The Age of Consent: Culture-Dependent or Universally Objective?

[Debater Slayer]

Recently, I found out that the age of consent in some European countries is as young as 14 and 15:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

For example, in Germany, Italy, and Portugal, it's 14. In France and Denmark, it's 15.

I also thought this was worth bringing up for discussion (highlighting mine):

The general age of consent in Austria is 14, as specified by Section 206[9] of the penal code. (The term unmündig is specified in Section 74[10] of the penal code.) Paragraph 4 of Section 206 defines a close-in-age exception of max. three years.

However, Section 207b[11] of the penal code contains an exception to the general age of consent: if one of the partners is younger than 16 years of age and "not sufficiently mature to understand the significance of the act", then the act is punishable.

The offence "initiating sexual contacts with minors under 14 through the use of computer system" is punishable by two years imprisonment (Section 208a Penal Code).

What I understand from that is that cyber-sex with a minor is punishable by only two years in prison. I find that atrociously messed up if that's the case.

What makes me even more puzzled about how low the age of consent is in some of those European countries is that we're talking about first-world countries like Germany and France here, not, say, Yemen or Iran. Low education and poverty don't seem to me to be an explanation for the low age of consent in the case of said European countries.

Thoughts? Is the age of consent largely culture-dependent, or do those European countries practically legally sanction child rape? And if so many of those European countries sanction child rape, are there any reports of widespread problems among European adults who believe they were raped after having sex as young teenagers and/or are experiencing trauma from having sex at such a young age?

Note: Encouraging engagement in activities that are illegal under U.S. law or mentioning personal engagement in them is a violation of Rule 6 of the forum rules. This thread is to discuss whether the age of consent is largely culture-dependent and whether some European countries legally sanction child rape. It is not to be used to voice encouragement for having sex with minors according to U.S. law.

Thank you.

 

[Aquitaine]

It's always been a moving target: as technology and quality of life increases it honestly wouldn't surprise me if the age of consent (drugs/military/sex etc) was to reach as high as 25 in the developed future world.

 

[Debater Slayer]

It's always been a moving target: as technology and quality of life increases it honestly wouldn't surprise me if the age of consent (drugs/military/sex etc) was to reach as high as 25 in the developed future world.

Germany is one of the world's most developed countries, and so is France. How do you explain the low age of consent there?

 

[Aquitaine]

Germany is one of the world's most developed countries, and so is France. How do you explain the low age of consent there?

No idea if I'm honest, must be more liberal cultural attitudes to sex in general. Granted, sex is more of a tricky one, but I reckon in future developed nations people will become legal 'Adults' at age 25: to match with neuroscientific research regard brain maturity etc.

 

[Revoltingest]

Both culturally & situationally dependent.

 

[LuisDantas]

I would expect the real age of consent to be strongly dependent on the culture, yes. And to a significant degree even on the specific family.

IMO, that age will be defined mainly by how assured the children's parents are in presenting them a functional understanding of sexuality at each age. So I would expect that sufficiently mature parents would indeed raise 14 year olders that are fully capable of knowing whether they consent or not.

In poorer societies, not so much. Poor people tend to have less time to spend with their children and less quality of overall communication with them. They end up relying considerably more on the social influences to warn and give references to their children.

 

[LuisDantas]

Why would more developed societies have a harder time raising functional, aware adults?

 

[Flankerl]

What I understand from that is that cyber-sex with a minor is punishable by only two years in prison. I find that atrociously messed up if that's the case.

Uh no.
(how do I translate that...)

If you use a telecommunication service (telephone, internet....) or another way of deception and contact a minor with the intent to do anything listed from §201 till §207 (pornographic pictures, sex...........) then you are up for a prison sentence up to two months.


Cyber-sex is obviously already not only the intent but an act and thus does not fall under this.

