That irresistable tree!!!

[Sasa]

I respect your opinion, but I don't believe I am.

In order to understand the Scriptures you have to pay close attention to every word. There's nothing that says they didn't know good from evil. They knew they shouldn't disobey God. They were commanded NOT to eat from the tree. If they didn't know and recognize right from wrong, she would have eaten from it long before Satan enticed her to. She wouldn't have had to have been deceived and tempted into doing it by Satan.

It's like when we're three years old, we'd run around all day long naked if we were allowed to because at that age we don't recognize that it's shameful. But when we grow up and start realizing that it is (because our eyes are opened and we have wisdom), we no longer do. That's exactly what happened to Adam and Eve. After eating the fruit, now they KNEW evil because they had gained wisdom via the fruit.

At the same time though, God recognized that they were deceived by Satan and not completely at fault, which is why He allowed them to live anyway.

 

[Katzpur]

Now that make much more sense. That's what I have been trying to say. How can Adam and Eve distinguish between right and wrong, without eating the fruit?

They can't.

 

[gnostic]

If they didn't know and recognize right from wrong, she would have eaten from it long before Satan enticed her to. She wouldn't have had to have been deceived and tempted into doing it by Satan.

We don't actually know how much time had passed between Eve's creation to that of her meeting the serpent, sasa.

It has to be at least after the 7th day. But the bible doesn't give us any time, after the 7-day creation. You seemed to be assuming that years had passed, but it doesn't say that.

There's nothing that says they didn't know good from evil. They knew they shouldn't disobey God. They were commanded NOT to eat from the tree.

If they knew right from wrong, then why on earth did God even bother put the Tree of Knowledge there in the first place? You are not making any sense. As it stand, the Genesis is not making any sense too.

 

[Katzpur]

In order to understand the Scriptures you have to pay close attention to every word. There's nothing that says they didn't know good from evil.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. If so, please tell me. If you're saying that they already knew the difference between good and evil, what was accomplished by their eating the forbidden fruit?

They knew they shouldn't disobey God. They were commanded NOT to eat from the tree. If they didn't know and recognize right from wrong, she would have eaten from it long before Satan enticed her to. She wouldn't have had to have been deceived and tempted into doing it by Satan.

I'm not sure I agree. She knew that God had told her that if they ate of the fruit they would surely die. It seems to me that that would have been reason enough for her not to eat it. It wasn't until Satan came along and gave her a reason to want to eat the fruit that she evidently thought, "Well, that sounds pretty good... becoming as gods."

It's like when we're three years old, we'd run around all day long naked if we were allowed to because at that age we don't recognize that it's shameful. But when we grow up and start realizing that it is (because our eyes are opened and we have wisdom), we no longer do. That's exactly what happened to Adam and Eve. After eating the fruit, now they KNEW evil because they had gained wisdom via the fruit.

Actually, it doesn't sound to me as if we really disagree all that much. They didn't know evil until they ate the fruit. If they didn't know evil, how could they be held accountable for choosing it?

 

[Sasa]

We don't actually know how much time had passed between Eve's creation to that of her meeting the serpent, sasa.

It has to be at least after the 7th day. But the bible doesn't give us any time, after the 7-day creation. You seemed to be assuming that years had passed, but it doesn't say that.

If they knew right from wrong, then why on earth did God even bother put the Tree of Knowledge there in the first place? You are not making any sense. As it stand, the Genesis is not making any sense too.

Well we do know that it didn't take 7 literal 24-hour days for God to Create the earth and for the Word to create every living thing on it. We know that a day to God isn't equal to 24 hours. And you're right, the Scriptures don't tell us that years had gone by, but I don't see how that matters. I sincerely doubt she was created, stood up and went for a walk in the garden and was immediately approached by Satan. I think it's safe to say that at the very least days had gone by.

I don't think God's motivation for putting the tree there really matters. Maybe he had plans for it at a later date, I don't know. That's God's business really. This story is really more about obedience more than anything else anyway. It fits in perfectly with the overall message of the Bible which tells us we should be obedient to God or there will be consequences.

