The Arab World: the Perspective of an "Insider"

[Lyndon]

And on the psychopaths in the US Military and CIA.

 

[David1967]

And, did you forget that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (al Quds) Haj Amin al-Husseini, and the Iraqi prime minister Rashid Ali al-Gaylani both sided with Nazi Germany and actively embraced Nazi ideologies, both helping Germany abroad, emulating groups like the SS back at home, and actually agreeing with the "Final Solution" after it had begun? Point is, we have to stop living in the past. We have issues, and IS is one of them. Nothing is gained by placing blame on anyone apart from IS. They are the monsters, and they must be killed ... every single one of them, without mercy. I agree that much of the problem is due to actions of the west in the past, but placing blame on the west for problems in the Middle East does absolutely no good.

All blame must sit squarely on this group of savages we refer to as the Islamic State. They are psychopaths ... nothing more.

ISIS is beyond psychopath...they are pure evil.

 

[leibowde84]

And on the psychopaths in the US Military and CIA.

I would argue that they aren't even on the same level, as I've never heard of them cutting people's heads off on live TV or taking a concert hall full of hostages and throwing live grenades into the crowd without purpose or reason.

But, even if that weren't the case, two wrongs don't make a right. Killing innocent people as a reaction to innocent people being killed is just as evil as killing innocent people without provocation, imho. IS is about as close to Nazi Germany as anyone can get.

 

[Lyndon]

Remember Dresden, that was our military, we didn't see the pictures but our military did the same thing to Iraq during the gulf wars. Plainly put having bad guys in charge of government is no excuse to bomb and slaughter civilians of said country, otherwise you can become worse than the bad guys.

 

[leibowde84]

Remember Dresden, that was our military, we didn't see the pictures but our military did the same thing to Iraq during the gulf wars.

Can you provide some evidence to back this claim up? I was not aware that they cut people's heads off on live TV and threw live grenades into a concert hall full of hostages.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

under Sadam was Sunni and Shia in peace , when USA invade Iraq for oil , the suicide bombs start and Iraqis start killing each other more .

They were repressed under Saddam - not the same thing. The tension was clearly always there, lurking beneath the surface. Saddam had been gone for probably a year before the sectarian BS kicked off.
The only thing keeping Sunnis & Shias from killing each other was a tyrant who wasn't above gassing his own citizens if it suited him.

So NATO intervented to save libyan from Gaddafi ? to be better .
seems Libyans are in save now !!

They more than likely intervened for more than just this reason - I think the oil was a major factor. But that doesn't detract from the fact Benghazi's citizens would have been slaughtered if Western airstrikes had not laid waste to Gaddafi's tanks.

The problem here is the West can do no good in your eyes - Gaddafi was backed by the West after he gave up his chemical & nuclear weapons supplies. The West wasn't able to engage in rebuilding Libya's government (or at least securing the nation while this process was undertaken by the Libyans) because the Security Council resolution which authorised shooting down Gaddafi's air force explicitly forbade the use of ground forces or occupation.

I don't think it a reasonable stretch of the imagination to guess that if this wasn't the case - and the West had sent ground forces in to secure Libya while she was rebuilt - that there'd be the endless stream of complaints that, once again, an army of infidels was occupying a Muslim nation.

the process of changing a regime (which consider dictatoric for West) by terrorism and civil wars , is fact .

I won't argue with this. It's a tactic most easily observed in Cold War history - the West supports one tyrant over the enemy's choice of tyrant or direct enemy control over a nation. Here's lookin' at you, Korea.

 

[Godobeyer]

They were repressed under Saddam - not the same thing. The tension was clearly always there, lurking beneath the surface. Saddam had been gone for probably a year before the sectarian BS kicked off.
The only thing keeping Sunnis & Shias from killing each other was a tyrant who wasn't above gassing his own citizens if it suited him.





They more than likely intervened for more than just this reason - I think the oil was a major factor. But that doesn't detract from the fact Benghazi's citizens would have been slaughtered if Western airstrikes had not laid waste to Gaddafi's tanks.

The problem here is the West can do no good in your eyes - Gaddafi was backed by the West after he gave up his chemical & nuclear weapons supplies. The West wasn't able to engage in rebuilding Libya's government (or at least securing the nation while this process was undertaken by the Libyans) because the Security Council resolution which authorised shooting down Gaddafi's air force explicitly forbade the use of ground forces or occupation.

I don't think it a reasonable stretch of the imagination to guess that if this wasn't the case - and the West had sent ground forces in to secure Libya while she was rebuilt - that there'd be the endless stream of complaints that, once again, an army of infidels was occupying a Muslim nation.




