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The Atonement Doctrine (Did Jesus Die For Our Sins?)

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Jews don't believe in the resurrection of the dead (or so I've been told on this website) and Jesus and Christians do. ;)
[I'm just making a joke ... wait til you meet him and ask him yourself.] [shrug]

Who told to you that Jesus believed in bodily resurrection? He would not contradict his own gospel aka the Tanach.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
You do realize that the "Day of Atonement" was only one part of the atonement system, right? That there were sacrifices, rites and practices for atonement every day and that not all of it had to do with sacrifice or blood. I mean, all that stuff you like to quote from Lev 5 is not about the Day of Atonement.

And the sin is not transferred to a goat. The service also required fiery coals and incense (Lev 16:12). Do you want to say that the atonement transfer was onto coal or incense. There was confession and leaning on animals. Maybe the transfer was into words! Then the sacrifice would be a sacrifice, only part of an atonement system. Crazy, right? And the scapegoat? Sent into the wilderness. Can you show me where there was any blood involved with that goat?

TIA.
Correct, the point being if all the other sacrifices completed atonement, why was the day of atonement even required ? If daily sacrifices did the job ( although, as you point out there were sacrifices for other things) They day of atonement, ALL the people gathered together to atone for their sins. The blood sacrifices wetre made, Two goats were selected, one was sacrificed, the other, symbolically or literally, received the sins of all the people, and was led into the wilderness. Blood sacrifice for atonement, removal and transference of sin. There was no need for blood with the scapegoat, blood had already been spilled for the atonement. The scapegoat was the visual vehicle for removal of the sin as a result of the sacrifices. They were good to go for another year, then their sin required another day of atonement
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
1 - Christians do not have a direct covernant with God, nor an equivalent to the Jewish law. Though we do hold to the ten commandments.

2 - Our sins are our own, but can be forgiven when we truly repent through the Grace of God. I do not believe that Jesus Death and resurrection changed that at all, and that that has always been so for everyone.

3 - Jesus placed no limit on the forgiveness of God, or on his love. Though it is clear that we must play our part and love others as our selves.

4 - I would have perhaps been easier if Christians did have a Law...as it stands, the situation is open ended, with an unlimited possible potential sins and sins of omission.

1 - You say, "direct". No one does. The Covenant we have with God was established through Abraham first and then Moses, being the tokens of those covenants, the circumcision through Abraham and the Law through Moses. I thought Christians had one through Paul.

2 - That's the truth.

3 - Forget it! Naturally, we cannot love others as we love ourselves. The commandment to love another as we love ourselves is only an embellishment to enhance the power of love.

4 - Whether you wish or not, we all have laws to obey to keep ourselves out of troubles. Any one who denies that is in denial of commonsense.
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Oh, I see what you’re saying. I happen to agree with you. Even though for simplicity’s sake, I identify as a Christian, I don’t ‘’like’’ the label. I just follow Jesus, but that is considered Christianity by most standards. Do you believe Jesus existed? Just wondering.

To follow Jesus Deidre is to obey his gospel aka the Tanach. The NT he never even dreamed it would ever rise. If you read Isaiah 56:1-8, those who join God's Covenant with His People will get a name better than sons and daughter. Check it out if you please!
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Correct, the point being if all the other sacrifices completed atonement, why was the day of atonement even required ? If daily sacrifices did the job ( although, as you point out there were sacrifices for other things) They day of atonement, ALL the people gathered together to atone for their sins. The blood sacrifices wetre made, Two goats were selected, one was sacrificed, the other, symbolically or literally, received the sins of all the people, and was led into the wilderness. Blood sacrifice for atonement, removal and transference of sin. There was no need for blood with the scapegoat, blood had already been spilled for the atonement. The scapegoat was the visual vehicle for removal of the sin as a result of the sacrifices. They were good to go for another year, then their sin required another day of atonement
Ah, here's the problem. If you say that sin was transferred then you have a problem. The goat in the wilderness isn't killed so no blood. The blood that was spilled was NOT from an animal that had the sins on it. If this "transference" was really real and necessary, no other sacrifice for atonement could ever be effective since it is never done in other situations. If it isn't necessary, so the textual statements of other atonement sacrifices being effective are accurate then transference isn't necessary.

If blood was necessary then flour couldn't work.
If blood was necessary then intentional sins could never be atoned for.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
1 - You say, "direct". No one does. The Covenant we have with God was established through Abraham first and then Moses, being the tokens of those covenants, the circumcision through Abraham and the Law through Moses. I thought Christians had one through Paul.

2 - That's the truth.

