The Argument for God(Or Against God) Is Never a Logical One.

[budha3]

God exist beyond vibratory creation. Where God live is only reachable to us when we die; even though there have been instances where some have been able to access Him through phenomenological experience. An example would be Apostle Paul, the prophet Isaiah, and John of Revelations. God also exist in everything we find on earth in the form of a "photon" (Light). God Himself/Herself is light, just as we in our essence are light. God is a perfect circle of light energy. This is where the term Alpha and Omega comes from. There is no beginning nor an end to a perfect circle. What I'm trying to say is God has a shape and a form. Let me know if you agree or disagree.

 

[Kathryn]

And how, exactly, does my girlfriend's father's death work into his plan? Or my mother's arthritis? Or my friend losing a leg?

Currently the death rate is at 100 percent - so death is something we must all accept. Sickness usually precedes death and eventually causes death (as does injury, of course).

But you're missing the point of my post. I didn't say that prayer or God gives us an escape from death or suffering. What I am saying is that God's plan may include suffering, but it can be for the overall good in a situation - and we can't see the big picture from where we're standing.

I can think of numerous situations in my own life in which I learned so much from my own suffering that I consider the suffering to actually be a blessing. I became a better person for it.

So either God does not exist and all of these events are just the result of chance, or God does exist but his influence is so minute and indecipherable from chance that it makes no difference than if he didn't exist at all.

That's not what I believe at all - that may be what YOU believe but not me. I believe that God uses events and situations in our lives to accomplish His will. I believe that we can become better people by being attune to what He is trying to teach us through our circumstances. When we learn His wisdom, we can then help others in similar circumstances. "Be still and know that I am God," is a great concept. It's a form of submission that has great benefits - not the least of which is a profound inner peace, even in the midst of great chaos and even heartbreak.

From your perspective, all human life is effectively meaningless. We neither live nor die for anything other than a divine whim that dictates every facet of our existence.

Nothing could be further from the truth. God allows us free will, and with that freedom comes responsibility and consequences. But God also uses our will, our choices, our circumstances to accomplish His greater will. I trust God completely. I can say that with such assurance - and that assurance is in itself a great blessing in my life.

But I don't expect you to understand where I'm coming from on that.

In other words: your prayers don't actually achieve anything, they just make you feel better.

I believe that God is merciful and infinitely wise. I believe that He loves His children - more than I love my own children. I believe that He listens to our prayers and has mercy on us - even when our will and our desires don't mesh with His. But during prayer and meditation, He can also work on our hearts and lead us to wisdom that we didn't possess until we quieted ourselves and truly listened to Him.

That's a lot more than simply "feeling better." Prayer and meditation helps me make better decisions in my life and those decisions impact my family, my friends, my co workers, and my customers.

Maybe there is no "why". Maybe you just need to accept that things that happen sometimes just happen, divine intervention or not.

You may be right, but your arguments certainly haven't convinced me. So - thanks for the advice but I feel confident in my belief that God is in control of His universe. Carry on, though - it's not up to me to convince you otherwise. I'm just sharing my personal experiences and beliefs with you.

Sadly, I think you've failed to answer any of my concerns. Not that I expected you to, they're not exactly easy issues to address for anybody. Still, I thank you for trying.

Like I said, it's not up to me to convince you to believe otherwise. However, thanks for interacting with me on the subject. I always enjoy the opportunity to share my faith with others, ESPECIALLY when ASKED to share it. Beats the heck out of standing on a soapbox on the town square on a summer afternoon.

 

[Kathryn]

So, we can't understand God's ways, and yet here you are telling us that you know about God's ways in this case. It's one or the other. Either we can't understand God's ways, and therefore there's no need to even consider the idea of God, or we can understand his ways all the time. You can't say "Well, clearly he saved my daughter for a good reason", and then say "Well, I don't know why he didn't choose to save your uncle/husband/daughter...I guess he works in mysterious ways".

I never said that we can't understand SOME of God's ways or attributes. That would be a ridiculous position to take. I said we can't see the WHOLE PICTURE from our perspective. That's quite a different position.

My dogs can tell a lot about my character from observation, and from experiencing me in their lives. They trust me to love them and to do what's best for them. That does not mean that they understand WHY I do everything I do, or even most of what I do. Why do I wear clothes? Why do I wear DIFFERENT clothes every day? Why do I take a bath every day? Why do I walk on my back legs? Why don't I like it when they lick me in the mouth?

