The Amazing Quran

[Fatihah]

So claims you, but since you admit that the vast majority of human reasoning is faulty and based on denial, why is it that you trust your judgement over anyone else's?

For example, I am certain that I know that you are wrong by understanding what denial is and what is the best method of ascertaining truth. How do you know that your conclusion is more correct than mine?

In other words, I'm looking for objective verification that justifies your belief. Do you have it?


Can you give an example of Keith Moore claiming that the Qur'an contains "scientific miracles"?

Maurice Bacaille has claimed that science does not contradict the Qur'an, but as far as I'm aware has never claimed that the Qur'an is scientifically accurate. Can you provide any more information on him as well?

I suppose I seem to be asking for a lot, but it is necessary to validate your claim.

Response: I trust my judgement more so than anyone else because I know myself better than anyone else. I also never claimed that the vast majority of human reasoning is faulty and based on denial.

If you are asking for proof that the qur'an is true, the proof is in the fact that the qur'an has no discrepancy, nor can anyone prove otherwise, and that it is humanly impossible to produce a chapter like the qur'an, which proves that it is from Allah(swt).

As for Keith Moore and Maurice Bucaille, you can simply research them in your search engine.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Response: I trust my judgement more so than anyone else because I know myself better than anyone else.

Repsonse: Wow. Just - wow.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Response: I trust my judgement more so than anyone else because I know myself better than anyone else.

So you admit that your judgement is yours alone, and that therefore your judgement is just as likely to be wrong as anyone else's?

I also never claimed that the vast majority of human reasoning is faulty and based on denial.

Yes you did. You claimed this: "Denial is the reason why a non-muslim wish not to acknowledge. It's not a case of them not knowing it's the truth because they do know. However, ego plays the role in why they, like yourself, won't acknowledge it."

You were saying that the reason people reject your beliefs is because they are in denial or won't acknowledge the truth. That's you claiming that the majority of people (i.e: non-Muslims) employ faulty logic and denial.

If you are asking for proof that the qur'an is true, the proof is in the fact that the qur'an has no discrepancy, nor can anyone prove otherwise, and that it is humanly impossible to produce a chapter like the qur'an, which proves that it is from Allah(swt).

Well, to start with, I am not asking for proof that the Qur'an is true. I'm asking how you, personally, came to the conclusion that your judgement on this matter was better than anyone else's.

Also, this claim is entirely ridiculous. Could you produce a play like Hamlet? If you cannot, that must mean that Hamlet was written by God, right?

The Qur'an is a book, written by men. I can demonstrate that simply by virtue of the fact that it is a book - therefore the result of someone writing it. Can printers print it? Can I not make notes on it? Can I not edit it and re-release it? It is the result of human hands, any other claim is nonsense without sufficient evidence.

If you think the Qur'an is without discrepancies, would you mind addressing this website:

Contradictions / Difficulties in the Qur'an

I'm not going to say I agree with their claims, I just want to hear your side of the argument.

As for Keith Moore and Maurice Bucaille, you can simply research them in your search engine.

I have, and I have found not one source stating that they have claimed the things you have claimed. Can you provide me with a source that does?

 

[skydivephil]

Response: I never said that I don't accept science that has been replicated and peer reviewed. The problem you have is that your acceptance of science which is replicated and peer reviewed is selective, due to reasons which are not logical. For the evidence that the qur'an and sunnah is true us based on the same science, yet you deny it's validity. Thus your whole argument is a double standard, which does not hold up.

Really can you show me something that I have denied that is both published in serious academic peer review journals and well duplicated by multiple researchers?
Tell me what evidence that the Quran is true has ever appeared in serious academic journals such as Nature or Science or PNAS.
Here is a good source so you can find proper science journals:
Science Gateway - Journal and Academic Rankings
why don't you go through them and show me the ones that tell us how true the Quran is ?
Incidentally the same web site has a list of the top 20 countries by scientific output :
02.15.2009 - National Rankings by Output in Sciences and Social Sciences, 1999-2008 - ScienceWatch.com
notice how many of them are Islamic countries? not a single one. Not exactly a surprise.
Perhaps Islamic scientists should spend a bit more time doing some actual research rather than fantasizing that science back up their religion, which it does not.

Whilst your at it are you going to explain sura 86 and its ridiculous fluids or not?

 

[Fatihah]

So you admit that your judgement is yours alone, and that therefore your judgement is just as likely to be wrong as anyone else's?