I apologize if I'm not making any sense to you but I'm doing the best I can to relay what I believe. It doesn't mean you have to believe it too. If Genesis doesn't make sense to you, and you feel that you have to pick it apart and examine and disect everything in it - go ahead - but...maybe you're just thinking too hard.

Either way, I hope that you find what you're searching for.

 

[Hacker]

Since last year, I thought it was illogical to punish Adam and Eve for disobedience.

How can Eve tell right from wrong on what the serpent told her, if she hadn't eaten the forbidden fruit yet? If she didn't eat the fruit, then she really can't distinguish between good and evil, and between right and wrong, so she can't tell if the serpent was lying to her or not.

WOW, that's an excellent point!!:clap GREAT question! I never even thought of it that way.

 

[Sasa]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. If so, please tell me. If you're saying that they already knew the difference between good and evil, what was accomplished by their eating the forbidden fruit?

No worries hun, maybe I'm just not finding the right words to convey my thoughts. What was accomplished by eating the fruit was both Adam and Eve gained Wisdom to the fact that both Good AND Evil exist. Before, they'd never known evil. Only good.

I'm not sure I agree. She knew that God had told her that if they ate of the fruit they would surely die. It seems to me that that would have been reason enough for her not to eat it. It wasn't until Satan came along and gave her a reason to want to eat the fruit that she evidently thought, "Well, that sounds pretty good... becoming as gods."

Well, like it says in James 1:14-15 "But each person is tempted when he is drawn away and enticed by his own evil desires. 15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death." I believe that Satan could have used that to his advantage to tempt her into eating the fruit. Perhaps he knew that they had an inner desire to be like God because he held the same desire himself.

Actually, it doesn't sound to me as if we really disagree all that much. They didn't know evil until they ate the fruit. If they didn't know evil, how could they be held accountable for choosing it?

I think the simple answer is that it was because they disobeyed God. They could certainly be held accountable for that - just as we all will be held accountable for it as well.

Just keep in mind that while the story is true, it's told in a way so that it's also a metaphor. The Bible is both literal AND symbolic. There are dual meanings to SO many different chapters.

 

[!Fluffy!]

No worries hun, maybe I'm just not finding the right words to convey my thoughts. What was accomplished by eating the fruit was both Adam and Eve gained Wisdom to the fact that both Good AND Evil exist. Before, they'd never known evil. Only good.



Well, like it says in James 1:14-15 "But each person is tempted when he is drawn away and enticed by his own evil desires. 15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death." I believe that Satan could have used that to his advantage to tempt her into eating the fruit. Perhaps he knew that they had an inner desire to be like God because he held the same desire himself.



I think the simple answer is that it was because they disobeyed God. They could certainly be held accountable for that - just as we all will be held accountable for it as well.

Just keep in mind that while the story is true, it's told in a way so that it's also a metaphor. The Bible is both literal AND symbolic. There are dual meanings to SO many different chapters.

:clap :clap

Beautifully done Sasa - frubals to you.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Wow, talk about confusing an issue. First Adam and Eve did not have an awareness of good and evil before the eating of the fruit. Otherwise they would have been cast from the garden beforehand. Remember that one of the consequenses for having the knowledge of good and evil was that they could not partake of the fruit of Tree of Life and live forever (Gen 3:22).

Death was not the punishment for the disobedience, it was a consequence. The punishment was for Adam to till the soil (Gen 3:23). The punishment for Eve was that he sorrow in childbirth would be multipied and her desire would be to her husband (Gen 3:16).

While Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil before the fruit salad they did know that God had directed them not to eat it. There is no evidence that they were aware of any consequences except for death.

