That irresistable tree!!!

[Sasa]

No, the Bible does say 24 hours.

There have been many debates over exactly how long it took God to create the world and there's nothing in the Bible that says His days were 24 hours long. In fact, it says quite the opposite. "Dear friends, don't let this one thing escape you: with the Lord one day is like 1,000 years, and 1,000 years like one day." 2 Peter 3:8

 

[gnostic]

I don't think Peter was referring this to the 7-day Creation. Quoting from the New Testament, only add new problem for people who don't believe believe in Creationism anyway.

Although, it is clear that they don't 24 hours in Genesis 1, it is quite clear that each day of creation happened in a single day, which includes daylight and nighttime.

God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, a first day.

...And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

...And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.

...And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

...And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

But the important one is the 6th day, when God created all sort of creature and lastly the first human - all on the 6th day.

...And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

Each day, he speak of evening and morning; the Bible may not speak of day as 24 hours, but it is certainly not years or thousand years. Speaking of years are mere speculation, and very loose interpretation. When you go through such wild speculation, then that shows poor scholarship.

I agreed with you that you can't always take the Genesis (or any part of the bible, for that matter) literally. Actually I don't even believe in the Creation, but you can only work with what you have, if you are to understand it.

I may not agree with the Bible or I may not believe in the Bible, but I do take scholarship seriously.

 

[gnostic]

If Adam had not sinned, and Eve had, she would have been executed, but a new mate from another rib of Adam's would have been created. In that case, all of you would have been in Father's memory, and only Eve would have been lost to eternal death. If Adam had sinned, but not Eve, then Father would have taken a rib from her and created a second Adam, and you would all be without sin, provided the new mate of either scenario passed a similar test.

I'd guess that you haven't read the Jewish legend, where Eve was not the first woman God created then, Sasa?

According to the Talmudic or rabbinic Haggada, God created Lilith first, after Adam, in the same manner. See Legends of the Jews, Volume 1, Chapter 2 (Adam). Do a search (with your browser) for the heading "Woman", and you will see story that was not put in the bible.

 

[Sasa]

I'd guess that you haven't read the Jewish legend, where Eve was not the first woman God created then, Sasa?

According to the Talmudic or rabbinic Haggada, God created Lilith first, after Adam, in the same manner. See Legends of the Jews, Volume 1, Chapter 2 (Adam). Do a search (with your browser) for the heading "Woman", and you will see story that was not put in the bible.

Yep, I've heard about Lilith, did research on it and asked the Cherubs if it was true. It's totally a myth. That's why it wasn't included in the Bible. Everything that should be in the Bible, is. That's why it says in the Scriptures we shouldn't add to it or take away from it because Satan had a hand in writing some of those bogus Scriptures too. (Like the Gospel of Judas for instance) It's just another vain attempt to lead people away from the Truth. Satan's such a nerd.

 

[Sasa]

I may not agree with the Bible or I may not believe in the Bible, but I do take scholarship seriously.

With all due respect, I think you're looking for reasons not to believe in the Bible. And that's totally your perogative, but I'll have to cease discussing it with you now because it's become apparent that any further conversation with you would only go in circles. I really don't sense that you're open to hearing the truth at all.

I will pray for you though; that your studies will open your eyes to the truth before it's too late. And I'm really being sincere when I say that because your eternal life could be at stake. The reason being is that this is what's in store for those who continue to reject the truth:

"to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor, and the day of our God's vengeance..." Isaiah 61:2

"The tumult reaches to the ends of the earth because the LORD brings a case against the nations. He enters into judgment with all flesh. As for the wicked, He hands them over to the sword [This is] the LORD's declaration." Jeremiah 25:31

"I tell you that on the day of judgment people will have to account for every careless word they speak." Matthew 12:36

"This, then, is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil." John 3:19

"When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,' and you do not speak out to dissuade him from his ways, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood." Ezekiel 33:8

 

[gnostic]

Yep, I've heard about Lilith, did research on it and asked the Cherubs if it was true. It's totally a myth.

True. But then again, I believed that the entire Genesis as a myth too. Nothing in the Genesis can be verified historically and archaeologically.

With all due respect, I think you're looking for reasons not to believe in the Bible. And that's totally your perogative, but I'll have to cease discussing it with you now because it's become apparent that any further conversation with you would only go in circles. I really don't sense that you're open to hearing the truth at all.

I will pray for you though; that your studies will open your eyes to the truth before it's too late.

But I am being as open as I can be, sasa.

I am afraid that believing is the easy part, sasa. Proving it to be truth with conclusive evidences is a whole different ball game.

The different between you and me, is that I believe what you called miracle, such as life (such as conception and birth) and death, I would contribute to be natural causes. I have seen no evidence of divine hand.

You can of course, believe what you want, because that's your perogative and privilege, and I don't dispute you on your belief.

However, if you are serious about not debating this topic anyone who don't share your belief, then you're in the wrong section of RF. The discussion section, does allow debate, so you might be comfortable in that section. RF have specific rules about debate and discussion, and you are currently in debate topic.