3 - Forget it! Naturally, we cannot love others as we love ourselves. The commandment to love another as we love ourselves is only an embellishment to enhance the power of love.

4 - Whether you wish or not, we all have laws to obey to keep ourselves out of troubles. Any one who denies that is in denial of commonsense.

1) Paul nor any one else has established a Covernant with God.
It is thought Jesus established a New Covernant but if so when? how? And What? Lots of fellow christians have answers to these questions but I find them all unconvincing.

3) To love others as ourselves is a target, in the same way as the Jewish law is a target, not to be forgotton or not striven for... but rarely achieved.
4)Rather than Laws we have the teachings of Jesus... which advise our morals, laws and way of life. We also recognise our version of the Old testament. Which provides a constant guide of to how to live a good and godly life. And is referenced in every Christian service.
 

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
Well, I don't find hard to obey the Decalogue. Not as Paul did that the only way out was to teach freedom from the Law with the death of Jesus. (Romans 7:1-7)
Okay your understanding what I'm saying you know Saul/ Moses conscious prick (prick as a verb) right. When Moses came down (Aaron did nothing matter a of fact provoked it; even said the calf just popped out the oven) after all the miracles God did to move them. What does Moses do; Moses drops the 10 commandments kills his brothers and sister and children, kills his neighbor, and the levites join in. Everything against what God had spoke about. And think it was Stephen that said that you guys transgress through Moses the tabernacle of the living God. (I could say a bit more maybe its in the merciful side)
Anyways what I was going to point out, is that Paul was freakin NOT Hellenistic.. He definitely coming from that angle when he attacked people who worshipped God Jesus in flesh as the Christ.
 
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Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Okay your understanding what I'm saying you know Saul/ Moses conscious prick (prick as a verb) right. When Moses came down (Aaron did nothing matter a of fact provoked it; even said the calf just popped out the oven) after all the miracles God did to move them. What does Moses do; Moses drops the 10 commandments kills his brothers and sister and children, kills his neighbor, and the levites join in. Everything against what God had spoke about. And think it was Stephen that said that you guys transgress through Moses the tabernacle of the living God. (I could say a bit more maybe its in the merciful side)
Anyways what I was going to point out, is that Paul was freakin NOT Hellenistic.. He definitely coming from that angle when he attacked people who worshipped God Jesus in flesh as the Christ.

This is too pagan a message to understand. Sorry, but I couldn't make any sense out of it.
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
1) Paul nor any one else has established a Covernant with God.
It is thought Jesus established a New Covernant but if so when? how? And What? Lots of fellow christians have answers to these questions but I find them all unconvincing.

3) To love others as ourselves is a target, in the same way as the Jewish law is a target, not to be forgotton or not striven for... but rarely achieved.
4)Rather than Laws we have the teachings of Jesus... which advise our morals, laws and way of life. We also recognise our version of the Old testament. Which provides a constant guide of to how to live a good and godly life. And is referenced in every Christian service.

Jesus established no new covenant of any sort. The New Covenant aka the New Jewish World Order according to Jeremiah 31:31 was established soon after the return of the Jews from Babylon.
So, you say that "rather then the Law, we have the teachings of Jesus." Are you sure! Take a look at Luke 16:29-31. Jesus rather taught to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. That was the teaching of Jesus.
Do Christians live according to "Moses" aka the Law? If not, they don't have Jesus but Paul who was rather released from the Law as he claimed. (Romans 7:1-7)
 

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
Jesus established no new covenant of any sort. The New Covenant aka the New Jewish World Order according to Jeremiah 31:31 was established soon after the return of the Jews from Babylon.
So, you say that "rather then the Law, we have the teachings of Jesus." Are you sure! Take a look at Luke 16:29-31. Jesus rather taught to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. That was the teaching of Jesus.
Do Christians live according to "Moses" aka the Law? If not, they don't have Jesus but Paul who was rather released from the Law as he claimed. (Romans 7:1-7)

Then they asked him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?”

27 He answered, “I have told you already you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples too?”

28 Then they hurled insults at him and said, “You are this fellow’s disciple! We are disciples of Moses! 29 We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don’t even know where he comes from.
 

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
Then they asked him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?”

27 He answered, “I have told you already you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples too?”

28 Then they hurled insults at him and said, “You are this fellow’s disciple! We are disciples of Moses! 29 We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don’t even know where he comes from.
Also I don't wish some death (ROMANS) :)
 

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
Then they asked him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?”

