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Thatcher and Socialism

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
The 80s were a bit mixed in America under Reagan. One indicator which is quite telling is that of real wages, which have been largely stagnant since the 1970s.

Homelessness also went up in the Reagan era, another key indicator of economic decline.

But there are other things to look at, such as the nation's quality of education and healthcare. Not sure how it is in Britain, but America's healthcare and education have deteriorated severely as a result of Reagan and his successors (which include Clinton and Obama, whose policies might be considered "Reagan Lite").

We have such a huge national debt, yet nothing to show for it.

The roads are falling apart, the infrastructure is crumbling. So many towns with boarded up storefronts, homeless camps, dilapidated parks and recreation facilities - relics from earlier times when things were better.

All the money we've spent on military has been pretty much wasted. We didn't even use it for conquest or to gain territory or to enrich ourselves with the spoils of war. (Not that I'm saying that we should have done that, but just sayin'.) But considering how much we've spent on just the Middle East alone, Americans should be rewarded with gas prices under $1 a gallon. I'm sure some US corporations and politicians have done quite well, but the majority of the common people get shafted yet again.

The pandemic showed us just how ill-prepared and vulnerable we were by outsourcing and sending all manufacturing overseas. As a result of such myopic, ill-conceived policies, we have shortages and supply chain problems.

The quality of a nation's leadership can be measured in any number of ways, but I think the most salient is to take an overall "bottom line" approach to where the nation actually stands in relation to the rest of the world and whether it has improved or declined on a relative scale.

Relatively speaking, Britain was pretty much on top of the world and at the peak of their power by the end of the 19th century, leading up to WW1. After WW1, the US surpassed Britain in terms of economic power, and the US probably reached its peak around WW2 and in the decades following, up until the early 70s, when we began a slow and steady decline.

I grow somewhat weary of the age-old debate over "socialism vs. capitalism," but I think capitalism has reached a certain plateau. Industrialism and world colonialism built up a huge amount of wealth for the major capitalist countries, which are still wealthy today in relation to most of the rest of the world. A large bulk of that wealth was acquired through methods which we now rightly decry and condemn as unconscionable atrocities and crimes against humanity - slavery, genocide, wars of conquest, expansionism, colonialism, imperialism.

But even if we set that aside, in a larger sense, much of our base wealth was built up at a time when most of the world was still relatively "untapped" and teeming with resources and open lands. Think of the Amazon rainforest in its pristine natural state, or the rainforests of Africa, or the Great Plains of the U.S. still teeming with buffalo - and the deer and the antelope play. So, yes, a lot of wealth was built up as many Europeans went all over the planet to extract those resources to build industries which made them even more wealthy and powerful.

But there have also been long-term human and environmental costs associated with all this exploration, colonization, and industrialization. We've taken both the good and the bad from all of this, and considering that most of us living in modern industrial society have grown dependent upon the structure and system which have been established, we've reached what I've heard called "the technology trap."

In essence, we've reached a dead end in that we've established a system for the acquisition and distribution of wealth on a global level, but the ways and means by which we acquired wealth, resources, and territory in the past are no longer viable or politically expedient in today's world.

There's also a question of just how much there actually is left in the world, in terms of resources. We can ostensibly still produce enough food to feed the world's population, but yet, so many still go hungry. The latest panic these days is over gas and oil - and whether there will be enough for people to heat their homes without going bankrupt. We hear about chip shortages for the long-term, and just two years ago, people were panic-buying toilet paper, because that really is something to worry about.

My main beef with capitalists, as it has been since the Reagan era, is that they seemed unwilling to adjust to what was very obviously a changing world than the one they were born into. They just wanted to maintain the status quo of capitalism and go on business as usual. Their motto and theme song were "don't worry, be happy." It was a drug to give people the illusion of "good times" when in fact, it was just a way of delaying the pain of having to adjust to a new reality.

America has been on some kind of hallucinogenic for quite some time. Of course, we've all heard the old trope of the guy who gets really drunk and wakes up the next morning and finds that he just slept with Donald Trump. He jumps out of bed screaming and wondering what happened.

Absolutely perfect analysis.
Let me tell you that extremes are never good.
We socialists do protect entrepreneurship. To us freedom of enterprise is sacred.
And both rightist and leftist policies are equally necessary for a macroeconomic system to work.

