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The Aryans in the Indus Valley

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It is true that the Kurgen hypothesis is most widely accepted theory of Aryan origins, but it is not evidentially robust, unless you are willing to mention that evidence. The only evidence Aryan origins is based on is linguistic speculations and some guess work -- e.g. Kurgen hypothesis is based on the idea the Aryans were a horse and chariot driven war-like people that originated in Russian steeps spread across Indo-Europe wiping out the original matriarchal god-worshipping peaceful cultures.

Prior to the Kurgen hypothesis was the Anatolian hypothesis that the Aryans were from the Anatolia region. Prior to that there was the Nordic hypothesis, the Aryans were a Germanic people, blonde hair and blue eyed etc. There are many competing hypothesis claiming where they were from and each is mired in politics.

The only evidence for notion of Aryan people comes from the same evidence --- Sir William Jones noting when he studied Sanskrit, that Sanskrit was linguistically from the same family of languages that Latin, Greek and other European languages were from. While, the bulk of those languages occur in Europe, only one of then occurs in India. Hence, by posting a linguistic centre of gravity in Europe somewhere, the inference is at some point of the Aryans arrived into India from Europe, bringing with them Sanskrit and the Vedic hymns and the caste system and subjugating the native Dravidian people from India. This is why it is known as invasion theory

In order to support this theory, Western Sanskritists, tried to find evidence of this invasion in the Rig Veda itself, especially hymns like the Battle of the ten kings which mentions the tribal battles between kings as evidence of invasion. Hymns describing how the rain god Indra slayed the demon Vrittra who had imprisoned the waters and the cattle, were interpreted as the chief of the Aryans Indra slaying the chief of the Dravidian tribes Vritra and establishing Aryan rule in India(as a justification for current colonial rule in India) was provided as flimsy evidence for the mythical invasion. But no evidence for any invasion has been found by archaeologists.

Despite there being no evidence the Aryan invasion theory, the theory was still pushed as fact. Taught as a fact Everything within Hinduism, scriptures, epigraphical records was interpreted in light of the invasion myth. Then the only archaeological evidence that did emerge later by the archaeology Sir Mortimer Williams where he discovered at Harappa the evidence of vitrified forts and dozens of skeletons seeming holding hands, was instantly taken as confirmation of how the Aryan tribes sacked the Harrapa city and again taught as fact. Later, archaeologists discovered that actually the skeletons were not holding hands, but were at different statra(i.e. different dates, some as far apart as several centuries) As you can see the myth was so taken for granted, that nobody bothered to challenge the fact that there was no evidence to back it up at all.

So no Aryan invasion theory has officially been discredited as a myth due to the total lack of archaeological evidence, it has been demoted to Aryan Migration Theory. It is basically a tacit admittance: We have no evidence for the Aryans ever coming into India, but we still believe it must have happened because of linguistic evidence.

But when the same linguistic evidence can be interpreted to locate Aryans in Anatolia, in Russian steeps, in Germany, it shows that it clearly is not certain scientific evidence at all. Obviously, everyone is guessing because they had taken the invasion for granted for so long.



This is actually more of ad-hominem attack used by people who still support some sort of Aryan invasion against scholars who oppose it, to accuse them of being Hindu nationalists etc to discredit them. In actual fact, AIT/AMT is opposed by scholars who are neither Hindu or Indian, and who were even former AIT/AMT proponents. That the most vocal of opposition comes from Indian scholars is not surprising, because Inda's real history is connected to their own identity.



These old arguments of horse, chariots and wheels being evidence the Aryans came from Europe because no evidence has been found in archaeology for the same in Indus valley settlements have long been debunked. Horse fossils have been found, toy chariot/carts have been found, spoked wheels have been found. In addition to what else has been found that was thought the Aryans brought in from Europe and were not in India before then -- ritual altars like those used in Vedic sacrifices, ritual water pools, the swastika symbol, Yoga postures, including statues of Brahmin like priests wearing robes as Brahmins wear them even today. In fact, the current research shows that there is no evidence of Aryans bringing anything that we cannot already find the Indus sites. This has caused scholars to now revise the the beginning of Hinduism from 1500BCE to 6000BCE.

