The Absolute Truth

[shunyadragon]

The following quote with my emphasis...

<snip> and dump. It does not reflect what I posted in the past

Some written records are indeed hearsay..

• Mary tells Bill she overheard Ed recount the murder of the dog. Bill writes it down.
• Bill's "written records" are hearsay since Bill was not a firsthand witness to the killing of the dog nor of Ed's recounting of the incident.

The "written records" of Ballulahs conversations are hearsay because there is no evidence (actually, there are no indications) that anyone recorded them or if they had been recorded, how the recordings found their way to Shogi Effendi. You don't even make this claim. You just refer to vague things like diaries passed down from father to son. Utter Rubbish.

Lion: We don't have to look behind the curtain, Dorothy. We know he is an real wizard because he told us he was a real wizard.

Some written records are indeed hearsay.. So what?!?!?!?!

Utter Rubbish. Personally written diaries and records of one's own record of events is not hearsay, and admisable in a court of law.

Your posts continue to reflect an arrogant aggressive vindictive biased agenda against the Baha'i Faith, and all this amounts to is a coached fallacy of 'arguing from ignorance' on your part.Your argument is based on vague what think was recorded or not recorded at the time the events took place which is sheer foolishness.

My argument is simply based on the normal written and spoken communications within families concerning important events. There are volumes of untranslated scripture and personal communications of Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l baha, and Shoghi Effendi in the archives of the Baha'i Center on Mount Carmel.

In terms of the subject of the thread there is no claims of 'Absolute Truth' in terms of the perspective of the Baha'i Faith, but nonetheless @paarsurrey may be claiming this level of 'proof' in terms of the Quran.

 

[Riders]

If you were 100% certain that you knew the absolute truth, about God, the creation of the universe, what happens after death, etc...

Would you feel that any action necessary to get this truth out to the rest of the world would be justified?

No the it would only be my truth no such thing as the truth for the whole world.

 

[shunyadragon]

So you believe and expect rational people to believe, that Balullah had a 30-minute meeting a high-level Government official. Following the meeting, he met with Abdu'l baha, and relayed, accurately and in precise word for word detail the "minutes of the meeting". Years later, Abdu'l baha accurately and in precise word for word detail relayed the conversation to Shoghi Effendi, who likely wrote it all down.

I believe the information was written down and orally by Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l baha and Shoghi Effendi, because this is the normal route for recording important communication in a literate society

You have just described an example of a written record being hearsay. You have also just shown how nonsensical your scenario really is. Thank you.

Bull Hockey!

 

[Nakosis]

No the it would only be my truth no such thing as the truth for the whole world.

I agree actually. However some religions seem set on enlightening the rest of humanity to their truth, no matter what the cost. Well maybe not the religions as much as some of their followers.

 

[shunyadragon]

The point is that you want to / need to believe they were handed down. Because that's all you've got. You have no evidence for that belief.
The point is that you want to / need to believe they were somehow accurately recorded. Because that's all you've got. You have no evidence for that belief.



ETA: It's hypocritically funny that you would criticize someone else for doing the same thing.

​

I was referring to ancient texts. In the Baha'i Faith we have volumes of original texts by Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l baha and Shoghi Effendi. Judaism, Christianity, nor Islam have any of the originals or even close to the provenance of origin and authorship.

 

[paarsurrey]

I was referring to ancient texts. In the Baha'i Faith we have volumes of original texts by Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l baha and Shoghi Effendi. Judaism, Christianity, nor Islam have any of the originals or even close to the provenance of origin and authorship.

"In the Baha'i Faith we have volumes of original texts by Baha'u'llah"

What is its use when not even one among the Bahaullah's followers in the Forum has read all of the said "volumes of original texts by Baha'u'llah" in the original Farsi/Arabic languages, and even not all of them have been translated in English language? Right, please?
In this meaning Bahaullah's writings are just useless. Right, please?

Regards

 

[shunyadragon]

"In the Baha'i Faith we have volumes of original texts by Baha'u'llah"

What is its use when not even one among the Bahaullah's followers in the Forum has read all of the said "volumes of original texts by Baha'u'llah" in the original Farsi/Arabic languages, and even not all of them have been translated in English language? Right, please?
In this meaning Bahaullah's writings are just useless. Right, please?

Regards

Not Right, please! The Baha'i Faith does not claim the proof that you are egocentrically claiming concerning the Quran. There are many texts translated in many language and in the original Farsi and Arabic for any one to read.

. . . and you are side tracking the subject as I responded to it.

Respond to my post. Right, please?

What I was addressing is your problematic claim concerning science, the Quran and absolute 'Truth.' Actually the Baha'i writings do not claim absolute Truth concerning science. The do claim the spiritual teachings and laws for our age. The Baha'i Faith endorses science as the progressive evolving knowledge of our physical existence.