For example, in Germany,...., it's 14

Nope.
"The age of consent in Germany is 14, as long as a person over the age of 21 does not exploit a 14- to 15-year-old person's lack of capacity for sexual self-determination, in which case a conviction of an individual over the age of 21 requires a complaint from the younger individual; being over 21 and engaging in sexual relations with a minor of that age does not constitute an offense by itself. Otherwise the age of consent is 16, although provisions protecting minors against abuse apply until the age of 18 (under Section 182(1), it is illegal to engage in sexual activity with a person under 18 "by taking advantage of an exploitative situation"[36])."

 

[SomeRandom]

Recently, I found out that the age of consent in some European countries is as young as 14 and 15:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

For example, in Germany, Italy, and Portugal, it's 14. In France and Denmark, it's 15.

I also thought this was worth bringing up for discussion (highlighting mine):



What I understand from that is that cyber-sex with a minor is punishable by only two years in prison. I find that atrociously messed up if that's the case.

What makes me even more puzzled about how low the age of consent is in some of those European countries is that we're talking about first-world countries like Germany and France here, not, say, Yemen or Iran. Low education and poverty don't seem to me to be an explanation for the low age of consent in the case of said European countries.

Thoughts? Is the age of consent largely culture-dependent, or do those European countries practically legally sanction child rape? And if so many of those European countries sanction child rape, are there any reports of widespread problems among European adults who believe they were raped after having sex as young teenagers and/or are experiencing trauma from having sex at such a young age?

Note: Encouraging engagement in activities that are illegal under U.S. law or mentioning personal engagement in them is a violation of Rule 6 of the forum rules. This thread is to discuss whether the age of consent is largely culture-dependent and whether some European countries legally sanction child rape. It is not to be used to voice encouragement for having sex with minors according to U.S. law.

Thank you.

Well no, the highlighted part was not Cyber Sex. Cyber sex is sending naked pictures or otherwise engaging in sex acts via an internet chat device or webcam chat. It's all the rage with today's teens.

What you just highlighted is basically the Chris Hanson sting operation, to catch a predator. Where an adult uses a chat room to groom and ultimately to try to initiate a sex act with a minor. It's more intent to harm a minor than a charge about actually harming a minor. But I don't know much about Austrian law, so don't quote me on that. But bear in mind that the people in that sting operation probably did only receive 2 years prison time. And America is far more harsh, at least legally speaking, with the whole age of consent thing (albeit inconsistently state to state.)

I'd argue age of consent is largely cultural. But age of consent, especially it it's below 18, is not clear cut. Most of the time it will have many many distinct nuances written into the law. In Australia ours is 16, with the caveat that an older partner has to be within a 7 year age gap, cannot be a trusted legal guardian of any kind (teacher, foster parent etc) with certain leeway given to partners of comparable age. (One would agree that a 15 year old having non coerced sex with their 16 year old girlfriend/boyfriend should not end in statutory rape charges.) I sincerely doubt an American who lives in a State with the age of consent being 21 would view that as anything other than disgusting. But to someone who grew up in Australia, it's seen as totally normal.

One must also remember that kids are having sex younger and younger these days anyway. Especially cyber sex. The law should be mindful of this, lest a teenager be charged with distribution of child pornography for sending naked photos of themselves to their boy/girlfriend.

You seem to be aghast that "developed nations" could possibly have an age of consent law as low as it is. I see it as these developed nations being realistic about teenage sex and pragmatic about their approach to it, rather than having kids on the sex offender registry for what is ultimately harmless teenage shenanigans.

I'd also like to throw this theory into the mix.
Cultural reaction to a minor having sex can influence how severe the trauma is. If society tells a minor who had sex at a relatively young age that they should be utterly gutted from a sexual experience that young, this can exacerbate or even create trauma within the minor and colour how they see and react to the experience.
This is even true among sexual abuse victims. When a child does not react strongly to the abuse, or even at all (and this does actually happen) society implicitly or even explicitly tells them that they are merely masking the "real" affect it has had and therefore they feel pressured to either feel inadequate and broken or try to heighten the trauma they experience. That's obviously not to say a predator should have free reign to abuse children. Ew. But one should be mindful that the black and white approach to sexual abuse of minors can actually detrimentally affect actual children who were sexually abused themselves.