That is, both supply-side economics and Keynesian economics are essential. Neither can be renounced.

Back to the eighties, we had a golden era until the nineties. I recall when Craxi, our Socialist PM met Reagan.
The Craxian politics guaranteed real socialism, because there still was the real Left.

In 1992 something horrible happened. Since the financial elites could not stand that a successful socialist country in the West could set an example, they had to destroy the Italian Left. How? By a judicial coup d'état. Procurators started insinuating that socialist and communist parties had been bribed or funded illegally (actually funding parties is legal in any Western country). Today we know who wanted the coup d'état. The very same financial elites that back the American Left.

In few years all old parties were undone. The left was replaced by a party that is the exact copy of the American Left (it is called Democratic party, indeed).
It is rumored to be the American dems' branch in Europe.
 
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RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Capitalism has literally lifted billions of people out of poverty.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. Top down command economies fail, leading to oppression, limited freedoms, and poor economic outcomes.


Where are these billions of people who have been lifted out of poverty by capitalism?

What I see, from my perspective living in one of the world’s great hubs of international trade, are a handful of billionaires enriching themselves while millions are struggling to pay the bills and get by, others rely on food banks to feed their families, and still others are faced with the ever present threat of destitution. And this is in London. So I really don’t think you can possibly claim that lightly regulated free market capitalism is working, for any but the few.
 

KW

Well-Known Member
Where are these billions of people who have been lifted out of poverty by capitalism?

What I see, from my perspective living in one of the world’s great hubs of international trade, are a handful of billionaires enriching themselves while millions are struggling to pay the bills and get by, others rely on food banks to feed their families, and still others are faced with the ever present threat of destitution. And this is in London. So I really don’t think you can possibly claim that lightly regulated free market capitalism is working, for any but the few.


India, Africa, Brazil, China, and eastern Europe, primarily.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
If I understood correctly, Thatcher's philosophy is:
" if you are as smart as Einstein, you will become rich and famous, thanks to your intelligence.
And you deserved it.
If your skills/intelligence are very low compared to Einstein's, well, the State cannot and will not help you".

I am sorry...my vision of State and politics is light years away from that tragic and primitive vision.

If I am the State, my task is to guarantee happiness and spiritual fulfilment for everyone.
And spiritual fulfilment is possible only through labour, through an activity that gives dignity and social respect to the citizen.
So I need to have full control of the economy to create those employments that my citizens require.

The State shall serve the citizen... not the opposite
I would agree - this is where Brexit and Johnson have woefully failed though.
Both have been absurdly divisive
 

KW

Well-Known Member
Where are these billions of people who have been lifted out of poverty by capitalism?

What I see, from my perspective living in one of the world’s great hubs of international trade, are a handful of billionaires enriching themselves while millions are struggling to pay the bills and get by, others rely on food banks to feed their families, and still others are faced with the ever present threat of destitution. And this is in London. So I really don’t think you can possibly claim that lightly regulated free market capitalism is working, for any but the few.


The poverty rate has dropped from 68% in 1994 to 43% today. If we go back further the rates are even higher.

That's about 1.5 billion people just since 1993 who have been lifted out of poverty by capitalism.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I would agree - this is where Brexit and Johnson have woefully failed though.
Both have been absurdly divisive

Maybe it is time to acknowledge that there are financial and banking elites who work behind the scenes 24/7, in order to dismantle the Nation States of Europe.

Because a united Europe (and not divisive) is invincible. European countries, are weak alone.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Please show me where Thatcher described her policy as you did.

Good luck!

She did not describe it.
I said, that is what I understood from the video in post #10.
I said "if I understood correctly". If.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Scandanavian countries are not socialist. They have free market economies. For example, Norway has a top tax bracket of 39%.

Socialism is for free enterprise, indeed.

As the art 41 of our Constitution says, it may not be carried out against the common good.

20220325_185826.jpg
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
I disliked her,she was a self serving biatch IMO,privatising everything she could that made fortunes for the already rich,she got her title of Baroness and a £6000000 undeserved funeral,the Falklands war was a perfect distraction for how **** she was.

Labour MPs of course has some of the richest socialists you’ll ever see who really know the struggle of the poor lower classes as they only get paid £84000 a year and can claim for a second residence and staff,I mean how do they cope.

Whatever the reality is it’s the same cycle of bull**** that shouldn’t baffle brains.
 
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