on the juxtaposition of two mutually inhibitory neural systems (whether a few neurons (afferent/efferent) or large organs of the brain (cortical hemispheres)) in order for the re-presentation of the world to take place within the human body.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I have actually found only one or two big inconsistencies in Genesis up through Chapter 36. That surprised me as until my recent close study it didn't seem to me to be that well written. What most believers don't realize is the depth of the moral relativism and the intelligent handling of realities most morally difficult aspects...they think that the Bible is some sort of morality play and totally miss the point (of Job).

Yes, the ability of an author to create a consistent "other-world" is a wonderful quality. This is perhaps why there is such tight control over Tolkien's work (perhaps until now) and why the Star Wars canon gets revised.

I just now finished watching the recent TV series Sherlock which masterfully retold the stories of Arthur Conan Doyle regarding the world's most famous detective. Wonderful!

Now let's do that to the Bible!

Oh, I agree, re: Bible. Especially the story of Job. The best-ever study I had of that story, came from a Jewish Rabbi, which ought to come as no surprise-- it's from their book, after all.

The essential summary of Job, can be put in a short sentence: "It rains on the Just and the Unjust with equal measure".

Or even more bluntly: "Bad Stuff happens to everyone, pretty much at Random."

This goes against the common theme that the rich are deserving of being rich, because they did something to deserve it, and being poor or afflicted by some calamity or disease, was because they did something deserving of it.

And the story of Job basically says, 'not really'.

A much better take on that story, than a more common one of "God is kind of a mean one, and enjoys hurting and killing people ... on a whim (bet)".

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Potentially anyone could. I assume certain rigidity of mind could prevent it. As you said, atheists are often our "natural ally" much to the dismay of some folks.

Secularists of the world, unite!?!?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

You would be correct in assuming that atheists hold no superstitious beliefs.

That would not be correct at all.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Secularists of the world, unite!?!?

Dyslexics of the world Untie!

 

[sayak83]

Well, you know, psychological research...

There is the old saying to the effect that despite
your best efforts, sooner or later you become your
parents.

Which apparently is caused by genetic inheritance. Identical twins separated at birth continue to show identical amounts of similarity with their birth parents despite one not being reared by them.

 

[sealchan]

Oh, I agree, re: Bible. Especially the story of Job. The best-ever study I had of that story, came from a Jewish Rabbi, which ought to come as no surprise-- it's from their book, after all.

The essential summary of Job, can be put in a short sentence: "It rains on the Just and the Unjust with equal measure".

Or even more bluntly: "Bad Stuff happens to everyone, pretty much at Random."

This goes against the common theme that the rich are deserving of being rich, because they did something to deserve it, and being poor or afflicted by some calamity or disease, was because they did something deserving of it.

And the story of Job basically says, 'not really'.

A much better take on that story, than a more common one of "God is kind of a mean one, and enjoys hurting and killing people ... on a whim (bet)".

Yes, and somehow we have all this childish God is Good childishness. How can people ignore Job? Oh, yes...they just interpret it in a way to make it work...or they ignore it.

 

[ecco]

ecco said: ↑
You would be correct in assuming that atheists hold no superstitious beliefs.
​

So your definition of atheism isn't lack of belief in gods, but also has quite a bit more to it.

Don't over-think it. My definition of atheism is plain and simple.

a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/
noun
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
​

Additionally, I hold no superstitious beliefs.

Until a few pages ago, I had not heard any atheist state that they held superstitious beliefs. Apparently, there are some.

What do you consider people who hold non-scientific metaphysical beliefs but who don't believe in gods? Because there are many of those.

To me that's confusing. However, it's built into the DNA that people are always searching for answers. I guess for some, gods and religions don't cut it. So, instead of just accepting reality, they turn to other supernatural venues to fulfill a void.

 

[ecco]

...I also aim to raise the issue to atheists that rigid reality is also not the whole truth. Imagination is also an expression of the truth of human experience. That imagination may come unbidden to people who then experience some supernatural truth that is not "their own".

I can separate my imaginings from reality. I have often stated that "gods are the creation of man's imaginings".

The human brain recoils from pure experiential-thinking-rationality by inducing imaginal-moral experiences to compensate.

You are entitled to your opinion.

We must acknowledge that reality, for us humans, is not enough. We must feed on a big diet of moral-fantasy play in order to cope in this world.

I will acknowledge that reality, for some humans, is not enough. Some must feed on a big diet of moral-fantasy play in order to cope in this world.

I would include religion and metaphysics and all manner of supernatural beliefs in the list of moral-fantasy play.

So for each atheist how much does science fiction or fantasy movies, stories, or games play a role in your life, your freely chosen time?

When I had a 90 minute rail commute, I read a lot of good science fiction. Occasionally, I still re-read a few favorites; Time Enough for Love, Ringworld. I am and have been a big fan of video games. But, at least for me, it is about the skill required to overcome challenges and express creativity. In that regard, I don't see much difference between atheists and any other group of people.

 

[ecco]

Atheist: believes no deities exist
Dharma: Teachings of liberation of the mind from suffering, its cause, by way of solution,a and implementing of that solution. The purpose is so that we can actually die. No life after death. No oneness with god. Accesstoinsight.org (or suttacentral) has good stuff on this.

