• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Afterlife

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Religious argument is a complete waste of time. No one can prove jack, and all those that are still trying I feel are trying in vain.
I suspect we end up alongside others that think and feel as we do

how else to be happy?
how else to be fair?

what?.....no one survives the last breath?

not one in billions?
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
ahhh Thief,
No-one survives the last breath, but the `spirit` goes on, saying goodbye to the `Am` !
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
Maybe....there's not even a `spirit` in me,
just some chemicals dissolving into the Cosmos.
Like Peggy said: "Is that all there is ?"
 

Vaderecta

Active Member
I suspect we end up alongside others that think and feel as we do

how else to be happy?
how else to be fair?

what?.....no one survives the last breath?

not one in billions?

Do you actually get it then? That is how it works. Its like a fire. Stop throwing branches on and guess what no more dinosaurs but maybe something else show up. And they were around a lot longer then Sapiens were. It's almost like you have no idea what you're talking about.... but that can't be... You are the most sacred of all beings created in gods image... It's impossible right?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Do you actually get it then? That is how it works. Its like a fire. Stop throwing branches on and guess what no more dinosaurs but maybe something else show up. And they were around a lot longer then Sapiens were. It's almost like you have no idea what you're talking about.... but that can't be... You are the most sacred of all beings created in gods image... It's impossible right?
sacred?......as I stand before God and heaven?

let me be humble

heaven can shame my best effort on my best day
with only the least of display by heaven

I have a perspective about Man as compared to the angelic

i suggest we trend lightly
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
I was just wondering, since no one has reported on what it actually is. People just say it's a place your soul goes. Is it physical? Or is it ethereal? If the latter why recently are there questions that correlate to this current life, even remotely relevant to the afterlife. If it is a destination for souls then I'm guessing isn't physical.

The only think I can imagine would be close to 'heaven' would be a virtual world where any and all desires can be realized but not physically experienced. Although, new advances in technology may get us closer to feeling what happens to us in the digital realm.

But would such a place even grant you access to those desires when restriction of self in this world is part of the requirement to even get into heaven. What would have been the purpose of denial here if you had no restriction there? And once you get there can you still get banished to hell? There are so many questions. But a whole lot of it makes no sense.


Death is the permanent state of the time before our existence.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Death is the permanent state of the time before our existence.

I agree that that is most likely true, but I cannot be certain about it. But, since you are "Truly Enlightened" maybe you could explain (using your intellectual superiority) and educate all of us less intelligent folks as to how you became certain of this conclusion. :laughing::laughing::sweatsmile:
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
I agree that that is most likely true, but I cannot be certain about it. But, since you are "Truly Enlightened" maybe you could explain (using your intellectual superiority) and educate all of us less intelligent folks as to how you became certain of this conclusion. :laughing::laughing::sweatsmile:

If I were "Truly Enlightened", I would have anticipated this level of sarcasm and intellectual insecurity. My tag is only just a tag, except to the intellectually threatened. My rib avatar is a much truer reflection of my superior nature(best ribs in the world). I think even those less educated and intelligent people you mentioned, would know the difference in the levels of permanency between life and death. Maybe you should enlighten this special audience, as to why you are not certain of death's clear delineation? Maybe it is you that should accept your burden of proof, and enlighten all us more educated and enlightened folk? In the future, instead of appealing to pathos or making ad hominem attacks, just ask your questions.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I was just wondering, since no one has reported on what it actually is. People just say it's a place your soul goes. Is it physical? Or is it ethereal? If the latter why recently are there questions that correlate to this current life, even remotely relevant to the afterlife. If it is a destination for souls then I'm guessing isn't physical.

The only think I can imagine would be close to 'heaven' would be a virtual world where any and all desires can be realized but not physically experienced. Although, new advances in technology may get us closer to feeling whai t happens to us in the digital realm.