(Please note I am not at all encouraging sex with minors or even defending it. Far from it. This is merely for discussion sake.)

 

[VioletVortex]

I don't see issue in two consenting minors 14 or older having consensual sex. I also don't see any reason why anyone else should think differently, other than moral outrage; which should not be a political force in America. Safe sex is virtually harmless. Sex ed should be required heavily in all schools, private or public. They need to stop teaching abstinence only bull****. Kids need to know how to put on a condom by the age of 13.

There's a cultural stigma surrounding sex in most cultures that makes it taboo in most situations. Also, people tend to attach strong emotions to sex, and it "emotionally affects" people too much. Age of consent is mostly culture based. In nor liberal European countries, it's obviously lower and more reasonable. In many countries, age of consent laws aren't really based on actual safety as much as the thought "But their just too young to be having sex!".

 

[Skwim]

This thread is to discuss whether the age of consent is largely culture-dependent and whether some European countries legally sanction child rape.

Do you really believe that those making the laws in these countries could have thought,"Yeah let's sanction child rape"? If not, then what is your point in bringing it up?


.

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't see issue in two consenting minors 14 or older having consensual sex. I also don't see any reason why anyone else should think differently, other than moral outrage; which should not be a political force in America.

Why not?

Safe sex is virtually harmless. Sex ed should be required heavily in all schools, private or public. They need to stop teaching abstinence only bull****. Kids need to know how to put on a condom by the age of 13.

Fair enough. Except that the families should still be prepared to deal somehow with the possible consequences. Even safe sex may have consequences.

Mind you, I am not implying that abstinence should be sold as a workable alternative. It isn't really.

There's a cultural stigma surrounding sex in most cultures that makes it taboo in most situations. Also, people tend to attach strong emotions to sex, and it "emotionally affects" people too much. Age of consent is mostly culture based. In nor liberal European countries, it's obviously lower and more reasonable. In many countries, age of consent laws aren't really based on actual safety as much as the thought "But their just too young to be having sex!".

It is safety by a certain perspective. Youngsters need some protection from their parents and family.

 

[Mindmaster]

Lowest age I know of is Mexico at 12, lol. Anyway, I am not concerned with the prosecution of consensual relations in most cases, only that reasonable age gaps are enforced for younger people. It's not much concern to me if two people age 12 are fooling around, but there is something completely wrong with someone age 12 messing around with someone age 21.I think hitting it from the age angle is wrong outside of the age gap angle which is the real problem.

 

[Skwim]

Lowest age I know of is Mexico at 12, lol. Anyway, I am not concerned with the prosecution of consensual relations in most cases, only that reasonable age gaps are enforced for younger people. It's not much concern to me if two people age 12 are fooling around, but there is something completely wrong with someone age 12 messing around with someone age 21.I think hitting it from the age angle is wrong outside of the age gap angle which is the real problem.

The age of consent in Mexico depends on where one is. It varies from puberty, which can range from about 8 to around 14, to "less than 12," 12, and 14.

In the USA, depending on the State, it's 16,17, or 18
source

In Europe it is 14, 15, 16, 17, or 18 depending on the country.
source

"The highest Age of Consent in the world is 21 in Bahrain. The second-highest age of consent is 20 in South Korea,

The lowest Age of Consent in the world is 11, in Nigeria.

Several Middle Eastern and African countries have no legal age of consent, but ban all sexual relations outside of marriage. This has raised concerns by many international organizations, especially in some countries where girls are married at as young as 9 or 10 years old. Countries with marriage-based ages of consent include Afghanistan, Iran, Kuwait, Libya, Maldives, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and the UA
source


.​

.

 

[VioletVortex]

The age of consent should be where we deem kids responsible and intelligent enough to understand the repercussions of having sex and consent.
Unfortunately, if we were to apply that to America (and the 51st state of course), all sex would be illegal.