27 He answered, “I have told you already you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples too?”

28 Then they hurled insults at him and said, “You are this fellow’s disciple! We are disciples of Moses! 29 We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don’t even know where he comes from.
And you also know too.. that paul was blinded then had an eye problem only healed more made better after the understanding and through Jesus Christ (had to be put into the that) because saul/moses followed the example of moses coming down from the mount.
 
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Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Jesus established no new covenant of any sort. The New Covenant aka the New Jewish World Order according to Jeremiah 31:31 was established soon after the return of the Jews from Babylon.
So, you say that "rather then the Law, we have the teachings of Jesus." Are you sure! Take a look at Luke 16:29-31. Jesus rather taught to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. That was the teaching of Jesus.
Do Christians live according to "Moses" aka the Law? If not, they don't have Jesus but Paul who was rather released from the Law as he claimed. (Romans 7:1-7)

Christians have a different meaning of the "New Covernant"
The reported teachings of Jesus in the four Gospels, have a very different slant to The Jewish Laws.
It is true that he was himself a Jew, and clearly knew the Law very well, but his interpretation of it, and the way he applied it to situations through his parables was exceedingly liberal, and extended beyond the Jews to the gentiles.

Paul never had the opportunity to learn from Jesus as a desciple, and while he was an important and influential apostle, he had to obtain his knowledge from those who had followed Jesus, and apply it to the new situation.
It could be argued that Christians should follow the law, but it clearly does not apply to Gentiles.
Christians are not a sect of Judaism.
Christians believe that Jesus brought a new message directly from God. It is on this that they base their faith.
 

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
Christians have a different meaning of the "New Covernant"
The reported teachings of Jesus in the four Gospels, have a very different slant to The Jewish Laws.
It is true that he was himself a Jew, and clearly knew the Law very well, but his interpretation of it, and the way he applied it to situations through his parables was exceedingly liberal, and extended beyond the Jews to the gentiles.

Paul never had the opportunity to learn from Jesus as a desciple, and while he was an important and influential apostle, he had to obtain his knowledge from those who had followed Jesus, and apply it to the new situation.
It could be argued that Christians should follow the law, but it clearly does not apply to Gentiles.
Christians are not a sect of Judaism.
Christians believe that Jesus brought a new message directly from God. It is on this that they base their faith.
Its just a small circumcision on the heart; the difference here it's not nasty look:


When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain.
Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor. 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded,
Paul when named Saul came against Christians; well actually they were still consider Jews and a few others who believed Jesus; the same way that Moses was angered and said his mind set forth.
Now imagine if that was Jesus coming down from the mountain (40 days) like Moses
The point is that Paul blinded by that idealism of Moses that he was struck by Jesus Christ, and decides to proceed as Jesus said; Love thy neighbor etc or love one and another as I have loved.. The Holy Spirit that circumcised the heart on the mount convict you of sin and righteousness.

Of course there is more parallels to Jesus not just one.



25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.

27 Then he Moses::: said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor. 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”

30 The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin.But now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”
Extended.....

1Now when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mountain, the people assembled about Aaron and said to him, “Come, make us a god who will go before us; as for this Moses, the man who brought us up from the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.” 2Aaron said to them, “Tear off the gold rings which are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me.” 3Then all the people tore off the gold rings which were in their ears and brought them to Aaron. 4He took this from their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool and made it into a molten calf; and they said, “This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt.” 5Now when Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made a proclamation and said, “Tomorrow shall be a feast to the LORD.” 6So the next day they rose early and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.

7Then the LORD spoke to Moses, “Go down at once, for your people, whom you brought up from the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves. 8“They have quickly turned aside from the way which I commanded them. They have made for themselves a molten calf, and have worshiped it and have sacrificed to it and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!’” 9The LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, they are an obstinate people. 10“Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.” Moses pleaded for them (Jesus Christ) One mediator, Priest find it again in Hebrews.
Why?
30And it came to be on the next day that Mosheh said to the people, “You, you have sinned a great sin. And now I am going up to יהוה – if I might atone for your sin.”

31And Mosheh returned to יהוה and said, “Oh, these people have sinned a great sin, and have made for themselves a mighty one of gold!

32“And now, if You would forgive their sin, but if not, please blot me out of Your book which You have written.”

33And יהוה said to Mosheh, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I blot him out of My book.

34“And now, go, lead the people to the place of which I have spoken to you. See, My Messenger goes before you. And in the day of My visitation I shall visit their sin upon them.” Remember that's why! Mediator in the New Covenant Jesus Christ,
Melchizedek found in Hebrews.
or (yes God was unhappy) moses slinging at ya by his interpretations of God's anger, ugh.
Devil comes to kill steal and destroy but I have come to give you life and life abundantly quote Jesus.
 
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