Better yet - and even more puzzling - why do I sometimes load them up in the car and take them to that awful place where strangers stick them with sharp needles, stick weird things in their rear end, and sometimes even (Oh the horror of it!) REMOVE THEIR BODY PARTS????

I can never convey to them the overall wisdom of why I treat them so well sometimes, and other times do things that surely seem terrible to them. Yet they know I love them, and therefore they trust me.

And their trust is not misplaced, because everything I do in regard to them, I do out of love and because I want what's best for them.

They are dogs. They don't see the whole picture - but that doesn't change the truth of the whole picture at all.

 

[Kathryn]

There's a lot of "not God" out beyond that circle of human knowledge; why assume that it was God that healed your daughter and not some other unknown thing?

And how would that make one bit more sense? I believe that God is omnipotent and that He certainly can (and does) use "unknown things" to accomplish His will - but I don't believe that they operate outside of His will.

And I hate to say this, but I haven't seen a single compelling argument that would convince me otherwise.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Currently the death rate is at 100 percent - so death is something we must all accept. Sickness usually precedes death and eventually causes death (as does injury, of course).

But you're missing the point of my post. I didn't say that prayer or God gives us an escape from death or suffering. What I am saying is that God's plan may include suffering, but it can be for the overall good in a situation - and we can't see the big picture from where we're standing.

I can think of numerous situations in my own life in which I learned so much from my own suffering that I consider the suffering to actually be a blessing. I became a better person for it.

And you seem to be missing the point of my post as well. Your daughter, according to you, was spared because of this plan. On the other hand, my girlfriend's father was not spared, again, according to you, because of this plan. So what you're saying is that sometimes God saves lives according to his will, and sometimes he takes lives according to his will. Either way, it's for a greater purpose set by him even if we don't understand it at first.

My question is: if this is the case, then what is the difference between God and chance? Since you don't know his reasoning, it makes no difference, so there might as well not be any reasoning. Sometimes God allows people to die for some reason that we don't know and sometimes God does not allow people to die for some reason we don't know is exactly the same, in reality, as saying sometimes people die for no reason and sometimes people survive for no reason.

God, by your reckoning, is no better nor more reliable than chance with regards to people's lives.

That's not what I believe at all - that may be what YOU believe but not me. I believe that God uses events and situations in our lives to accomplish His will. I believe that we can become better people by being attune to what He is trying to teach us through our circumstances. When we learn His wisdom, we can then help others in similar circumstances. "Be still and know that I am God," is a great concept. It's a form of submission that has great benefits - not the least of which is a profound inner peace, even in the midst of great chaos and even heartbreak.

I never said that's what you believe - I stated that it's my analysis of your belief. See above.

Nothing could be further from the truth. God allows us free will, and with that freedom comes responsibility and consequences. But God also uses our will, our choices, our circumstances to accomplish His greater will. I trust God completely. I can say that with such assurance - and that assurance is in itself a great blessing in my life.

But I don't expect you to understand where I'm coming from on that.

I never said anything about human free will, I'm talking about the will of God. You have said that God allows people to die for reasons we may never understand, and allows people to live for reasons we may never understand. I put it to you that, were this true, God would be an abhorrent being worthy of nothing more than contempt. Allowing people to suffer and die and others not to for no discernible reason other than your own indecipherable whim is a horrendous thing for any being to do.

So, either God exists and allows people to suffer for no reason apparent to them - in which case he a monster, or these things are just a result of chance. From everything you've said so far, I find both God and pure chance to be almost entirely the same.

I believe that God is merciful and infinitely wise. I believe that He loves His children - more than I love my own children. I believe that He listens to our prayers and has mercy on us - even when our will and our desires don't mesh with His. But during prayer and meditation, He can also work on our hearts and lead us to wisdom that we didn't possess until we quieted ourselves and truly listened to Him.

That's a lot more than simply "feeling better." Prayer and meditation helps me make better decisions in my life and those decisions impact my family, my friends, my co workers, and my customers.

So, prayer is just like thinking then?

You may be right, but your arguments certainly haven't convinced me. So - thanks for the advice but I feel confident in my belief that God is in control of His universe. Carry on, though - it's not up to me to convince you otherwise. I'm just sharing my personal experiences and beliefs with you.

