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The argument that God provides a basis for objective moral values is bad

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Well, uncommon ground is guaranteed.

But I am not sure what do you mean with "more advanced".

He could claim that morality went south since his time and that today is vastly worse than in the past. I can show him my iPad to prove that our technology is more advanced. But what can I show him to prove that our morality is more advanced as well?

Ciao

- viole
I'm not sure whether proving this to a time traveler would be possible, but that would almost prove my point. You could say, in your opinion should women be placed in positions of power? Most likely, he would say no. We, however, have learned that women are just as capable as men when it comes to making important decisions (if not better), so we would clearly see an improvement in this specific part of morality.

The same could be said using examples like slavery, interracial marriage/offspring, class systems, capital punishment, etc.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
The same could be said using examples like slavery, interracial marriage/offspring, class systems, capital punishment, etc.

A given individual could think that, by stopping slavery, we were allowing lesser peoples to get ideas above their station, thereby corrupting society. They're not wrong, there's no correct or incorrect here. I'd just disagree with him.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
A given individual could think that, by stopping slavery, we were allowing lesser peoples to get ideas above their station, thereby corrupting society. They're not wrong, there's no correct or incorrect here. I'd just disagree with him.
I would say that through societal evolution, our morality has evolved as well. We have come to realize over time (gradually) that ownership of human beings is against the interest of society and, thus, immoral. Now, our morality could be wrong, I guess, but there is a great deal of proof that shows the harm to society caused by slavery, so it seems pretty clear. The time traveler would have just not figured that our quite yet.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I would say that through societal evolution, our morality has evolved as well. We have come to realize over time (gradually) that ownership of human beings is against the interest of society and, thus, immoral. Now, our morality could be wrong, I guess, but there is a great deal of proof that shows the harm to society caused by slavery, so it seems pretty clear. The time traveler would have just not figured that our quite yet.

Well Winston, that's not our morality being right or wrong, it's our reasoning.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I'm not sure whether proving this to a time traveler would be possible, but that would almost prove my point. You could say, in your opinion should women be placed in positions of power? Most likely, he would say no. We, however, have learned that women are just as capable as men when it comes to making important decisions (if not better), so we would clearly see an improvement in this specific part of morality.

The same could be said using examples like slavery, interracial marriage/offspring, class systems, capital punishment, etc.

OK, I am going to play devil's advocate.

Suppose he told you that the price of putting women in position of power does not compensate the advantages of leaving them in the kitchen, independently from their ability to be as good as man in position of power.

The moment we let women believe that they could do like men, is the moment we risk broken families, women pursuing career and neglecting children, men experiencing a crisis about their natural role, stressed multiroled women, divorces, abortions, suffering children parked in kindergartens or granny's small flat, and, last but not least, frozen pizza in the fridge.

Look how happy everybody was when they assumed the role given to them by natural law! Is it really morally preferrable to destabilize this harmony?

Ciao

- viole
 
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Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
The problems I have with your definition of morality is that breaking the code/law would translate into an anti-social act rather than an immoral one.
That's not what I said. I was just comparing how the term "objective" is considered in law. Something that's objective is something that's outside a single person's bias and opinions. The law is objective by that standard. By the same standard, morality is also objective. That's not the same as saying that morality and law are themselves the same things. It's like this. An apple is a fruit. An orange is a fruit. But an apple is not an orange. Law is objective. Morality is objective. But Law and morality are two different things.

You say that objective is something outside a person but the sum of other people's subjective morality views does not equal objective morality.
But that's how morality works. If you take a class in sociology, you'll learn that morality is based on common values, mores, attitudes, etc. Morality evolves, and it's founded in the community and its attitudes. It's not up to a single person to decide what the community consider moral, but the community slowly adapt and change its common views.

By your definition "objective" is dependent of majority within a certain community.
Essentially, in this case, yes.

If that's the case, the term "objectively" is no longer necessary and we can focus on moral standards within a certain community, at a certain time. ...
That's usually how it's done in cultural anthropology and sociology.

The problem that arises is that there is still no objective morality by which a community can be judged from outside. IMO the proposal you're making for objective morality is simply not feasible.
That's why I prefer the term "universal" or "absolute" instead of objective, simply because objective is a term that means outside a person's bias and views, not outside a community's bias and views. Objective is misleading and incorrect for what you're looking for, in my opinion. I'd prefer to use clearer language. That was my point. The constant use of objective creates an artificial schism between theists and non-theists. Using a sharper language might help finding better ground for discussion.

I do understand what you're saying, but the term "objective" can be interpreted as "a: expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations". Which fits for the conditions of a majority of views. The majority of views become the condition that the single person's feelings, prejudice, and interpretation can't fight against. You're opinion about if lying is right or wrong won't change the majority view of it being right or wrong. Morality in society tends to rely on the morality of the majority, independent of your personal views.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
It all comes down to whether you see helping the society to remain functional as a good thing, I suppose.