But would such a place even grant you access to those desires when restriction of self in this world is part of the requirement to even get into heaven. What would have been the purpose of denial here if you had no restriction there? And once you get there can you still get banished to hell? There are so many questions. But a whole lot of it makes no sense.
I could wax eloquent on all the various Jewish teachings of the arfterlife, but I don't think it would help you. It doesn't help you because it's faith based rather than empirical.

em·pir·i·cal
/əmˈpirik(ə)l/
adjective
  1. based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.
    "they provided considerable empirical evidence to support their argument"
    synonyms: experiential, practical, heuristic, firsthand, hands-on; More
Empirical evidence is the strongest evidence there is. If you really want to know what happens after death, you want to talk to people who have died and come back to life, and there just aren't a whole lot of those.

The nearest we have to that are those who have had what is called a Near Death Experienced (NDE). "Near" is a misnomer. These are people whose hearts have actually stopped so they are dead by medical standards. They do resuscitate and in a moment I will tell you what they report, which is amazingly similar across cultures.

But before I do that, I want to point out problem #1--are they brain dead? Science is discovering that a portion of the brain continues to live on for quite a few minutes after the heart stops. It could be that in the near future this ill influence how we deal with organ harvesting and such, as we may not declare death simply when the heart stops beating.

The most common thing in NDE's is out of body experiences. They will float above the operation table and watch themselves be resuscitated, for example.

Which brings us to problem #2 -- Some doctors are engaging in NDE research by placing poster board messages in their surgical theaters that can only be seen by someone high up looking down. So far, no one has accurately "read" any of these test messages.

The uncanniness of these NDE's comes from their similarity, despite differences of religious belief (even non belief) culture, geography, age, etc. The typical NDE includes some or all of the following: The individual senses that they are travelling down a long tunnel. At the end of the tunnel is a light that they are moving towards. When they reach it, it is a being of light, which is entirely Love. They will identify this being within whatever religious system they know, so for some it is God, for others Jesus, for others the Buddha, etc. Usually with the help of this being, but not always, they review their life. They see that every thing that happened was for a reason, so that they could learn and grow, even the mistakes that they made became opportunities to change. Finally they move towards a barrier. On the other side are friends and relatives who have passed on who are waiting to welcome them. But for some reason they are either told it is not yet their time, or they feel pulled back, and they do not cross over the barrier. They return to their bodies and are alive.

Now you know everything that is empirical. Is it actually the afterlife they are visiting? Or is it the last death throes of a dying brain before it shuts down completely? You'll have to decide. Or... perhaps you'll be like me and not decide at all, but simply put it all on hold until the future provides more evidence to fill in the holes.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
If I were "Truly Enlightened", I would have anticipated this level of sarcasm and intellectual insecurity. My tag is only just a tag, except to the intellectually threatened. My rib avatar is a much truer reflection of my superior nature(best ribs in the world). I think even those less educated and intelligent people you mentioned, would know the difference in the levels of permanency between life and death. Maybe you should enlighten this special audience, as to why you are not certain of death's clear delineation? Maybe it is you that should accept your burden of proof, and enlighten all us more educated and enlightened folk? In the future, instead of appealing to pathos or making ad hominem attacks, just ask your questions.

The burden of proof is on you, because you made an unproven assertion of certainty. anyway, those barbecued ribs do look good.:D
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
The burden of proof is on you, because you made an unproven assertion of certainty. anyway, those barbecued ribs do look good.:D


Like me, you are truly a person with good taste. Rather than go through all the reasons I am certain that death and non-existence are both permanent, let me ask why you are not certain that it is? Is there any proven examples of past-life experiences? Are there any proven examples of dead people returning to work, or making contact with the living? Are you aware of the passage of billions of years past, before you became consciously aware of yourself? All are states of non-existence, including facts that are self-evident. Do I really need to deposit pages of proof to support my claim, when all you need to deposit is just ONE exception to justify yours? Or, is your uncertainty based only on your being uncertain?

