The Atheist belief is sad indeed.

[Autodidact]

Gusto = anything that I find pleasing?

No. Gusto: = the most I can learn, most kindness I can do, most I can make the world a better place, most love I can give, most fun I can have.

 

[Alceste]

Awe, intrigue, wonder, and horniness. Don't forget horniness.

Yes, bags and bags of incredible horniness.

 

[Alceste]

You put me to task.

OK, imagine a situation where a young child has cancer and is suffering a painful death. The child cries out and says, " I never got to grow up and have a family of my own, is this all the life I get?".

Do I need to explain more? This child could be comforted with the hope of an afterlife and to see their family and friends again.

Children don't talk like that.

Edit: but if they did, I wouldn't lie to them. I'm not a liar. I don't care how pretty or comforting the lie might appear to be. There is always a door number three. It's not a choice between "Yes, love, you're going to rot in the ground and be eaten by worms" and "No, love, you're going to live forever with a nice young beardy fella who loves you to bits". My approach would be to seek comfort in the fact of being alive to begin with, which is such an incredible, wondrous thing. I would seek to assure the child that s/he is loved and admired by everyone s/he knows, and I would seek ways to deliver as many wonderful experiences as I could possibly pack into the remainder of his or her regrettably short life. It honestly would not occur to me to pretend they're going to another planet, or whatever heaven is supposed to be, even if they themselves whole-heartedly believed this to be true. Obviously I'm not out to convert believers on their death bed, but I am simply not a liar by nature. I can keep my views to myself and change the subject (for believers), or I can fully express my spiritual, non-theistic views, which I honestly believe to have the potential to provide a great deal of comfort to anyone in any situation.

 

[Alceste]

I am not suggesting that you accept any assertions. Science hasn't accepted the God theory, neither have they rejected it. They haven't even made a statement on the matter. That is because they don't make assertions without evidence. The atheist has made an assertion and closed the book on the God theory. Unlike science, they do not remain open on that which has not been proved or disproved. They are acting on a hunch.

No, the atheist does not believe in any deities. There's no need to believe "there are no gods" to be an atheist. Only the absence of belief in gods is required. No belief = no book, open OR closed. Atheism isn't an assertion. It's incredulity about somebody else's assertion.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

On balance, I disagree with the responses of most atheists on the question about the child dying of cancer. I can easily imagine a situation where it would bring a dying child a lot of comfort to say, "Yes, you're going to heaven, and grandma is already there waiting for you ..." etc. It's not difficult to imagine situations where it would be heartless to say otherwise.

 

[Alceste]

On balance, I disagree with the responses of most atheists on the question about the child dying of cancer. I can easily imagine a situation where it would bring a dying child a lot of comfort to say, "Yes, you're going to heaven, and grandma is already there waiting for you ..." etc. It's not difficult to imagine situations where it would be heartless to say otherwise.

Sure, I can imagine a scenario where I might be cornered into lying to a child, but I spend a lot of time with kids and I'm very clever at avoiding such situations. For example, a Pentacostal friend of mine's kid asked if I was a Christian once, and I found myself in a tight spot. I felt I couldn't say "no" because she liked me and I didn't want her worrying about me burning in hell, but I couldn't say "yes" either, because it would be a lie. Instead I said "Well, there are a lot of different kinds of Christian, which kind do you mean?" She said "Well, mom says a lot of people don't go to church, but they still love Jesus and try to follow his teachings". I said "Yeah, I'm that kind." Which is true. I have no problem with Jesus or his teachings, only his followers and their ********.

 

[Father Heathen]

I am not suggesting that you accept any assertions. Science hasn't accepted the God theory, neither have they rejected it. They haven't even made a statement on the matter. That is because they don't make assertions without evidence. The atheist has made an assertion and closed the book on the God theory. Unlike science, they do not remain open on that which has not been proved or disproved. They are acting on a hunch.

No, they've only came to the most logical conclusion based on the available evidence. With nothing to actually observe, experience or test; thoughts on god are just empty speculation.

 

[dust1n]

Yeah, good point. I've noticed the same thing.

The fact that theists don't really seem any more "comfortable" than atheists suggests to me that the old line about religion giving people comfort doesn't have much truth to it.

The biggest factor I've noticed is economic standing and self-image.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Sure, I can imagine a scenario where I might be cornered into lying to a child, but I'm very clever at avoiding such situations.

Congratulations. XD Personally I am not as concerned about a harmless lie as I am about reassuring a dying child.

Question: you recommend to "assure the child that s/he is loved and admired by everyone s/he knows". Unless it isn't true, right?

 

[Father Heathen]

You see things from a narrow viewpoint my friend. First off, all I said was it did not matter whether there is a God or not, religion gives me comfort. I further said that Pascal's wager was a poor tool for conversion.

You morph that statement into a full scale attack on Pascal's wager which I am not debating. In other words, you refuse to let me agree with you, ( I know, thats a scary concept).

It does not matter that Christianity is not the only religion which is the last nail in the Pascal's wager debate where the Atheist always wins.

When you remove the element of conversion, it means a Muslim remains a Muslim while a Jew remains a Jew or even a Satanist remains a Satanist. It's not about who is right or wrong. It is about the comfort a religious person receives.

It is about how you feel, not who is wrong or right.

One last question, which is better, to be right and suffer or to be wrong and comfortable? Perhaps you chose the former for yourself, but what about your loved ones? If they where about to die and was having a hard time dealing with the situation, would you lie to give them comfort as they draw their last breath?