The Baha'i accepts the translation of the sacred texts of the Baha'i Faith in all the languages of the World as conveying the Divine messages of the e Baha'i Faith. Unlike Culture bond Islam, which claims one must read and understand the Quran only in Arabic,

 

[paarsurrey]

Not Right, please! The Baha'i Faith does not claim the proof u=you are claiming concerning the Quran. There are many texts translated in many language and in the original Farsi and Arabic for any one to read.

. . . and you are side tracking the subject as I responded to it.

Respond to my post. Right, please?

What I was addressing is your problematic claim concerning science, the Quran and absolute 'Truth.' Actually the Baha'i writings do not claim absolute Truth concerning science. The do claim the spiritual teachings and laws for our age. The Baha'i Faith endorses science as the progressive evolving knowledge of our physical existence.

The Baha'i accepts the translation of the sacred texts of the Baha'i Faith in all the languages of the World as conveying the Divine messages of the e Baha'i Faith. Unlike Culture bond Islam, which claims one must read and understand the Quran only in Arabic,

I said " not even one among the Bahaullah's followers in the Forum has read all of the said "volumes of original texts by Baha'u'llah" in the original Farsi/Arabic languages, and even not all of them have been translated in English language?"

Kindly tell us have you and or any other follower of Bahaullah in this forum has read all the writings of Bahaullah in the original Farsi/Arabic languages, please. Right, please?
I was told here in these forums that some members have read all of Bahaullah writings that have been translated in English only but all of Bahaullah writings have not yet been translated in English. Right, please?

Regards

 

[shunyadragon]

I said " not even one among the Bahaullah's followers in the Forum has read all of the said "volumes of original texts by Baha'u'llah" in the original Farsi/Arabic languages, and even not all of them have been translated in English language?"

Kindly tell us have you and or any other follower of Bahaullah in this forum has read all the writings of Bahaullah in the original Farsi/Arabic languages, please. Right, please?
I was told here in these forums that some members have read all of Bahaullah writings that have been translated in English only but all of Bahaullah writings have not yet been translated in English. Right, please?

Regards

What you have been told is meaningless here say. Nonetheless, there are many Baha'is who have spent there lives studying the writings Farsi/Arabic in the Baha'i archives in Haifa, Isael.I have visited Haifa twice and talked with some of those that study the writings, some now in their 80s+. I have read ALL the Baha'i writings translated in English over the past 50+ years in my own Baha'i library, and visiting the larger library in Wilmette, Illinois..I also have attended classes and seminars over the years that deal with the writings and history of the Baha'i Faith. Some of the seminars dealt with translation. I am sure others have also.

 

[Audie]

​

​

I see that you were unable to show where I used the phrase "rabid theists". I also see you failed to retract your slanderous assertion.

Instead of manning up and doing the ethically correct thing, you double down and also accuse me of "name-calling" by using the term "clowns" to refer to religious leaders.

You can see from the following quoted post that it was not me that used that term. It was a Christian who believes that it's OK to refer to some Christian leaders as "clowns"...

​

It is obvious that you can't keep track of who says what.
It is obvious that you can't keep track of what I said.
It is obvious that you are too lazy to look back and check before making unwarranted assertions.
It is obvious that you aren't ethical enough to admit you grievous errors.

Obvious too that our goddies tend not to
be good at distinguishing among the plausible,
feasible, and the specious.

 

[paarsurrey]

What you have been told is meaningless here say. Nonetheless, there are many Baha'is who have spent there lives studying the writings Farsi/Arabic in the Baha'i archives in Haifa, Isael.I have visited Haifa twice and talked with some of those that study the writings, some now in their 80s+. I have read ALL the Baha'i writings translated in English over the past 50+ years in my own Baha'i library, and visiting the larger library in Wilmette, Illinois..I also have attended classes and seminars over the years that deal with the writings and history of the Baha'i Faith. Some of the seminars dealt with translation. I am sure others have also.

So you have not read, as I understand, all the writings of Bahaullah even in the last 50+ years of being a Bahai.
Even others members in the forum who claim to be followers of Bahaullah have not read all of Bahaullah writings as I have been given to understand.
Even the so called UHJ ( who is responsible in this regard) have not cared for the translations of the remaining writings of Bahaullah in the past 150 years, perhaps it considers it not worthy of translation and presenting them before the world. Right, please?
So it is meaningless to take pride in "volumes of original texts by Baha'u'llah". Among other things It means those writings were/are never needed by the humanity and are just superficial writings. Right, please?