I don't think it does. I can see that as good, fine. But that's my own opinion, regardless of how widely it's held. Doesn't establish objectivity.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Just a quick response, as I have to head off about a minute ago:

If two people have different ideas about what constitutes good and bad, any two people (which I think we can assume to be the case) and we can't absolutely know which one is correct in their worldview and basis for said beliefs (which we can't, we can only agree with one or the other or both to varying degrees) then morality must be subjective, because we just have no solid, universal basis for it.
So then what you're saying is that morality doesn't exist. There's no common idea or concept that people in a community consider moral or ethical. It's a complete free for all. How come it isn't if this is true? Obviously people live by codes that has been transferred by their parents and society. Codes that have changed slowly over time and adapted to new knowledge and values and views. A baby is born and raised with values that are shared in the community (at least to some degree). The baby didn't decide what values or ethics should be there. It was given to them. But these values changes, so they're not absolute. Yet they're not decided by the individual. So they're not subjective. Morals are non-subjective, yet not universal.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
So then what you're saying is that morality doesn't exist. There's no common idea or concept that people in a community consider moral or ethical. It's a complete free for all. How come it isn't if this is true? Obviously people live by codes that has been transferred by their parents and society. Codes that have changed slowly over time and adapted to new knowledge and values and views. A baby is born and raised with values that are shared in the community (at least to some degree). The baby didn't decide what values or ethics should be there. It was given to them. But these values changes, so they're not absolute. Yet they're not decided by the individual. So they're not subjective. Morals are non-subjective, yet not universal.

Maybe we're operating under different ideas of what subjectivity means. I mean that they're based on opinion, not somehow embedded in fact.

Same as a language is passed on with gradual changes. However, a tree is not intrinsically called a 'tree', or an 'arbre', or a 'coeden'.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
I think the concept being discussed is whether, for example, it's objectively wrong in some way to lie, or commit adultery, regardless of opinions people may hold on the matter.
"Regardless of opinions people may hold on the matter" is a definition of non-subjective. I'm going to use that term from now on, instead of objective, since it contains such stigma.

Morals are non-subjective.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
"Regardless of opinions people may hold on the matter" is a definition of non-subjective. I'm going to use that term from now on, instead of objective, since it contains such stigma.

Morals are non-subjective.

Where's the distinction?
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
I don't think it does. I can see that as good, fine. But that's my own opinion, regardless of how widely it's held. Doesn't establish objectivity.
So then you feel that moral is the same as opinion then?

Your opinion is moral. Whatever you feel like, that's the moral option.

If you feel like lying, then lying is a moral thing to do?
 

Kirran

Premium Member
So then you feel that moral is the same as opinion then?

Your opinion is moral. Whatever you feel like, that's the moral option.

If you feel like lying, then lying is a moral thing to do?

No. But if I think that it's morally acceptable to lie, then to me it is. I don't, as it happens.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Maybe we're operating under different ideas of what subjectivity means. I mean that they're based on opinion, not somehow embedded in fact.
Subjective means that it relates to a person's opinions.
Objective means that it's not. It relates to something outside a person's opinions.

If you believe that morals are subjective, then whatever a person feels like doing, that's the moral choice.

If you believe that morals are non-subjective, then whatever a person is doing, in the context of morality, is judged right or wrong based on some common moral idea.

Same as a language is passed on with gradual changes. However, a tree is not intrinsically called a 'tree', or an 'arbre', or a 'coeden'.
Right.

But a tree is called a tree when it is called a tree in English, that's a fact.

It's not a universal fact that trees have to be called a tree. But it is a fact that a tree is called a tree in English, and it's not up to a person to invent words and expect everyone to understand them.

Let's use subjective language here: xlkj a0s8 dv8sldkjnaq 23#@ 2 sdlfkj ;..a.sr234
That's my newly invented language. My subjective language. It makes total sense to me, but not to anyone else. What's the use then of it if it can't make sense to everyone else? Language is built on commonality and shared ideas between people, so it's non-subjective.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
No. But if I think that it's morally acceptable to lie, then to me it is. I don't, as it happens.
Why? Why don't you? What made you to the person you are who feel that it's not acceptable?

Essentially, you have come to be that person based on a couple of things. First, your upbringing. Secondly, people's opinions around you, outside your personal opinions. Thirdly, on reasoning that there are good foundation to why you shouldn't.

All these three things are non-subjective in relation to you, specifically you.

--edit
Also, "morally acceptable to you" means that the term "moral" isn't relating to society at all. Then I feel the word "moral" has no meaning. Moral has to do with the relationship between you and society. It's the code that helps you and society work together. Making morality a subjective thing, is basically removing it completely and say it doesn't exist. To do whatever "morally acceptable to you" is the same to say "morality doesn't exist at all." Not even moral relativism would fit that. It's a non-morality or anti-morality.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
OK, I am going to play devil's advocate.

Suppose he told you that the price of putting women in position of power does not compensate the advantages of leaving them in the kitchen, independently from their ability to be as good as man in position of power.

The moment we let women believe that they could do like men, is the moment we risk broken families, women pursuing career and neglecting children, men experiencing a crisis about their natural role, stressed multiroled women, divorces, abortions, suffering children parked in kindergartens or granny's small flat, and, last but not least, frozen pizza in the fridge.

Look how happy everybody was when they assumed the role given to them by natural law! Is it really morally preferrable to destabilize this harmony?

Ciao

- viole
All of the contentions/reasons for keeping women in the home are false and based off ignorance. I personally know from experience that men can get things done around the house just as well when they put their mind to it. But, more importantly, allowing women to stay in the home is not even an option anymore. In most circumstances, both parents have to work in order to provide for their children. If we are to recognize this truth without allowing women in positions of power, it would seem to be immoral/unjust.
 
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