Yes. I think it's around 14. At 14, a person should be intelligent enough to understand STDs and pregnancy, and how to prevent them. Yes, contraception can fail, which is why we have abortions and post exposure prophylaxis.

If someone is old enough to understand the repercussions, and fails to understand, it's their fault if the experience repercussions. They were warned.

The biggest problem is societies attitude towards sex. When society has that attitude it has about sex, it's really hard for teenagers to get condoms because their parents won't let them, or they're embarrassed. Also, because society sees sex as "bad", young people see it as cool, and that makes them want to rebel and do it regardless of any other reasons. Not that they shouldn't do it, but I'm sure that does lead to teen pregnancy.

 

[Aquitaine]

Why would more developed societies have a harder time raising functional, aware adults?

I'm just guessing based off historical differences over time. If you go back long enough "teenagers" weren't considered a stage in one's development: you just had "children" and "adults". Hell go back even further and the concept of "childhood" wasn't even a thing, though sadly in poorer countries that's still a problem.

It appears that over time as we get more wealthy and technologically advanced, we afford a luxury of "delaying" certain areas of responsibility/development with children.

Again, that's just an observation. Hope that makes sense.

 

[VioletVortex]

I think the consent part of it is the most important

Well, whenever I speak of sex, I generally assume it to be consensual.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I would expect the real age of consent to be strongly dependent on the culture, yes. And to a significant degree even on the specific family.

IMO, that age will be defined mainly by how assured the children's parents are in presenting them a functional understanding of sexuality at each age. So I would expect that sufficiently mature parents would indeed raise 14 year olders that are fully capable of knowing whether they consent or not.

In poorer societies, not so much. Poor people tend to have less time to spend with their children and less quality of overall communication with them. They end up relying considerably more on the social influences to warn and give references to their children.

If having the maturity to give informed consent depends to a significant degree on the specific family, which standard should lawmakers go by when deciding the age of consent in any given country? That is, where would the line be drawn so that there is absolutely no doubt that a person at that age would be able to give consent regardless of which family they came from?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Uh no.
(how do I translate that...)

If you use a telecommunication service (telephone, internet....) or another way of deception and contact a minor with the intent to do anything listed from §201 till §207 (pornographic pictures, sex...........) then you are up for a prison sentence up to two months.


Cyber-sex is obviously already not only the intent but an act and thus does not fall under this.

I see. Is a person's name registered when they are sentenced for contacting a minor with the intent to engage in any of the above illegal activities so as to be sure they don't exploit children when they are released from prison?

Nope.
"The age of consent in Germany is 14, as long as a person over the age of 21 does not exploit a 14- to 15-year-old person's lack of capacity for sexual self-determination, in which case a conviction of an individual over the age of 21 requires a complaint from the younger individual; being over 21 and engaging in sexual relations with a minor of that age does not constitute an offense by itself. Otherwise the age of consent is 16, although provisions protecting minors against abuse apply until the age of 18 (under Section 182(1), it is illegal to engage in sexual activity with a person under 18 "by taking advantage of an exploitative situation"[36])."

(Highlighting mine.)

How does the law determine "exploitation of a 14- to 15-year-old person's lack of capacity for sexual self-determination"? That is, according to German law, what is the difference between exploiting a teenager of that age and having sex with him or her legally?

About the highlighted part, it doesn't seem reasonable to me to rely on a complaint from a young teen to decide whether or not to convict someone older than 21 for having sex with them. What if the 14- or 15-year-old doesn't complain due to being pressured not to, or because they were led to believe by the older person that they should stay silent? There seems to be so much potential for abuse of that part of the law by older people who want to have sex with young teens.

 

[LuisDantas]

If having the maturity to give informed consent depends to a significant degree on the specific family, which standard should lawmakers go by when deciding the age of consent in any given country? That is, where would the line be drawn so that there is absolutely no doubt that a person at that age would be able to give consent regardless of which family they came from?

I don't worry about that. I don't expect law to be wise in the first place.