I won't argue with this. It's a tactic most easily observed in Cold War history - the West supports one tyrant over the enemy's choice of tyrant or direct enemy control over a nation. Here's lookin' at you, Korea.

the root of ISIS is invade Iraq by USA , because of lies( weapon destructions, nuclear weapon ) .
in the end the world discover that it's just a lie , all about oil .


West put his nose in Iraq and Libya and Syria , then put whole the blame on us (Muslims) !!!

as i see Libya with Gadaffi is better than this oasis of voilence and guns .

Bush was tyrant by killing million of Iraqi kids by sanction Iraq for more than 10 years (oil for food) .

Bush the father was tyrant by bombing Bagdad ...etc , cause thousand of Iraqis innocents killed in Gulf war 1991

 

[leibowde84]

the root of ISIS is invade Iraq by USA , because of lies( weapon destructions, nuclear weapon ) .
in the end the world discover that it's just a lie , all about oil .


West put his nose in Iraq and Libya and Syria , then put whole the blame on us (Muslims) !!!

as i see Libya with Gadaffi is better than this oasis of voilence and guns .

Bush was tyrant by killing million of Iraqi kids by sanction Iraq for more than 10 years (oil for food) .

Bush the father was tyrant by bombing Bagdad ...etc , cause thousand of Iraqis innocents killed in Gulf war 1991

All I can say is, if you don't want Muslims to be blamed for ISIS and the like, don't blame Americans for the Bushes. I hated them just as much as you did back then, I didn't vote for either, and I didn't want anything to do with invading Iraq. But, I am still a patriotic American.

 

[Godobeyer]

All I can say is, if you don't want Muslims to be blamed for ISIS and the like, don't blame Americans for the Bushes. I hated them just as much as you did back then, I didn't vote for either, and I didn't want anything to do with invading Iraq. But, I am still a patriotic American.

I blame Bush intervention in Iraq;so that's the root of ISIS .

i blame both, by the way .

 

[leibowde84]

I blame Bush intervention in Iraq;so that's the root of ISIS .

i blame both, by the way .

Fair enough for me.

 

[Godobeyer]

I agree with you. The west is involved in many conflict for its personnal interests but muslims have also a part of responsability.

some Muslims regimes are/were support by money or by gun or by fatwas the voilence , among them Kings of Oil and Jordan and Turkey

I also remember that many supported Kadaffi because they thought the West was spreading lies about him as he wanted to unite the arabs, the africans in general and wasn't afraid to say what he thinks.
But when they saw how he really was they were shocked. Some just don't want to see the reality.

I knew someone who met Kadaffi and he confirmed me that he was crazy.

I believe many libyians accept him as he , i believe he aimed because of his plan of "Arab united " and Africa united " and African currency (Golden Dinar)

I wished NATO let the Libyans choose their futur by their hands .

let's suppose NATO intervented in Syria :
in this case , do you accept that NATO intervented in Tunisia 'to save tunisian from Bin Ali regime" when the revolution start ?

This is the main problem.
Why muslims are killing each others ? How a supposed sane person can attack his own people ?
The americans are the one who attacked them, yet irakis were killing each others ...




Nobody can convice me to kill an innocent person, or to hate a group of people.
Some muslim foreigners dare to go in Irak and Syria to kill people who have been there for centuries.
Just yesterday i was watching a documentary about irakis and daesh.

The father said one bomb explosed and his 2 daughters under the age of 10 years old who were in their car died.
They were calling "dad, dad" but he couldn't open the doors of the car. He saw them burning.
Is that the fault of the west ?

this ideology of Takfir (kill the others , even Muslims) , and root is Wahabism in Saudi Arabia , which support Saudi Regime to establish the kingdom by his fatwas of slaying and killing the others rivals .

this ideology is admited by Sayyid Qutb and supported by Yusuf Qaradawi .

 

[Godobeyer]

Hello Godobeyer! I have to agree with you that unfortunately we have not left the situation in Libya and Iraq in a better state from our intervention there. And yes I'm sure if not for oil....but that is subject for another thread. But going forward what are your views concerning how we should as westerners and free Muslims and just free people of the world, go about combating Isis in Syria and Iraq especially in light of the Paris attacks? I don't see these people, Isis and
other terror groups, just deciding that peace is the way. Salam brother.

I just don't accept the opinion that put whole the blame on Muslims about Iraq and Syria and Libya , and forget the root of problem (intervention)

YES , now what done is done .

the world need to fight ISIS as they fight NAZI before , there are Syria Army and Iraqi Army fighting ISIS on the ground , the world need to help them by strikes and weapons (as Russian did ) .

 

[leibowde84]

I just don't accept the opinion that put whole the blame on Muslims about Iraq and Syria and Libya , and forget the root of problem (intervention)

YES , now what done is done .

the world need to fight ISIS as they fight NAZI before , there are Syria Army and Iraqi Army fighting ISIS on the ground , the world need to help them by strikes and weapons (as Russian did ) .