Yes you did. You claimed this: "Denial is the reason why a non-muslim wish not to acknowledge. It's not a case of them not knowing it's the truth because they do know. However, ego plays the role in why they, like yourself, won't acknowledge it."

You were saying that the reason people reject your beliefs is because they are in denial or won't acknowledge the truth. That's you claiming that the majority of people (i.e: non-Muslims) employ faulty logic and denial.



Well, to start with, I am not asking for proof that the Qur'an is true. I'm asking how you, personally, came to the conclusion that your judgement on this matter was better than anyone else's.

Also, this claim is entirely ridiculous. Could you produce a play like Hamlet? If you cannot, that must mean that Hamlet was written by God, right?

The Qur'an is a book, written by men. I can demonstrate that simply by virtue of the fact that it is a book - therefore the result of someone writing it. Can printers print it? Can I not make notes on it? Can I not edit it and re-release it? It is the result of human hands, any other claim is nonsense without sufficient evidence.

If you think the Qur'an is without discrepancies, would you mind addressing this website:

Contradictions / Difficulties in the Qur'an

I'm not going to say I agree with their claims, I just want to hear your side of the argument.


I have, and I have found not one source stating that they have claimed the things you have claimed. Can you provide me with a source that does?

Response:I say that my judgement can be wrong, not likely to be wrong.

Secondly, again, I never stated that the vast majority of people are in denial and have faulty logic. The words of mine in which you've quoted is in response to why my logic is rejected, not my beliefs. And since I haven't spoken to the vast majority of people, it could not possibly refer to such.

As for the discrepancy, if you do not suggest that there are any, then there is no need to address the link. I only address things in islam to clarify a person's understanding. So since you claim no discrepancy, then there's nothing to clarify.

Lastly, concerning producing a chapter like the qur'an, I'll further explain with the following:


It is a common response that everytime this challenge is stated, someone responds with something like, "can you produce something like Shakespere or a symphony like Beethoven? If not, does this mean that they are prophets of God?"

So before the thread is filled with those type of responses, let me explain further. The challenge is to produce a chapter "like" the qur'an. Therefore, it does not mean to simply write something in arabic and think you've accomplished something. What is the qur'an? Well what is any religous scripture? It is supposed to be inspiration from God. It's purpose is to inspire people to follow its teachings. So to produce a chapter like the qur'an means to produce a chapter as inspirational and as successful as the qur'an.

So what's the purpose of that? Well by doing so, you learn the miracle of the qur'an. And what is that miracle? The miracle is the following:
It is impossible for a person/s to create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation.

This is the miracle of the qur'an. This is the miracle of Muhammad. This is a challenge for those who claim that the religion of islam is man made as well as the qur'an. Muhammad used a religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation. So to those who claim that this was the act of a man made religion, then why don't you do the same? Why don't you create your own religion and see how far you get? And when you do, you will fail. Not only will you will fail, you will fail miserably. Muhammad conquered Arabia. I guarantee you, you won't even be able to conquer your own neighborhood. And once you fail, you will be forced to ask yourself the question "why was it possible for Muhammad but impossible for me and anyone else?" That is when you will come to realize that it was the help of Allah that made it possible for Muhammad. Without Allah, even Muhammad would have failed. You disagree, the 1400+ year challenge still stands.

 

[Fatihah]

Really can you show me something that I have denied that is both published in serious academic peer review journals and well duplicated by multiple researchers?
Tell me what evidence that the Quran is true has ever appeared in serious academic journals such as Nature or Science or PNAS.
Here is a good source so you can find proper science journals:
Science Gateway - Journal and Academic Rankings
why don't you go through them and show me the ones that tell us how true the Quran is ?
Incidentally the same web site has a list of the top 20 countries by scientific output :
02.15.2009 - National Rankings by Output in Sciences and Social Sciences, 1999-2008 - ScienceWatch.com
notice how many of them are Islamic countries? not a single one. Not exactly a surprise.
Perhaps Islamic scientists should spend a bit more time doing some actual research rather than fantasizing that science back up their religion, which it does not.

Whilst your at it are you going to explain sura 86 and its ridiculous fluids or not?

Response: Refer to post 67 of page 7 of the thread.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

For Pete's sake - will someone drop another pebble down the well? I honestly don't think there is a bottom.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Response:I say that my judgement can be wrong, not likely to be wrong.

Then surely you can understand that your judgement is just as likely to be wrong as anyone else's when you talk about people ignoring truth in order to deny the truth to themselves.