I know that there is a rumor out there, that we can't be certain of anything. But I believe that we can be certain of some things. Death being the permanent state of non-existence, is certainly one of those things. The burden of proof is on you to find any exceptions to my certainty claim, to justify your uncertainty claim. Otherwise, it would be the same as claiming that I wasn't certain about the existence of the Easter Bunny, or Santa Clause. And then asserting that you have the burden of proof to disprove my uncertainty claim. This is not logically consistent.
 
Last edited:

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Like me, you are truly a person with good taste. Rather than go through all the reasons I am certain that death and non-existence are both permanent, let me ask why you are not certain that it is? Is there any proven examples of past-life experiences? Are there any proven examples of dead people returning to work, or making contact with the living? Are you aware of the passage of billions of years past, before you became consciously aware of yourself? All are states of non-existence, including facts that are self-evident. Do I really need to deposit pages of proof to support my claim, when all you need to deposit is just ONE exception to justify yours? Or, is your uncertainty based only on your being uncertain?

I know that there is a rumor out there, that we can't be certain of anything. But I believe that we can be certain of some things. Death being the permanent state of non-existence, is certainly one of those things. The burden of proof is on you to find any exceptions to my certainty claim, to justify your uncertainty claim. Otherwise, it would be the same as claiming that I wasn't certain about the existence of the Easter Bunny, or Santa Clause. And then asserting that you have the burden of proof to disprove my uncertainty claim. This is not logically consistent.

I dunno. I'm not a philosophy expert. But as for me I'm not certain Santa Claus and Easter Bunny don't exist. I'm 99.999999% sure, but if I saw Santa Claus going down my chimney and was able to photograph him and document physical evidence, then I'd change my mind. Being certain that Santa Claus doesn't exist would mean rejecting such a physical encounter as a hallucination, even if there were physical evidence. Of course it's all hypothetical, but I think you're throwing around the term "certainty" too much without considering its actual implications.
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
I dunno. I'm not a philosophy expert. But as for me I'm not certain Santa Claus and Easter Bunny don't exist. I'm 99.999999% sure, but if I saw Santa Claus going down my chimney and was able to photograph him and document physical evidence, then I'd change my mind. Being certain that Santa Claus doesn't exist would mean rejecting such a physical encounter as a hallucination, even if there were physical evidence. Of course it's all hypothetical, but I think you're throwing around the term "certainty" too much without considering its actual implications.


Neither am I. I see philosophy as having no practical use. I think that you are confusing certainty with "absolute certainty." We are actually in agreement, especially concerning all falsifiable claims. The difference is, that my level of certainty(something being reliably true), is based directly on the convergence of evidence, not absolute or complete evidence. Yours's is simply the acknowledgement of doubt, which is always a given, because the probability for error will always exist. Your method allows for even unfalsifiable claims to have merit. When you are dead, there is no doubt if you'll be rejoining the living again. There is no uncertainty or margin for error, if you will only be in a permanent state of nonexistence. Can we be certain that no one can live forever? Or, are we just 99.99999% certain?
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
Ahhh...the nonexistence...that permanence of nothingness.
The fear for most people, the fantasy of Nirvana or Heaven.
The lack of being, the singularity of not being oneself at all.
We all fear the end, don't we? In the real end, we won't care.
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
Ahhh...the nonexistence...that permanence of nothingness.
The fear for most people, the fantasy of Nirvana or Heaven.
The lack of being, the singularity of not being oneself at all.
We all fear the end, don't we? In the real end, we won't care.


I don't fear the permanency of nothingness, or the end of self. I experience this every morning before I wake up. I experience this during the time before I existed. I experience this every time I am unconscious. I experience this because I have evolved with no perception/conception of time past or time future. Only humans have the cognitive capacity to be awareness of their own mortality. Maybe in the future this gene will also be repressed or silenced. Maybe then there will be no need for religions.

So NO, I do not fear the permanency of my lack of being. Or, the nature of HOW my existence will end. In the end, time, space, all sensations and mental conceptions, will simply collapse into a void and dissipate. We should spend our lives as if we will live forever, not living it in fear of our own mortality.
 
Top