Here is the strongest evidence against AIT/AMT which so far has been ignored just because it contradicts the myth

1. The Aryans never mentioned in any of their literature, whether Vedic or post-Vedic, of having a home outside of India. In fact the Aryans describe their history as always being in India and trace continuous settlements of kings to 6000BCE. The Greek records agree that this is what Indians always believed.
2. The Aryans referred to India as "Aryavarta" as the land of the Aryans and never referred to any other place as being the land of Aryans
3. The oldest Aryan literature, the Rig Veda, describes the geography of India, the flora and fauna of India not Europe. It was believed before that early hymns of the Rig Veda were composed outside of India, now it is accepted the Rig Veda was fully composed in India
4. The Rig Veda describes as thriving the now dried up river of Saraswati, which was flowing from the Himalayas into the Indian ocean in 4000BCE. It is even says all its settlements are alongside the Saraswati river, which is where most of the Indus settlements have indeed been found. This means the Aryans were already millenias in India before the posited date of 1500BCE as their arrival. The drying up of the river Saraswati is later mentioned in post-Vedic literature like Mahabharata.
5. The newest kind of evidence, based on Mitochondria DNA, shows absolutely no evidence of arrival of European DNA into India in 1500BCE or even after, the earliest evidence of foreign DNA entering India is with the Greek invasions in 300BCE.
6. Astronomical tables of the Aryans record naked eye observations of the beginning of the Kalyuga age in 3102BCE Feb correct to minutes from Indian, and astronomers like Playfair who studied them declared it was impossible for this to have been known, unless it really was a naked eye observation.
7. The Indian epics actually describe migrations from India into Europe as various tribes leaving India, including the Danvas tribe(the children of the danube) but NOT migrations into India.
8. The earliest evidence of migrations into Western Asia such as Hittie-Mittani state and Indian kings appearing with Sanskrit names is from 1700BCE.

If the preponderance of evidence is considered, I think we have very good reason to suspect AIT/AMT without being a Hindu nationalist and it unfair to accuse anybody who challenges the myth to be a Hindu nationalist or just stupid.
I am out on a trip and cannot reply in detail. And in any case this is a Dir forum. I will not debate here. Instead of debating here again please state your view of the history of ancient india and what happened in those early times.
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
Thank you all for your responses. Whether or not the invasion/migration event happened I'm just happy that this 3,000+ year old piece of history called Hinduism has survived all this time.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you all for your responses. Whether or not the invasion/migration event happened I'm just happy that this 3,000+ year old piece of history called Hinduism has survived all this time.
There is much archaelogical work to be done in India. There is good reason to suspect that both rice cultivation and iron working were being invented independently of Anatolia from 1300 BCE onwards in Central India. Much of South Indian history before 300 BCE is unknown. Lot to do and too little funding. :(. I would prefer the indian ppl and govt to invest in archaelogy and preservation rather than beating the dead horse of conspiracy theories from colonial ghosts of previous century.
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
There is much archaelogical work to be done in India. There is good reason to suspect that both rice cultivation and iron working were being invented independently of Anatolia from 1300 BCE onwards in Central India. Much of South Indian history before 300 BCE is unknown. Lot to do and too little funding. :(. I would prefer the indian ppl and govt to invest in archaelogy and preservation rather than beating the dead horse of conspiracy theories from colonial ghosts of previous century.
You mean the British East India Company?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The more I think about history the more I think to myself, "My European ancestors were complete... Well-- (to be polite) buttholes to people."
NO. They were the people of their time. There us no evidence that anybody else would have had done better.
 

User14

Member
The more I think about history the more I think to myself, "My European ancestors were complete... Well-- (to be polite) buttholes to people."

Please, please don't hate your own people and ancestors. It deadens you spiritually and psychologically.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
The more I think about history the more I think to myself, "My European ancestors were complete... Well-- (to be polite) buttholes to people."
They were in their time shorn of their religious and cultural heritage. I blame the 'One God Walas' (monotheists) for all the troubles everywhere.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
My thoughts, fwiw... I can't find the post where I said this before.

Trickle, long term migration of clans, but no invasion. India has been populated by indigenous peoples and their cultures and societies since the time humans left Africa 100,000 to 50,000 years ago. It is likely that people migrated into India, just as they migrated across India into Austronesia. Why would they not decide to stop in India? Migrations came from every which way... from the north, from the northwest, possibly down the coast if they learned to make boats and hugged the coast.

People do not pop up from holes in the ground in any particular location; they come from somewhere. There are two distinct y-DNA (paternal) haplogroups in India that have co-existed for millennia, split along a north-south line, long before any so-called "invasion". Every continent except Antarctica has admixtures of y-DNA and mtDNA (maternal line). Today in India they are admixing heavily. What were "southern" haplogroups can be found all over the north, and vice versa.