This taken into account, how can you possibly make the claim that other people are wrong, and are simply in denial? This is a claim that goes beyond any possibility of evidence or rationale and asserts from the start that you are correct. You have no means of verifying who it is that is right - Muslims or non-Muslims - based on your claim.

Secondly, again, I never stated that the vast majority of people are in denial and have faulty logic. The words of mine in which you've quoted is in response to why my logic is rejected, not my beliefs. And since I haven't spoken to the vast majority of people, it could not possibly refer to such.

I'll accept that. I just meant "vast majority of people" to mean "non-Muslims", since you conclude that people reject Islam based solely on their denial.

As for the discrepancy, if you do not suggest that there are any, then there is no need to address the link. I only address things in islam to clarify a person's understanding. So since you claim no discrepancy, then there's nothing to clarify.

I have never claimed no discrepancy - I have never made any claim on the Qur'an because I simply do not know enough. But could you answer my question by answering to the discrepancies included in the website? If it will help, I'll choose a select couple. For example, in Sura 2:221 the Qur'an forbids Muslims to marry idolators, and in Sura 9:28-33 calls Christians unbelievers and idolators. Yet in 5:5 says a Muslim may marry a Christian or Jewish woman (Qur'an Contradiction: Can a Muslim Man Marry a Christian Woman?). For a simpler discrepancy, in 2:29 Allah made the earth and then the heavens, but then in Sura 79:27-30 it states he made heaven and then the earth (Contradictions in the Qur'an: Heaven or Earth, which was created first?).

Lastly, concerning producing a chapter like the qur'an, I'll further explain with the following:


It is a common response that everytime this challenge is stated, someone responds with something like, "can you produce something like Shakespere or a symphony like Beethoven? If not, does this mean that they are prophets of God?"

So before the thread is filled with those type of responses, let me explain further. The challenge is to produce a chapter "like" the qur'an. Therefore, it does not mean to simply write something in arabic and think you've accomplished something. What is the qur'an? Well what is any religous scripture? It is supposed to be inspiration from God. It's purpose is to inspire people to follow its teachings. So to produce a chapter like the qur'an means to produce a chapter as inspirational and as successful as the qur'an.

The Bible. It's even more successful.

So what's the purpose of that? Well by doing so, you learn the miracle of the qur'an. And what is that miracle? The miracle is the following:
It is impossible for a person/s to create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation.

You ever heard of the Communist Manifesto?

It's not a religion, but it inspired enough followers to overthrow a nation. That's hardly a miracle.

This is the miracle of the qur'an. This is the miracle of Muhammad. This is a challenge for those who claim that the religion of islam is man made as well as the qur'an. Muhammad used a religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation. So to those who claim that this was the act of a man made religion, then why don't you do the same? Why don't you create your own religion and see how far you get? And when you do, you will fail. Not only will you will fail, you will fail miserably. Muhammad conquered Arabia. I guarantee you, you won't even be able to conquer your own neighborhood. And once you fail, you will be forced to ask yourself the question "why was it possible for Muhammad but impossible for me and anyone else?" That is when you will come to realize that it was the help of Allah that made it possible for Muhammad. Without Allah, even Muhammad would have failed. You disagree, the 1400+ year challenge still stands.

Again, Communist Manifesto. Bible. Hell, even Martin Luther's "On the Jews..." inspired Hitler to take over Germany and make a semi-decent attempt at taking over the world.

Sorry, that's not a miracle by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Fatihah]

Then surely you can understand that your judgement is just as likely to be wrong as anyone else's when you talk about people ignoring truth in order to deny the truth to themselves.

This taken into account, how can you possibly make the claim that other people are wrong, and are simply in denial? This is a claim that goes beyond any possibility of evidence or rationale and asserts from the start that you are correct. You have no means of verifying who it is that is right - Muslims or non-Muslims - based on your claim.


I'll accept that. I just meant "vast majority of people" to mean "non-Muslims", since you conclude that people reject Islam based solely on their denial.


I have never claimed no discrepancy - I have never made any claim on the Qur'an because I simply do not know enough. But could you answer my question by answering to the discrepancies included in the website? If it will help, I'll choose a select couple. For example, in Sura 2:221 the Qur'an forbids Muslims to marry idolators, and in Sura 9:28-33 calls Christians unbelievers and idolators. Yet in 5:5 says a Muslim may marry a Christian or Jewish woman (Qur'an Contradiction: Can a Muslim Man Marry a Christian Woman?). For a simpler discrepancy, in 2:29 Allah made the earth and then the heavens, but then in Sura 79:27-30 it states he made heaven and then the earth (Contradictions in the Qur'an: Heaven or Earth, which was created first?).