I never said I hold superstitious beliefs. That's on you. You have to ask me first before making assumptions like that.

I can ask you or I can read your posts where you show your beliefs in Buddhism / Dharma.
Buddhism is metaphysics. Metaphysics is supernatural. Belief in the supernatural is superstition.

 

[ecco]

Pantheist believes in god but they don't believe in deities.

God of Abraham is a deity. Since people worship him, that makes him a god.

Your definitions of words are your definitions of words. Most people would rather go with standard definitions: god = deity= god. gods = deities = gods
God
ɡäd/
noun

1. 1.
   (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
   synonyms: the Lord, the Almighty, the Creator, the Maker, the Godhead; More
   
   
   
   
2. 2.
   (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.

de·i·ty
ˈdēədē,ˈdāədē/
noun

1. a god or goddess (in a polytheistic religion).
   "a deity of ancient Greece"
   synonyms: god, goddess, divine being, supreme being, divinity, immortal; More
   • divine status, quality, or nature.
     "a ruler driven by delusions of deity"
   • the creator and supreme being (in a monotheistic religion such as Christianity).
     noun: Deity; noun: the Deity

 

[ecco]

Oh, I agree, re: Bible. Especially the story of Job.

Or, it was just a story explaining the big flood that took place several generations earlier. Embellished each time it was told.

 

[Jumi]

Buddhism is metaphysics. Metaphysics is supernatural. Belief in the supernatural is superstition.

Some logical leaps there.

Buddhism isn't equal to metaphysics, but it has metaphysical elements to it.
Metaphysics includes much in itself, including scientific cosmology. It'd be hard to think of Stephen Hawking peddling the supernatural.
Supernatural is a medieval Western idea about things being above "nature" that finds itself in the wrong place too often. Not all ideas are supernatural either that are called that.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I can ask you or I can read your posts where you show your beliefs in Buddhism / Dharma.
Buddhism is metaphysics. Metaphysics is supernatural. Belief in the supernatural is superstition.

I never said it does not. I said its not in the purpose of The Dharma. It has a huge amount of Indian Cosmology. The Buddha is a theist (Hindu specifcally).

The Dharma, specifically isnt about metaphysics, like god is to christianity. There are deities who try to be enlightened too (The Lotus Sutra is a good example). Rebirth and suffering are not metaphysics.

Where is the metaphysics that specifically involves ending suffering?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Your definitions of words are your definitions of words. Most people would rather go with standard definitions: god = deity= god. gods = deities = gods
God
ɡäd/
noun

1. 1.
   (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
   synonyms: the Lord, the Almighty, the Creator, the Maker, the Godhead; More
   
   
   
   
2. 2.
   (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.

de·i·ty
ˈdēədē,ˈdāədē/
noun

1. a god or goddess (in a polytheistic religion).
   "a deity of ancient Greece"
   synonyms: god, goddess, divine being, supreme being, divinity, immortal; More
   • divine status, quality, or nature.
     "a ruler driven by delusions of deity"
   • the creator and supreme being (in a monotheistic religion such as Christianity).
     noun: Deity; noun: the Deity

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

Stop with the definition guys. I am not ignorant.

Show me where pantheism believes in deities.

The knowledgable person looks to his books to live life; the wise person lives life by writing his own. (Carlita) Got to think context and point of my post rather than posting from dictionaries.

Did you know the dictionary once had marriage is between man and woman? Also, did you know god also means object and person of worship?

English is not static. You got to use your own noggin' with definitons like god, marriage, and love. They are context words. Not so with apple, number two, and chair.

 

[Audie]

Which apparently is caused by genetic inheritance. Identical twins separated at birth continue to show identical amounts of similarity with their birth parents despite one not being reared by them.

Well, I dont care to dispute this.
As for me-
I've no doubt at all that a great deal of my
who I am, what I believe and how I think comes
from my mom.

We've all seen how the kids of alcoholics, abusers
become that themselves.

In general, I have as much use for psychological research as a creationist has for geology, tho, I must say, with far more reason.

 

[Audie]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

Stop with the definition guys. I am not ignorant.

Show me where pantheism believes in deities.

The knowledgable person looks to his books to live life; the wise person lives life by writing his own. (Carlita) Got to think context and point of my post rather than posting from dictionaries.

Did you know the dictionary once had marriage is between man and woman? Also, did you know god also means object and person of worship?

English is not static. You got to use your own noggin' with definitons like god, marriage, and love. They are context words. Not so with apple, number two, and chair.

Whilst we doth eschew equivocation, I have to
agree that people can get very tiresome with their
cut n paste of definitions.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Whilst we doth eschew equivocation, I have to
agree that people can get very tiresome with their
cut n paste of definitions.

Most definitely. It makes my hands contort every time. That and using scripture to converse, as if everyone reads it. It gets so old that I skip the whole thing if its without commentary as well.

 

[Audie]

Most definitely. It makes my hands contort every time. That and using scripture to converse, as if everyone reads it. It gets so old that I skip the whole thing if its without commentary as well.

We might extend Godwins law a bit, so that
a cut n paste from dictionary or scrip gets an
auto-lose.