I have no objections to people believing in a God, I just get riled whenever people start talking about how God saved their son/daughter/friend/neighbor, etc. which is pretty understandable considering the amount of suffering I encounter on a daily basis just within my close circle of friends alone. You must understand that when people you care about are hurt or killed in the most meaningless way, it can be rather annoying when somebody comes along saying that someone they care about got an exemption from suffering from God. Having been to some of the poorest places on earth, I can tell you straight that the vast majority of human suffering does not educate, inform or enlighten those who are struck by it. To say that such a thing is not only planned for, but potentially prevented by a God who somehow deems so many people of not worth saving makes me nothing but contemptible for the entire notion of such a God and sick to the back teeth of the idea of such a horrendously foul, ignorant, selfish and utterly malevolent being could be allowed to exist.

It's worth noting at this point that the issue I take is not with your or your personal beliefs - it's a long standing feud I've been having with the God concept all my life, and I tend to take a pretty firm stance on it. I apologize if you've taken anything I've said so far as personal in any way.

Like I said, it's not up to me to convince you to believe otherwise. However, thanks for interacting with me on the subject. I always enjoy the opportunity to share my faith with others, ESPECIALLY when ASKED to share it. Beats the heck out of standing on a soapbox on the town square on a summer afternoon.

I hope you don't think I'm trying to convince you either. I guess I'm just trying to show you how an atheist (or, at least, myself) might view your statements and your belief, rather than try to refute your beliefs themselves. Consider my posts a counter-point.

I've always wanted to get into an actual debate with a religious person, but so few are willing in person. Ironically, the most available for such discussions are usually the most reserved theists, while those who refuse to listen or tend to walk away as soon as a counter-point is raised tend to the far more outspoken theists. Street preachers being the worst, of course.

 

[Magic Man]

I never said that we can't understand SOME of God's ways or attributes. That would be a ridiculous position to take. I said we can't see the WHOLE PICTURE from our perspective. That's quite a different position.

My dogs can tell a lot about my character from observation, and from experiencing me in their lives. They trust me to love them and to do what's best for them. That does not mean that they understand WHY I do everything I do, or even most of what I do. Why do I wear clothes? Why do I wear DIFFERENT clothes every day? Why do I take a bath every day? Why do I walk on my back legs? Why don't I like it when they lick me in the mouth?

Better yet - and even more puzzling - why do I sometimes load them up in the car and take them to that awful place where strangers stick them with sharp needles, stick weird things in their rear end, and sometimes even (Oh the horror of it!) REMOVE THEIR BODY PARTS????

I can never convey to them the overall wisdom of why I treat them so well sometimes, and other times do things that surely seem terrible to them. Yet they know I love them, and therefore they trust me.

And their trust is not misplaced, because everything I do in regard to them, I do out of love and because I want what's best for them.

They are dogs. They don't see the whole picture - but that doesn't change the truth of the whole picture at all.

And yet you claim to understand some of what God does. Either he works in mysterious ways, or he doesn't. Either you know it was him who saved your daughter because you understand why, or you don't know it was him because you don't understand why. It was a valiant effort with the dog analogy, but it's still just rationalization. At least the dog sees you and knows you're there.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And how would that make one bit more sense?

It doesn't. However, it doesn't make any less sense, which is the relevant point.

I remember that an "earnest seeker of truth" had something to say on the topic:

The well of truth and knowledge is so huge that it's inconceivable that we as individuals, let alone as the whole of humanity, would be able to claim that we KNOW even 5% of the truths of the universe, life, the origins of our earth and solar system, and the hereafter.

So... despite the fact that you estimate that humanity knows less than 5% of the truths of the universe, you apparently have special insight into that other 95+% (i.e. the part that, apparently, no human being knows anything at all about) to exclude all of it but God as causes for the unexplained? How does that work, exactly?

If you really did mean what you said about the nature of human knowledge, and you weren't just trying to create a place to stuff God that's conveniently beyond human inquiry, then you can't exclude the possibility that there's stuff "out there" that's active in the world that you might mistakenly attribute to God.

 

[Kathryn]

Your daughter, according to you, was spared because of this plan. On the other hand, my girlfriend's father was not spared, again, according to you, because of this plan. So what you're saying is that sometimes God saves lives according to his will, and sometimes he takes lives according to his will.

No, that's not what I'm saying. As I've stated before, currently the death rate is 100 percent. No one's spared, dude. All I'm talking about is timing.