The Bible. It's even more successful.


You ever heard of the Communist Manifesto?

It's not a religion, but it inspired enough followers to overthrow a nation. That's hardly a miracle.


Again, Communist Manifesto. Bible. Hell, even Martin Luther's "On the Jews..." inspired Hitler to take over Germany and make a semi-decent attempt at taking over the world.

Sorry, that's not a miracle by any stretch of the imagination.

Response: Again, my judgement is not likely to be wrong. As for discrepancy, unless you suggest they are discrepancy, then there's no need to address them. Lastly, you've failed to produce a chapter like the qur'an. Instead, you've answered by mentioning the bible, communist manifesto, and Martin Luther. But that's a statement. Where's the proof? Until we see this, then you have no evidence that supports that it is not a miracle, making the challenge still valid, and proof that the qur'an is the true word of Allah(swt).

 

[skydivephil]

Response: Refer to post 67 of page 7 of the thread.

Yes I did that, there is no reference anywhere to any serious peer reviewed journal that backup the claims of the Quran.
Heres some more help. these are the top ten ranked journals in the world by academic citation:
Rank Journal Papers
1 Journal of Biological Chemistry 2 Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA (PNAS) 3 Nature 4 Science 5 Physical Review Letters 6 J. American Chemical Society 7 Physical Review B 8 Astrophysical Journal 9 New England Journal of Medicine 10 Applied Physics Letters
Why dont you browse through them and see how many have articles cofnirming the Quran is true?

You still havent answer what the Sura Ive discussed refers to. Im waiting.

 

[skydivephil]

Response:I say that my judgement can be wrong, not likely to be wrong.

Secondly, again, I never stated that the vast majority of people are in denial and have faulty logic. The words of mine in which you've quoted is in response to why my logic is rejected, not my beliefs. And since I haven't spoken to the vast majority of people, it could not possibly refer to such.

As for the discrepancy, if you do not suggest that there are any, then there is no need to address the link. I only address things in islam to clarify a person's understanding. So since you claim no discrepancy, then there's nothing to clarify.

Lastly, concerning producing a chapter like the qur'an, I'll further explain with the following:


It is a common response that everytime this challenge is stated, someone responds with something like, "can you produce something like Shakespere or a symphony like Beethoven? If not, does this mean that they are prophets of God?"

So before the thread is filled with those type of responses, let me explain further. The challenge is to produce a chapter "like" the qur'an. Therefore, it does not mean to simply write something in arabic and think you've accomplished something. What is the qur'an? Well what is any religous scripture? It is supposed to be inspiration from God. It's purpose is to inspire people to follow its teachings. So to produce a chapter like the qur'an means to produce a chapter as inspirational and as successful as the qur'an.

So what's the purpose of that? Well by doing so, you learn the miracle of the qur'an. And what is that miracle? The miracle is the following:
It is impossible for a person/s to create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation.

This is the miracle of the qur'an. This is the miracle of Muhammad. This is a challenge for those who claim that the religion of islam is man made as well as the qur'an. Muhammad used a religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation. So to those who claim that this was the act of a man made religion, then why don't you do the same? Why don't you create your own religion and see how far you get? And when you do, you will fail. Not only will you will fail, you will fail miserably. Muhammad conquered Arabia. I guarantee you, you won't even be able to conquer your own neighborhood. And once you fail, you will be forced to ask yourself the question "why was it possible for Muhammad but impossible for me and anyone else?" That is when you will come to realize that it was the help of Allah that made it possible for Muhammad. Without Allah, even Muhammad would have failed. You disagree, the 1400+ year challenge still stands.

Your argument is a complete joke, First off people have invented new religions and new ideologies since Islan and they have inspired people to kill and die for them. Communism conquered a large proportion of the world, does that make it anyway true. Did Marx get his ideas from god?
Now if you object that communism is not a religion, fine what about Mormonism or Scientology? The Mormons even created an entire new city, Salt Lake City. Are you telling me that that if they icnreased their territory, perhaps by being a bit more violent , there holy books would suddnely be true? Have you have to be kidding right?
Your argument is basically might makes right, or the logical fallacy of the ad populum:
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I suggest reading a bit of logic then coming back to us.