One thing that was different about WWII is that the allied had no qualms about necessary civilian casualties and leveling entire European cities. Would you be OK with the same in the fight against ISIS? Imho, it is necessary and certainly sad.

 

[Godobeyer]

One thing that was different about WWII is that the allied had no qualms about necessary civilian casualties and leveling entire European cities. Would you be OK with the same in the fight against ISIS? Imho, it is necessary and certainly sad.

most of areas in Syria are almost empty , that's why there are millions of Syrians refugees around the world

I hope there will be no more civilian casualties , i wish that West happened Syrian and Iraqi armies to fight them on ground , more than bombing them by airstrikes , so avoid a little more civilian casualties .

 

[Twilight Hue]

Excuse me???? Have you clean forgotten about the gulf war and George Bush senior, 10 years before 9/11 where an estimated up to 1 million Iraqis died from Allied bombing??

We should of just let Saddam go ahead and annex Kuwait?

The estimate of civilian casualties from what I gathered remained under 3000 as a direct result of the bombing itself. Far short of the inflated figures of a million people at US hands.


Anyways it was Saddam's own aggressive actions crossing Kuwait 's border that resulted in military action against him.

 

[leibowde84]

I hope there will be no more civilian casualties , i wish that West happened Syrian and Iraqi armies to fight them on ground , more than bombing them by airstrikes , so avoid a little more civilian casualties .

I feel like this is a bit unfair. You are saying that you'd rather have American casualties than middle eastern casualties.

 

[David1967]

I just don't accept the opinion that put whole the blame on Muslims about Iraq and Syria and Libya , and forget the root of problem (intervention)

YES , now what done is done .

the world need to fight ISIS as they fight NAZI before , there are Syria Army and Iraqi Army fighting ISIS on the ground , the world need to help them by strikes and weapons (as Russian did ) .

I agree with you on this. Hopefully We (the free world) can defeat this terror cult soon and without the civilian casualties we have seen in the past.

 

[Godobeyer]

I feel like this is a bit unfair. You are saying that you'd rather have American casualties than middle eastern casualties.

sorry
maybe you did not understand my point cause of my English level

 

[Lyndon]

We should of just let Saddam go ahead and annex Kuwait?

The estimate of civilian casualties from what I gathered remained under 3000 as a direct result of the bombing itself. Far short of the inflated figures of a million people at US hands.


Anyways it was Saddam's own aggressive actions crossing Kuwait 's border that resulted in military action against him.

According to wikipedia;

"The Gulf War began with an extensive aerial bombing campaign on 17 January 1991. The Coalition flew over 100,000 sorties, dropping 88,500 tons of bombs,[99] and widely destroying military and civilian infrastructure.[100] The air campaign was commanded by USAF Lieutenant General Chuck Horner, who briefly served as U.S. Central Command's Commander-in-Chief – Forward while General Schwarzkopf was still in the U.S.

A day after the deadline set in Resolution 678, the Coalition launched a massive air campaign, which began the general offensive codenamed Operation Desert Storm. The first priority for Coalition forces was the destruction of Iraq's Air Force and anti-aircraft facilities. The sorties were launched mostly from Saudi Arabia and the six Coalition carrier battle groups (CVBG) in the Persian Gulf and Red Sea."


88,500tons of bombs and only 3000 civilian deaths????????????????????????????????, this is before we had smart bombs, so civilian casualties were much higher, some people are just gullible evidently and believe the lying propaganda from the US military. Unless 99.99% of those bombs hit the desert and killed no one, there have to be way, way more than 3000 dead civilians.

 

[leibowde84]

...

LOL ... nope. Your ignorance astounds me once again, Lyndon. What I meant was this:

People are going to die no matter what in this fight against IS. Putting troops on the ground will mean that, instead of just local civilians dying, young American men and women will die as well. My position is that I want the least amount of innocent death, whether they are middle-eastern, american, syrian, etc. (doesn't matter). I just want the least amount of death in general. I would hope you would agree with this. At the same time, I would like the most amount of IS deaths as possible, as they are getting more and more dangerous. Putting boots on the ground may or may not reduce deaths, as there will be more American soldiers killed, but possibly less civilian casualties. We don't know.

So, saying that American Soldiers should take the place of local civilian casualties seems to be a bit unfair. They have families. They don't choose who they fight. And, the middle-east is not their home. If you disagree, say why. I welcome the discussion.

But, that being said, your ignorant, insulting assumption that I value American life more than life from other countries is unsupported gibberish that shows your immense lack of understanding of the way I think, which is understandable. The detestable thing is that you assumed to know my mind merely because some people are prejudiced here.

Have some self-respect, and don't make stupid assumptions. Tisk tisk.