Since you don't know his reasoning, it makes no difference, so there might as well not be any reasoning. Sometimes God allows people to die for some reason that we don't know and sometimes God does not allow people to die for some reason we don't know is exactly the same, in reality, as saying sometimes people die for no reason and sometimes people survive for no reason.

See above. Also - just because we don't understand something right away, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. I still don't understand why quarks are categorized in different colors. It doesn't matter - that doesn't mean it makes no sense. It just doesn't make sense to ME - right NOW.

You have said that God allows people to die for reasons we may never understand, and allows people to live for reasons we may never understand.

Nope, I never said that.

Allowing people to suffer and die and others not to for no discernible reason other than your own indecipherable whim is a horrendous thing for any being to do.

Like I said, just because we don't understand something right now, doesn't invalidate it.

You must understand that when people you care about are hurt or killed in the most meaningless way, it can be rather annoying when somebody comes along saying that someone they care about got an exemption from suffering from God.

My daughter doesn't have cerebral palsy. Do YOU have cerebral palsy? Do I? My daughter was spared that particular form of suffering. That doesn't mean she's more special than anyone else - it just means that there's a different plan for her life. We have no idea what the future holds for any of us. But I am grateful for every blessing - and the fact that her health improved is indeed a blessing.

And yet you claim to understand some of what God does. Either he works in mysterious ways, or he doesn't.

I don't understand everything that God does (of course) but I do grow in wisdom as I submit my will to His and open my heart to learn.

So... despite the fact that you estimate that humanity knows less than 5% of the truths of the universe, you apparently have special insight into that other 95+% (i.e. the part that, apparently, no human being knows anything at all about) to exclude all of it but God as causes for the unexplained? How does that work, exactly?

If you really did mean what you said about the nature of human knowledge, and you weren't just trying to create a place to stuff God that's conveniently beyond human inquiry, then you can't exclude the possibility that there's stuff "out there" that's active in the world that you might mistakenly attribute to God.

Oh brother - this discussion is deginerating. I never claimed any special insight - all I have is beliefs and opinions and theories on so many of the mysteries of our universe. I could say the same about you - in fact, I think I will.

I don't claim that everything that happens that I don't understand is an out-of-the-ordinary act of God - though as a Theist, I do believe that God ordered the universe and created the laws of nature and science. I believe that God usually uses those laws which He created to accomplish His will.

And that's how that works, exactly.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No, that's not what I'm saying. As I've stated before, currently the death rate is 100 percent. No one's spared, dude. All I'm talking about is timing.

My girlfriend's father was made redundant from his work just shy of a month before being diagnosed with cancer. He died just before Christmas and missed his daughter's graduation by six months. Why is it that God decided his timing was perfect in this case, and your daughter's timing wasn't? Why did my friend lose his leg? Was the timing right for that?

See above. Also - just because we don't understand something right away, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. I still don't understand why quarks are categorized in different colors. It doesn't matter - that doesn't mean it makes no sense. It just doesn't make sense to ME - right NOW.

But when you're evoking an ineffable being that takes credit for things you can't understand or don't make immediate sense to you, surely you understand that all you're really doing is attempting to force your own interpretation of events onto such a beings will. In other words, if something goes bad, you say it's his will that we should suffer so we should learn. If something turns out good, you thank him for his mercy. It's not a case of just not making sense, it's a case of your God being so inconsistent that he is indecipherable from pure chance.

Nope, I never said that.

Yes you did:

"Based on what I know and what we experienced in this situation, I believe that God healed my daughter. I don't know how, and I don't know why. But I know that medical science did NOT heal her, and I know that I did not heal her. I know that a team of pediatricians and neurologists could not explain how she was healed."

"This doesn't mean that all things work out like we think they should. It means that we trust that God has the greater good as a goal, and we allow ourselves to be instruments of His will."

"My daughter doesn't have cerebral palsy and has recovered fully from her brain injury, but why did she suffer for 8 months as an innocent baby? I don't know. Maybe it was simply so that that wonderful neurologist could witness a series of events that gave him hope and strength to carry on his work for a few more years. I don't know. I will probably never know in this lifetime."

"I didn't say that prayer or God gives us an escape from death or suffering. What I am saying is that God's plan may include suffering, but it can be for the overall good in a situation - and we can't see the big picture from where we're standing."

Like I said, just because we don't understand something right now, doesn't invalidate it.