 

[Sasa]

"Converting to sin put Mankind out of harmony with Father. It damaged not only the relationship they had with Him, but also their relations with all of creation; for all of creation belongs to Father. This included damaging effects to Mankind's own self. They damaged the purity of their minds, their bodies, and most importantly, their hearts. By breaking Father's Law under a simple test, they brought enormous consequences upon themselves and their later offspring. That consequence was in them bringing evil upon themselves and their offspring. They also forced Father to uphold his warning of eternal death if they disobeyed. In that Father permitted offspring to be born after they had committed a sinful act deserving of execution was an undeserved kindness in itself. Had they both been executed immediately, there would be no race of humankind spawned through Adam; for Eve was also taken from Adam, so they were both of the same fleshline. Father would have destroyed all memories of all that would have been born through the Adamic line if the executions had been immediate, because they, as you all are, would have been benefactors of the sin. All of the Adamic line would have perished in Father's memory even before their conception of births, which would have never taken place. None of you would have ever seen life; and even if Father had created another human through the Word, that pair would have had a totally different human line of offspring.

In a way, it is better for all of you that Satan sinned first, enticing Eve to break Father's Law. Had Adam and Eve both sinned wilfully on their own, none of you would have been permitted to become life in Father's creation. If Adam had not sinned, and Eve had, she would have been executed, but a new mate from another rib of Adam's would have been created. In that case, all of you would have been in Father's memory, and only Eve would have been lost to eternal death. If Adam had sinned, but not Eve, then Father would have taken a rib from her and created a second Adam, and you would all be without sin, provided the new mate of either scenario passed a similar test.

When Adam and Eve had both touched the fruit of the forbidden tree, they sinned. When they carried the sin farther by eating the forbidden fruit, they took sin one step further by causing internal upheaval within themselves with feelings of guilt, insecurity toward Father; anxiety over what He was going to do, and shame for having committed a wrongful act in such a simple test. Because Father did not give all of His Laws as prohibitions. He did not say "You must not murder" or to say they must not commit any vile act, even though that is one of Father's Laws. He did not imply to the humans that he felt they were hiding inclinations that were grossly evil. He gave a simple test to allow them to prove they loved Him and wanted to live for eternity in paradise. Father never said it was a sin to be naked. By eating the forbidden fruit, they realized from within that it symbolized the knowledge of what is good and what is bad; in their own eyes, they decided on their own, once they realized they were naked, that it was wrong to be naked. In doing that, they decided to judge upon their own understanding what was good and what was bad. In Father's eyes, they had made themselves to be like Him and the Word in deciding what was good and what was bad. In doing so, they turned away from Father's counsel to their own inclination that was born from eating that fruit. Had it been evil to be naked, Father would not have placed them in the Sacred Garden in an unclothed state. By unrepent actions they continues to lean upon their own understanding to their own demise of eternal annilation.

Father's Law has been written upon Mankind's heart since the first human couple came into existence."

Romans 2:15 "They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts. Their consciences testify in support of this, and their competing thoughts either accuse or excuse them ."

---Supreme Cherubic Commander

 

[sandy whitelinger]

By breaking Father's Law under a simple test, they brought enormous consequences upon themselves and their later offspring. That consequence was in them bringing evil upon themselves and their offspring. They also forced Father to uphold his warning of eternal death if they disobeyed.

You place the word "Eternal" to qualify the death. God didn't.

If Adam had not sinned, and Eve had, she would have been executed, but a new mate from another rib of Adam's would have been created.

You just made that up. There is no scriptural evidence to back this up. The evidence would have been that Eve would have been expelled from the garden and banned from the Tree of Life. That one rib equated into the forming of Eve doesn't equate into every rib forming a new mate.

When Adam and Eve had both touched the fruit of the forbidden tree, they sinned. .

Technically there is no direct scriptural evidence that God said not to touch the fruit, only Eve's recounting of the commandment.

Father's Law has been written upon Mankind's heart since the first human couple came into existence."

Romans 2:15 "They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts. Their consciences testify in support of this, and their competing thoughts either accuse or excuse them ."

That is a misapplication of that scripture. It only applies to those who do good by nature without having a commandment to do so.

 

[Sasa]

You just made that up.

Actually, no I didn't. I'm just delivering the answer to the questions I asked of the Cherubic Order last night. You have the Free Will to believe it if you want - or not.