 

[Fatihah]

Your argument is a complete joke, First off people have invented new religions and new ideologies since Islan and they have inspired people to kill and die for them. Communism conquered a large proportion of the world, does that make it anyway true. Did Marx get his ideas from god?
Now if you object that communism is not a religion, fine what about Mormonism or Scientology? The Mormons even created an entire new city, Salt Lake City. Are you telling me that that if they icnreased their territory, perhaps by being a bit more violent , there holy books would suddnely be true? Have you have to be kidding right?
Your argument is basically might makes right, or the logical fallacy of the ad populum:
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I suggest reading a bit of logic then coming back to us.

Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof? That's right. You have none. Instead, you've dodged the challenge to produce a chapter yourself. Why? Denial is the obvious reason. For if I was wrong, you would take up the challenge. But you were to afraid to do so. So once again, I thank you for proving once again that the qur'an is the true word of Allah(swt).

 

[averageJOE]

Your argument is a complete joke, First off people have invented new religions and new ideologies since Islan and they have inspired people to kill and die for them. Communism conquered a large proportion of the world, does that make it anyway true. Did Marx get his ideas from god?
Now if you object that communism is not a religion, fine what about Mormonism or Scientology? The Mormons even created an entire new city, Salt Lake City. Are you telling me that that if they icnreased their territory, perhaps by being a bit more violent , there holy books would suddnely be true? Have you have to be kidding right?
Your argument is basically might makes right, or the logical fallacy of the ad populum:
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I suggest reading a bit of logic then coming back to us.

Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof? That's right. You have none. Instead, you've dodged the challenge to produce a chapter yourself. Why? Denial is the obvious reason. For if I was wrong, you would take up the challenge. But you were to afraid to do so. So once again, I thank you for proving once again that the qur'an is the true word of Allah(swt).

What exactly do you need him to prove to you?
That people invent new religions?
That communisim made up a large part of the world?
That Mormons live in their own societies?

 

[Fatihah]

What exactly do you need him to prove to you?
That people invent new religions?
That communisim made up a large part of the world?
That Mormons live in their own societies?

Response: Prove that it is possible for a person/s to create a religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation. If communism or Mormons have done so, then prove so.

 

[Fatihah]

Yes I did that, there is no reference anywhere to any serious peer reviewed journal that backup the claims of the Quran.
Heres some more help. these are the top ten ranked journals in the world by academic citation:
Rank Journal Papers
1 Journal of Biological Chemistry 2 Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA (PNAS) 3 Nature 4 Science 5 Physical Review Letters 6 J. American Chemical Society 7 Physical Review B 8 Astrophysical Journal 9 New England Journal of Medicine 10 Applied Physics Letters
Why dont you browse through them and see how many have articles cofnirming the Quran is true?

You still havent answer what the Sura Ive discussed refers to. Im waiting.

Response: The isnad backs up the validity of the qur'an. The same scrutiny under peer reviewed science to determine the validity of science information is the same scrutiny applied to the isnad and the authenticity of the qur'an and sunnah.

You still haven't told us your reasons for lying and interpolating words in the qur'an which are not there. I'm waiting.

 

[tumbleweed41]

The challenge is much more complicated that that Fatihah.

Prove that it is possible for a person/s to create a religion of peace and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to violently conquer a nation by raiding caravans, assassinating opponents, expelling and massacring Jews, and all this in less than 86 expeditions.


Yep, your right. You win.

 

[skydivephil]

Response: Prove that it is possible for a person/s to create a religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation. If communism or Mormons have done so, then prove so.

Have you ever read a history book?

 

[skydivephil]

Response: The isnad backs up the validity of the qur'an. The same scrutiny under peer reviewed science to determine the validity of science information is the same scrutiny applied to the isnad and the authenticity of the qur'an and sunnah.

You still haven't told us your reasons for lying and interpolating words in the qur'an which are not there. I'm waiting.

I havent lied anywhere, I have told the truth about the quran and you dont want to face it. If you can actually read , you will see the quran clearly states the mankind comes from a fluid that according to different translations are either in the breast bone and the back bone, or in between the spine and the viscera. Thats what the Quran says, read Sura 86 , yet read any anatomy text book and you will not see any agreement to this. I have challeneged you to explain what this fluid is, and you keep refusing.
Notice you couldnt finds even one single serious scientific journal that validates the Quran.

 

[Fatihah]

Have you ever read a history book?

Response: Yes. Do you know what hypocrisy is?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Response: Yes. Do you know what hypocrisy is?

Saying peace with your lips while spreading a religion by the sword?