But I am not trying to drive you away from here. I can now see that you are relatively new here. I am sorry if I offend you by speaking openly about this topic, sasa.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Just to clarify, what he's referring to when he says "Eternal Death" is the 2nd death in the Lake of Fire, which is eternal death because once there you cease to exist and are wiped from God's memory. It is where all those who are declared negative will go at Armageddon.

You'll have a very tough time proving that directly with scripture.

LOL! I can just imagine what the Supreme Commander's expression on his face would be if he read that.

Just who is this "Supreme Commander?"

It's not a misapplication of scriptures.

Of course it is, just read the passage in context and it will become clear. If you really wish to understand why I'd explain it to you but I sense I'd be wasting my time.

 

[Sasa]

You'll have a very tough time proving that directly with scripture.

Revelation 20:14-15 “Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.” (HCSB)

"This is the second death, the lake of fire." The "second death" is a death of annilation from existence. You don't get reanimation from that death. You have simply been completely destroyed, and are out of creation's existence; that also means out of Yahweh's memory.

Just who is this "Supreme Commander?"

The Supreme Commander of the Cherubic Order of Angels. You can click on the website in my signature to view a picture of him.

Of course it is, just read the passage in context and it will become clear. If you really wish to understand why I'd explain it to you but I sense I'd be wasting my time.

It says narrowminded in your profile, not mine.

 

[sparkyluv]

Satan and The Serpent are one in the same. The angels existed before man. But yes, they could have still sinned because they had free will (just like the angels do). Satan, when he was with the Cherubic Order (and before he fell from perfection) was chosen by God as the appointed guardian over the garden of eden. He was supposed to watch over Adam and Eve and let God know if they sinned. Unfortunately... he tempted them into sinning and... well, you know the rest.

This Scripture backs that Satan was the Garden's appointed guardian.

"You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every kind of precious stone covered you: carnelian, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and emerald. Your mountings and settings were crafted in gold; they were prepared on the day you were created. You were an anointed guardian cherub, for I appointed you. You were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the fiery stones. From the day you were created you were blameless in your ways until wickedness found you." Ezekiel 28:12-15 (HCSB)

I never knew that.

 

[gnostic]

Satan and The Serpent are one in the same. The angels existed before man. But yes, they could have still sinned because they had free will (just like the angels do). Satan, when he was with the Cherubic Order (and before he fell from perfection) was chosen by God as the appointed guardian over the garden of eden.

Serpent and Satan is not the same thing in the beginning.

The name Satan didn't exist, until the time of writings in Exiles in Babylon and their returns, where Satan appeared for the first time in the following works, Chronicles and Daniel.

And there were no links between Serpent and Satan until the Jews were returning from exiles, and they began compiling the Talmud, Mishash and the Haggada, as supplementary texts meant to interpret and examine the laws and narratives in the Torah, as well as writings that existed.

The Torah are the books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and possibly the Deuteronomy; the supposed books compiled and attributed to Moses himself. Possibly, because most scholars today agreed that the Deuteronomy is now believed to be written in David's or Solomon's time, instead of with the 1st four books.

"You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every kind of precious stone covered you: carnelian, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and emerald. Your mountings and settings were crafted in gold; they were prepared on the day you were created. You were an anointed guardian cherub, for I appointed you. You were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the fiery stones. From the day you were created you were blameless in your ways until wickedness found you." Ezekiel 28:12-15

Sorry, sasa, but that passage referred to angel or the cherubim with fiery sword that barred Adam from ever returning to Eden, not Satan. And there are no link between that cherubim to that of the serpent.

So the Lordd God banished him from the garden of Eden, to till the soil from which he was taken. He drove the man out, and he stationed east of the garde of Eden the cherubim and the fiery, to guard the way to the tree of life.

You had ignored the rest of the passage, which is really about King of Tyre, mixed with that of the story of Adam.

Why God would punish the serpent, whom you think is the Satan, and then appoint this cherubim, whom you are also saying is Satan, as guardian of Eden and its Tree of Life?

That doesn't make no sense. It still doesn't linked Satan to the serpent. Nor does it link Satan to the cherubim with the fiery sword and guardian of the Tree. Even Ezekiel doesn't say that Satan is this guardian.

You are grasping on straws, and making all sort of interpretation, and forcing interpretation into Ezekiel's prophecy about the King of Tyre into whatever you like.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Revelation 20:14-15 “Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.” (HCSB)

"This is the second death, the lake of fire." The "second death" is a death of annilation from existence. You don't get reanimation from that death. You have simply been completely destroyed, and are out of creation's existence; that also means out of Yahweh's memory.

That is an accurate description of the second death, yet you have offered no scripture to show that this is related to the death that came as the result of the fall in the garden.

It says narrowminded in your profile, not mine.

Yes, I'm so narrow-minded that I believe what the scripture says in context without any ad-lib.

 

[gnostic]

I certainly would prefer to cease to exist, when I am dead.

I don't want no afterlife, thus no heaven and no hell. Not even reincarnation. No joy and no sorrow. No more pain or hardship. I don't even want pleasure or contentment. No God or gods, no angels or Satan.

Just simple nothingness.