 

[Smoke]

While Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil before the fruit salad they did know that God had directed them not to eat it. There is no evidence that they were aware of any consequences except for death.

If there was no death before the fall, how would they have known what "death" was?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

If there was no death before the fall, how would they have known what "death" was?

The Merriam/Webster online dictionary.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Actually, no I didn't. I'm just delivering the answer to the questions I asked of the Cherubic Order last night. You have the Free Will to believe it if you want - or not.

I'm confused. Was the quote I attributed to you from someone else?

One can believe what they want but that does not make that belief scriptural. It also seems ridiculous to me to take a Biblical story and try and expalin it with non-Biblical concepts. Just make up your own story.

 

[Sasa]

I'm confused. Was the quote I attributed to you from someone else?

One can believe what they want but that does not make that belief scriptural. It also seems ridiculous to me to take a Biblical story and try and expalin it with non-Biblical concepts. Just make up your own story.

It says at the bottom who said it. The Supreme Cherubic Commander. Did you notice that he referred to God as "Father"? That's how they speak. They call him Father because God is their Father. Not everything they say can be found in the Scriptures because they didn't write the Bible but they were they were there when it all happened.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

It says at the bottom who said it. The Supreme Cherubic Commander. Did you notice that he referred to God as "Father"? That's how they speak. They call him Father because God is their Father. Not everything they say can be found in the Scriptures because they didn't write the Bible but they were they were there when it all happened.

When you want to quote people look down at the bottom right hand corner of the post and you will see a quote box. If you click on that the quotes will come up in the fancy boxes and be atributed to their source.

 

[Sasa]

When you want to quote people look down at the bottom right hand corner of the post and you will see a quote box. If you click on that the quotes will come up in the fancy boxes and be atributed to their source.

Yes, I know how to use the quote box. The entire post was a quote from the Supreme Cherubic Commander and it wasn't something that was previously posted on the thread. That's why it was in quotation marks and had his name at the bottom.

 

[Sasa]

You place the word "Eternal" to qualify the death. God didn't.

Just to clarify, what he's referring to when he says "Eternal Death" is the 2nd death in the Lake of Fire, which is eternal death because once there you cease to exist and are wiped from God's memory. It is where all those who are declared negative will go at Armageddon.

That is a misapplication of that scripture. It only applies to those who do good by nature without having a commandment to do so.

LOL! I can just imagine what the Supreme Commander's expression on his face would be if he read that. It's not a misapplication of scriptures. The Angels know all scriptures by heart. He was using it to explain that right and wrong is written in our hearts and they were written on Adam and Eve's hearts as well. They knew right from wrong and their consciences told them so. They acted like kids that had misbehaved and then hid from their parents. The GUILT was there inside them. We have to keep in mind that they like the Heavenly Hosts were endowed with wisdom at creation. They did not have to learn a language; it was all instilled within them.

To give an example: Ask the person if he feels deep down inside that it's okay to murder, steal, rape, rob, etc.? If he's normal, he will say "Of course that is wrong." But, is it taught from childhood up? (and even though it should be, because of TV and violent movies) Or, is it God's instinct from within? To show that it is God given instinct, all a person need do is view a person being killed, or raped. It's not normal, and so it makes one cringe and often be sickened to their very core. This is because it is inherited from God in our mental makeup to be in His image. We have retained many of those attributes. In order to overcome them, you must be taught otherwise, or, sear your conscience to not feel normal God given emotion. Adam and Eve posessed God's qualities, but chose to disregard his Law via their free will decisions.

 

[gnostic]

Well we do know that it didn't take 7 literal 24-hour days for God to Create the earth and for the Word to create every living thing on it. We know that a day to God isn't equal to 24 hours.

No, the Bible does say 24 hours. But it does equate each day as to being equal to day-time and night-time together.

And you're right, the Scriptures don't tell us that years had gone by, but I don't see how that matters.

On one of those days (during creation, but I don't remember each day), it does state dividing the year into seasons.