The only thing I objected too was the suggestion that Pascal's wager has a valid point.
I don't have a problem with people's beliefs unless it effects their actions and behavior in a negative way, especially if that entails trying to impose their beliefs upon others and trying to infringe upon the rights and liberty of others. As far as comfort, that's fine but it can still be a gray area. For example people not worrying about the state of the world because they think god is going to come and make things right any day now. I have no problem with the concept of god in and of itself and can respect stances such as agnosticism and deism, but not the unsubstantiated and often irrational presumptions of organized religions. And most of those presumptions often require a lot of denial, self deceit, willful ignorance and intellectual dishonesty, none of which is healthy or helpful.

 

[Alceste]

Congratulations. XD Personally I am not as concerned about a harmless lie as I am about reassuring a dying child.

Question: you recommend to "assure the child that s/he is loved and admired by everyone s/he knows". Unless it isn't true, right?

Yep pretty much. Probably our difference of opinion stems from my belief that only the truth is genuinely reassuring. Granted, I have no proof for that, it's just how I feel.

For example, I was engaged to a cheater for years who told me reassuring lies. Did they reassure me? No, they confused me and upset me to the point where at times I felt physically ill. At one point my legs just wouldn't hold me up, I was so disturbed by his reassuring comments. Why would I react like that? After all, what was coming out his mouth was a bunch of sappy, romantic BS that on the lips of someone who genuinely felt that way would have been wonderful to hear. Coming from him it made me feel simply awful.

Do I ever want to put anyone in that situation, let alone a dying child? No. I'm happy to stick with the truth as I know it and hope for the best.

 

[LuisDantas]

I must agree. Reassuring lies are often very damaging. Dying children, perhaps most of all people, deserve to learn the truths that they might need in order to choose how best to spend their remaining life.

 

[Renji]

Each of us have different beliefs. So I think, whether their belief and/or someone else's belief is 'sad', we should leave it to them

 

[Jeremiah]

I am not suggesting that you accept any assertions. Science hasn't accepted the God theory, neither have they rejected it. They haven't even made a statement on the matter. That is because they don't make assertions without evidence. The atheist has made an assertion and closed the book on the God theory. Unlike science, they do not remain open on that which has not been proved or disproved. They are acting on a hunch.

The scientific method rejects gods as a valid scientific theory because they are unfalsifiable. In other words, you have to have real evidence.

"Unlike science, they do not remain open on that which has not been proved or disproved."

Science, like many atheist, is open to evidence. Gods are not a valid scientific theory because there is no evidence that they exist. Many atheist don't take gods as real because of a total lack of evidence. They are doing the same thing.

I know you think science is somehow taking the middle ground on this, but it is not. It is waiting for evidence, just like so many atheist. Science has nothing to say about gods because, to this date, no one has been able to provide real evidence for their existence. And while you may think unfalsifiability is impressive it really is not at all very convincing.

----

But, speaking for myself, I'll tell you right now that there are no gods. This is not just a simple hunch. As not only do gods lack supporting evidence, they also lack the support of sound reasoning and one can clearly tell they are constructs of the human mind.

And I know many theist would agree with me on that, they just don't realize it. Just apply it to something else other then gods; like the Loch Ness Monster or Big Foot. For anything but gods most theist are just as skeptical as atheist. And they would not accept the same augments they use in defense of gods if given to them in defense of Big Foot. In fact they'd fall back on the arguments atheist use against gods. They make special exceptions for gods and the differences here is that most atheist don't. Atheist treat gods like theist treat the other over-imaginative human notions.

 

[Jeremiah]

I must agree. Reassuring lies are often very damaging. Dying children, perhaps most of all people, deserve to learn the truths that they might need in order to choose how best to spend their remaining life.

Well, perhaps, it is not what is best for the kid. But hey, at least, it is he easiest path for the adult.


( I have to wonder if, perhaps, that would be the real motivation for lying in that situation. )

 

[Jeremiah]

This becuase-it-makes-me-happy makes it seem materialistic and self-centered. Is there no duty to truth?

 

[Panda]

On balance, I disagree with the responses of most atheists on the question about the child dying of cancer. I can easily imagine a situation where it would bring a dying child a lot of comfort to say, "Yes, you're going to heaven, and grandma is already there waiting for you ..." etc. It's not difficult to imagine situations where it would be heartless to say otherwise.

Though I don't think I would have asked such a question as a child, that whole idea has always seemed alien to me. If I ever have children I would probably raise them in a similar manner to how I was so it probably wouldn't occur to me. If it was someone else's child that is a question I have no business answering but would probably just honestly say "I don't know"

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

On balance, I disagree with the responses of most atheists on the question about the child dying of cancer. I can easily imagine a situation where it would bring a dying child a lot of comfort to say, "Yes, you're going to heaven, and grandma is already there waiting for you ..." etc. It's not difficult to imagine situations where it would be heartless to say otherwise.

But like I pointed out before, this sort of situation would probably only come up if the child had been trained with some idea of God and Heaven beforehand.

It's not as if dying of cancer suddenly makes a kid Christian. If he's asking about Heaven, it's probably because he's been taught from an early age that Heaven is real.

At that stage, the decision to teach the child that these things are true wasn't being made in this rare circumstance where the child you're teaching them to won't suffer any ill effects from his beliefs being wrong, and where he won't make any decisions on the basis of those wrong beliefs that will affect others.


(BTW - just to remind anyone who doesn't feel like going back through the last few pages: I'm not trying to say that teaching a child about religion is necessarily wrong; this discussion flowed out of Rick's argument that teaching a child things that are "wrong but comforting" can be the right thing to do)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Though I don't think I would have asked such a question as a child, that whole idea has always seemed alien to me. If I ever have children I would probably raise them in a similar manner to how I was so it probably wouldn't occur to me. If it was someone else's child that is a question I have no business answering but would probably just honestly say "I don't know"

My first reaction would probably be to ask the child "what do you think?"

 

[Autodidact]

Religion gives me comfort. If it is false comfort or not does not matter.

That's so sad.