That's not my point. My point is that your God works in a way no different to random chance.

My daughter doesn't have cerebral palsy. Do YOU have cerebral palsy? Do I? My daughter was spared that particular form of suffering. That doesn't mean she's more special than anyone else - it just means that there's a different plan for her life. We have no idea what the future holds for any of us. But I am grateful for every blessing - and the fact that her health improved is indeed a blessing.

This is a repeat of the "we don't know Gods will he just does what he does because of his plan even if we don't know what his plan is" argument that I've addressed above (and that you claimed to not adhere to). If your daughter's health improving a blessing then I'm guessing my mother's arthritis or my friend losing his leg are curses, right?

Like it or not, you're still claiming that your daughter was given an exemption - for no discernible reason - while millions of other people suffer needlessly - and for no discernible reason - according to God's will. In other words, your God is no more powerful not influential or dependable than pure random chance and it makes no difference if he exists or not.

 

[Kathryn]

Suffering can also be a blessing. In fact, the experience of my daughter suffering for 8 months turned out to be one of the greatest blessings in our family, because of what we learned through it.

I have had tragedies in my life - we all have or will have. However, one of the greatest nuggets of wisdom that I've learned (in fact, I learned it through my daughter's ordeal - which was also our FAMILY'S ordeal) is the ability to take a deep breath in the midst of a tragedy, step back from the emotional devastation, and apply this very clarifying concept: "What is it that I am supposed to learn from this? How do I apply what I learn to the rest of my life? Who am I trusting in this - God or man?"

This takes a lot of discipline - and faith - for me to be able to do this. But it's been a discipline that has served me very well over my lifetime.

I accept the fact that I can't know WHY everything happens, right now. But I also believe that one day I will understand all that I need to understand. I've lived long enough now to realize that things become clearer over time, and I have also experienced enough of God's love and mercy in my life to believe that He has a larger plan than what we can see from our limited perspective.

You don't believe that? That's your thing. I doubt you can convince me otherwise, and I doubt I can convince you otherwise.

All I can do is testify and live my faith openly and joyfully.

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But when I became a woman, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass darkly, but one day we will see things face to face and clearly. Now I know in part, but one day I will know in full, even as my entire self will be known and revealed. (from 1 Corinthians 13)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My daughter doesn't have cerebral palsy. Do YOU have cerebral palsy? Do I? My daughter was spared that particular form of suffering. That doesn't mean she's more special than anyone else - it just means that there's a different plan for her life. We have no idea what the future holds for any of us. But I am grateful for every blessing - and the fact that her health improved is indeed a blessing.

If she hadn't improved, wouldn't that have been a blessing as well? After all, you said before that God uses suffering to acheive good things.

Oh brother - this discussion is deginerating. I never claimed any special insight - all I have is beliefs and opinions and theories on so many of the mysteries of our universe.

Not explicitly, but when you declare one thing to be the root cause, you implicitly declare all other things to not be that root cause. Since you've declared that God lives in the "big gap" beyond human knowledge (and thereby acknowledge this "big gap" where an unknown number of things exist, each with unknown properties), it seems to me that there are two possible explanations for your conclusion:

- you have some special insight into either God or this "big gap".
- you have no valid reason to conclude that it was God who was responsible and not some other resident (conscious and intelligent or not) of the "big gap".

I could say the same about you - in fact, I think I will.

Fine - so we're both limited human beings with limited knowledge. How does this help you validly exclude potential possibilities that, by definition, you know absolutely nothing about?

I don't claim that everything that happens that I don't understand is an out-of-the-ordinary act of God

Okay... so then why do you do it here? If you don't do it generally, why do it in this specific case?

though as a Theist, I do believe that God ordered the universe and created the laws of nature and science. I believe that God usually uses those laws which He created to accomplish His will.

And that's how that works, exactly.

I'm not sure I would call applying the ad hominem fallacy to yourself "working", exactly. Are you a theist because you believe in God, or do you believe in God because you're a theist?

 

[Magic Man]

See above. Also - just because we don't understand something right away, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

That's true, although beside the point. If we don't understand something, it means we can't say anything about it. Yet you say you don't understand God's way, but you feel qualified to make claims about them.

I still don't understand why quarks are categorized in different colors. It doesn't matter - that doesn't mean it makes no sense. It just doesn't make sense to ME - right NOW.