For some reason, that seemed to frighten a lot of people (which is probably the reason people join cult or religion), but I would welcome no existence beyond the grave. One lifetime is enough for me.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't even want pleasure or contentment.... One lifetime is enough for me.

Okay, you've got to explain why you wouldn't want pleasure or contentment. Regardless of what you believe, it makes no sense to me why anyone would prefer non-existence to contentment. Seriously -- and please don't take me wrong here -- why even stick out this life if non-existence would be preferable. If you truly don't want or expect an afterlife, what's keeping you here?

 

[gnostic]

As i said to you, one life-time is enough.

If I lived a good life here, then that's good enough for me; one is enough. No thanks, but I don't need God's reward or mercy.

And if I had bad life here, then that's too bad. So why would I want to prolong it with a new life after death.

Seriously -- and please don't take me wrong here -- why even stick out this life if non-existence would be preferable. If you truly don't want or expect an afterlife, what's keeping you here?

So let me ask you the same question, you are asking me. If life is so good in the afterlife? What's keeping you here, if heaven is so good?

See, Katzpur. Your argument can be redirect at yourself.

Do you think just because there is possibly no afterlife that life is not worth living it here?

Do you seriously believe that the life here is only worth it, if you only believe in the afterlife?

My life has meaning here. I have family and friends. That alone make it worth living; not some books that's probably not true, or God who possibly don't exist.

It may not much to you or anyone else, but it is worth my time. As long as it has meaning to me, I don't give a damn if you or God think my life has no meaning to you or Him. I live my life for myself, not for God.

And even he does exist, I don't think he really care, unless you fawn and cower at his feet. He demands worshipping and obedience from the biblical Israelites. To me, he is no better than Satan, when Satan demanded Jesus to worship him, during the temptation in the wilderness. How is God any different from Satan?

Do you live your life only because of God or God's reward? Or is there more to this life of yours than just worshipping God?

 

[Katzpur]

So let me ask you the same question, you are asking me. If life is so good in the afterlife? What's keeping you here, if heaven is so good?

Well, for me, this life is essential to the ongoing progress I hope to experience. If I were to cut it short, it would irrevocably impact the quality of my eternal existence. In other words, heaven wouldn't be so good if I were to choose to end my life. It's part of an eternal continuum. The decisions I make during my mortality will directly influence what happens to me in heaven.

Do you think just because there is possibly no afterlife that life is not worth living it here?

Do you seriously believe that the life here is only worth it, if you only believe in the afterlife?

No, I don't, but it sounded to me as if you were saying that non-existence was preferable to existence. If you do not want to exist after you die, even in a contented and happy state, I was just wondering why you would want to exist now, when obviously none of us have lives that are always filled with contentment and happiness. I evidently misunderstood you, and I even get the feeling that you found my comments to be somewhat offensive. If that is the case, I definitely apologize.

My life has meaning here. I have family and friends. That alone make it worth living; not some books that's probably not true, or God who possibly don't exist.

Let's not worry about the books, okay? If you have family and friends that you love, why would you prefer that the end of this life be the end of your association with them? All I'm saying is that if God exists and would allow you to continue to be with your family and friends forever, why would you prefer not to? I'm sorry; I just don't understand.

As long as it has meaning to me, I don't give a damn if you or God think my life has no meaning to you or Him.

Wow! It appears as if I really pushed a button or two! Did I say anything about either me or God thinking your life has no meaning? If I did, please quote me, because I certainly wasn't aware that I'd done that. It just seems to me that if something does have meaning, it makes no sense to prefer it to simply cease to exist at some point.

And even he does exist, I don't think he really care, unless you fawn and cower at his feet. He demands worshipping and obedience from the biblical Israelites. To me, he is no better than Satan... How is God any different from Satan?

Do you live your life only because of God or God's reward? Or is there more to this life than just worshipping God?

Look, I don't fawn and cower at God's feet, and I find plenty more to this life than just worshipping God. But, in all honesty, unless you can manage to respond to my questions a little less emotionally, I would prefer to just drop the subject. I had no idea I was going to set you off like this.

 

[gnostic]

Wow! It appears as if I really pushed a button or two!

Sorry, Katzpur. But I am not upset or angry at all.

When I use the phrase "don't give a damn", I mean "I don't care", or more precisely I am just expressing my "indifference".

Perhaps, I should rephrase it, like this:

"As long as it has meaning to me, I am indifferent to what you or God may think of my life, and how much it is worth."

Using the word "damn" sometimes give a real negative effect, so it was probably a wrong word to use. I did not use the word in the context of being angry or upset.

 

[Katzpur]

Sorry, Katzpur. But I am not upset or angry at all.

When I use the phrase "don't give a damn", I mean "I don't care", or more precisely I am just expressing my "indifference".

Perhaps, I should rephrase it, like this:

"As long as it has meaning to me, I am indifferent to what you or God may think of my life, and how much it is worth."

Using the word "damn" sometimes give a real negative effect, so it was probably a wrong word to use. I did not use the word in the context of being angry or upset.

That's okay. It wasn't necessarily the wrong word to use. I use it all the time when I want to make a point. And by the way, I really happen to think your life is as valuable and worthwhile as you choose to make it. If I implied otherwise, I'm sorry.