I do not believe any group displaced or steamrolled any other. More likely they adopted each others' cultures and languages. Could a few Indo-Europeans have such an influence over language and culture? Sure, look at the US. In a mere 250 +/- years, look how many foreign cultures and languages have become part of US culture. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting an Italian or Chinese restaurant. How much of French, Italian, Spanish, even Hindi have made their way into American lexicon? People are fascinated by what is new, exciting and exotic. Everyone who makes coffee in a coffee shop now is a 'barrista'. :rolleyes: By the way, barrista is female, barristo is male. So adopted words from another language become corrupted or used incorrectly. I suspect that's exactly how Sanskrit (Proto-Indo-Aryan -> Indo-Aryan -> Vedic Sanskrit -> Classical Sanskrit) got a foothold in India. If it's only taken 250 years for a semi-monolithic culture like the American colonies to become as diverse as it is now, imagine what can happen over 5,000 years. This doesn't take away from India, it's what makes India.
 

Stormcry

Well-Known Member
I think Rakhigiri site, biggest Harappan site, going to give a final blow to Aryan Migration. Fantasies won't live forever.
 

Stormcry

Well-Known Member
According to the texts written by ancient aryans, Aryans never migrated to India. No one forgets his homeland. :)
 

Kirran

Premium Member
They didn't. It's a myth. Still, a few people on here, and in western academia still believe it. Please google 'Aryan Invasion Myth' and it will give realms of evidence.

http://uwf.edu/lgoel/documents/AMythofAryanInvasionsofIndia.pdf
The Myth of Aryan Invasion of India

Please stop saying this. You may personally be convinced by the minority academic view, but that doesn't make the opposing view a myth.

This kind of rhetoric approaches a 'the lady doth protest too much' situation.

I don't have a dog in this fight personally. I tend to lean towards the migration having occurred. But there's no need for these kinds of sweeping statements either way.
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
I am out on a trip and cannot reply in detail. And in any case this is a Dir forum. I will not debate here. Instead of debating here again please state your view of the history of ancient india and what happened in those early times.

It is difficult not for this to turn into a debate, maybe it needs to be moved to a debate forum? This is because this is very a controversial subject, and there are strong but opposing views on both sides.

My own take on this matter is what the traditional Hindu view says that there were continuous Aryan settlements in India going back as far as 10,000 years. The Archaeological survey does not contradict this view, it does indeed show us continuous settlements as far back as 7000BCE. So the Aryans were in India at least up until then.

Now, we have to consider that the Indus valley civilisation was no minor civilisation, it was the largest and arguably the most technologically advanced civilisation in the bronze age and it was maritime, as we know from the discovery of the oldest dock yards at Lothal. Hence, there could have been migrations of Indians all around the world, as you expect from an advanced maritime civilisation, eventually it will try to form colonises in other parts of the world. This is also backed by archaeological evidence, we find there were kings in West Asia in 1700BCE with Sanskrit names. So perhaps there were earlier tribes that left form India into Europe --- at least that is what Indian epics record, the migrations of several Mleccha tribes(non-Aryan) out of India and Westwards into rest of Eurasia.

What I do find ironic that while we have no record of Aryans every claiming a homeland out of India, or ever migrating into India West to East, we have clear Aryan records of migrations into West Asia and Europe, East to West. The early Indo-European tribes are mentioned by name, names that we can trace such as the "Danavas" the children of the Danube, who are described as a red-haired race.

When "Out of India" was originally proposed, it was proposed not by Hindu nationalists, nor by any Indians, it was proposed by Western academic scholars and believed by such philosophers and intellectuals like Volataire and Kant. The idea also became widely accepted in the West as India as the original homeland of the Aryans, spurring a Indophile movements, where India was started to be seen as the motherland of European civilisation. But this stood in contradiction to the colonial agenda, where colonialism was justified by portraying colonial subjects as inferior in need of civilising, so later agents working for the East India company and British government were employed as scholars, who came up with the Aryan invasion theory. The homeland of the Aryans was in one move moved from India into somewhere in Europe --- it did not matter where in Europe -- it just had to be somewhere in Europe and not in India.

Even despite the invasion now being shown disproven by all current research, the basic attitude still remains that Aryans have to be somewhere in Europe.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Please stop saying this. You may personally be convinced by the minority academic view, but that doesn't make the opposing view a myth.

This kind of rhetoric approaches a 'the lady doth protest too much' situation.

I don't have a dog in this fight personally. I tend to lean towards the migration having occurred. But there's no need for these kinds of sweeping statements either way.
I'm just regurgitating. Personally, I have no idea, nor do I care.
 
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