But at least someone understands quarks. You could, too, if you took the time to research them. That's quite a bit different from God, where no one understands.

Like I said, just because we don't understand something right now, doesn't invalidate it.

It doesn't invalidate it as a possibility, but it invalidates the claim that it must be true.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

There is one thing I wish to say- people can't prove or disprove God with logic. For one thing, no answers are absolute, save mathematics.

Of course you can disproove things outside of mathematics, just as you can proove them. For example if you have paradoxes you can show that obviously something must be wrong.

In Mathematics 1+1=2; nothing we do or say can change that fact.

Of course it can. Mathematics is a DEFINED system. If we had choosen to DEFINE operations differently we could have changed results.
Let me give you an example:
Per Definition something divided by zero is not calculable.
Additions of negative numbers equal a substraction.
and so on.

I believe in God. Logically, someone can give reasons why there is no God, but for some reason, that logic doesn't seem to effect me or the other theists here. Is it because theists have no logic- no. There are plenty of theists who have a logical mind. Is it because theists are irrational? No. Most theists are very rational people. (And yes, I know that some theists are irrational and illogical).
And I will say this, even though it probably will be ridiculed by someone or more- God is beyond logic. God wouldn't be bound by the logic of the earth since God would not be of earth.

You see ... the idea that God is beyond logic is in my view a disastrous view.
If God is beyond logic then you couldnt reason ANYTHING about him.
Yet that exactly is what many many theists do and did, especially the scholars.
Let me give you some example in order to show you how ridiculous it can get when you lift God beyond logic.

1) God always speaks the truth.
2) God has written the Bible.
Logically you would say:
3) Ergo: what has been written in the bible has to be true

But no ... God is beyond logic which means he can actually tell the truth and still lie in the book he has written.

Now God perhaps has given you commands and he tells you why you should do that. Actually you could perhaps reason from scripture why this and that should be done or shouldnt .... sorry, thats wrong. If God is beyond logic then you cant rely on reasoning to argue for a command or against it, neither can you even be sure that the command actually must be followed EVEN if he said so because God is so beyond logic that a commander commanding something doesnt automaticaly mean it is a command.

In other words ... you end up in disaster not being able to justify or "explain" anything. You end up in a realm that is so illogical that in daily life it would surprise me if you consistently applied your idea of a god beyond logic.

 

[PolyHedral]

If God is beyond logic then you couldnt reason ANYTHING about him.

The extension of this "logic" is that God can hand you a logically valid, entirely correct proof of his non-existence. Could someone please explain why this is in any way sane, sensible or related to reality?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The extension of this "logic" is that God can hand you a logically valid, entirely correct proof of his non-existence. Could someone please explain why this is in any way sane, sensible or related to reality?

It's related to reality in that people have a strong propensity to confuse semantical games with the nature of reality.

 

[PolyHedral]

Sorry, I meant the fact that reality is assumed to be consistent. (For good reason. Go try arguing in a reality that isn't consistent.)

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Sorry, I meant the fact that reality is assumed to be consistent. (For good reason. Go try arguing in a reality that isn't consistent.)

Ha - I've encountered a number of inconsistent realities on RF.

 

[linwood]

God is beyond logic. God wouldn't be bound by the logic of the earth since God would not be of earth.

Is this a statement coming from a rational mind concerning this topic?

Truly honestly answer that and you`ll see..maybe.

Ok..probably not.

 

[newhope101]

I ask the question "if there is a God, why did he/she leave no convincing evidence that would stand nowadays?" Was this an oversight or the 'plan'?
A believer would choose 'plan' I expect.
Plan may hinge on whether or not one believes in an afterlife of any sort.and begs the question"does one's behaviour in this life affect the outcome?"

Albeit that we only have human understanding and concepts it is still incredible to believe that any God would not save people that have no hope of stumbling on some particular faith. If there is a god but no afterlife then who cares?

The only thing that is shown by not revealing Himself is that mankind is doing a pretty poor job at rulling himself and caring for the planet without Him.

People want to believe. But it is only a matter of faith.

 

[Kathryn]

I've never stated or claimed that ALL of God's attributes, reasonings, etc are outside of man's logic or ability to understand. This, in fact, is NOT true.

Just because we can't grasp ALL facets of God's character or understand ALL of His plans or actions at present, doesn't mean that we can't understand ANY of them. In fact, we CAN understand facets of God's character, and His plan for our lives.