Regards

 

[shunyadragon]

So you have not read, as I understand, all the writings of Bahaullah even in the last 50+ years of being a Baha'i.

As I stated I have read the English translations.

Even others members in the forum who claim to be followers of Bahaullah have not read all of Bahaullah writings as I have been given to understand.
Even the so called UHJ ( who is responsible in this regard) have not cared for the translations of the remaining writings of Bahaullah in the past 150 years, perhaps it considers it not worthy of translation and presenting them before the world. Right, please?
So it is meaningless to take pride in "volumes of original texts by Baha'u'llah". Among other things It means those writings were/are never needed by the humanity and are just superficial writings. Right, please?

Regards

Not right, please?!?!?!?!

Too much negative speculation from you baised very negative antagonistic view of the Baha'i Faith without any knowledge on your part as to the nature of the Baha'i writings.

Still waiting for a constructive response in line with my posts concerning the subject of the thread . . .

 

[ecco]

Your posts continue to reflect an arrogant aggressive vindictive biased agenda against the Baha'i Faith, and all this amounts to is a coached fallacy of 'arguing from ignorance' on your part.Your argument is based on vague what think was recorded or not recorded at the time the events took place which is sheer foolishness.

Your comment about coaching is more of your nonsense. However, if you think I am coached, then you must know who is coaching me. If you are being honest instead of deceitful, then you should be able to post who is coaching me and the source of your information. If you don't, if you duck and dodge again, we will chalk it up to just another example of Bahai dishonesty.





ETA: Are you going to duck and dodge like you did with your false "rabid theist" and "clowns" assertions?

 

[ecco]

Your posts continue to reflect an arrogant aggressive vindictive biased agenda against the Baha'i Faith,

I do not have an "aggressive vindictive biased agenda against the Baha'i Faith". I am aggressive against any and all male bovine fees nonsense. There's nothing special about you and your superstitious beliefs.

 

[ecco]

My argument is simply based on the normal written and spoken communications within families concerning important events.

A position for which you have absolutely no supporting evidence. In other words, it is something you made up or were spoon-fed from other Bahai sources. Other Bahai sources who also have no supporting evidence.

It's...
How do we know what Shogi Effendi wrote about Balulla's detailed discussions with the heads of state?

Maybe someone was there and recorded them word for word.
Uh, no. No one was there to record them any more than there were any scribes who wrote down the Sermon on the Mount.

Maybe Balulla wrote it down word for word from memory after he left the meeting.
Hmm. That means there is no way to verify what was said. It's just his word from probably faulty memory.

Maybe Balulla mentioned it in bits and pieces as he recalled it over dinners with his son and grandson.
Hmm. Again, that means there is no way to verify what was said. It's just his word from probably faulty memory. But, what the heck, let's go with that one. After all, none of our sheeples will ever question it. When other people question it, we can just call them arrogant disbelievers with a hatred for our religion.​

 

[ecco]

I believe the information was written down and orally by Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l baha and Shoghi Effendi, because this is the normal route for recording important communication in a literate society

You believe! Sure you do. See my comments in post # 315 above.

 

[ecco]

I was referring to ancient texts. In the Baha'i Faith we have volumes of original texts by Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l baha and Shoghi Effendi. Judaism, Christianity, nor Islam have any of the originals or even close to the provenance of origin and authorship.

Muslims would disagree with you about their Koran.

I agree that you can probably point to many things that Baha'u'llah wrote. The problem is that most of his writing is unintelligible meaningless rants. Anything that Abdu'l baha and Shoghi Effendi wrote about Baha'u'llah is unsupported hearsay.

 

[ecco]

Bottom line your aggressive biased open opposition to all theism, and name calling 'clowns' and 'rabid theist' priori rejects and disbelieves all possible explanations to justify your agenda against theism.

Audie's post reminded me that you still haven't addressed...

I see that you were unable to show where I used the phrase "rabid theists". I also see you failed to retract your slanderous assertion.

Instead of manning up and doing the ethically correct thing, you double down and also accuse me of "name-calling" by using the term "clowns" to refer to religious leaders.

Is that part of your Bahai training - duck, dodge, evade, and hope that no one will notice nor remember?



Thanks Audie.

 

[sojourner]

I was referring to ancient texts. In the Baha'i Faith we have volumes of original texts by Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l baha and Shoghi Effendi. Judaism, Christianity, nor Islam have any of the originals or even close to the provenance of origin and authorship.

We have Paul's letters, original and written by him.

 

[Audie]

I do not have an "aggressive vindictive biased agenda against the Baha'i Faith". I am aggressive against any and all male bovine fees nonsense. There's nothing special about you and your superstitious beliefs.

"Nothing special" is the worst thing a
Goddie can hear about his faith!