The Atonement Doctrine (Did Jesus Die For Our Sins?)

[meghanwaterlillies]

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God

 

[shmogie]

If the Romans did not accuse Jesus of any thing, who ordered that plate with the verdict of Jesus to be nailed on the top of Jesus' cross? Pilate. The verdict read INRI. That Jesus had been crucified on the political charge of insurrection for being acclaimed by his own disciples to be king of the Jews in Jerusalem. (Luke 19:37-40) It means that the Jewish authorities had nothing to do with the crucifixion of Jesus. So, the accusation that they had condemned Jesus to the cross was a slander by the author of the gospel who was a Hellenist former disciple of Paul. Besides, not a single Jew wrote a single page of the NT. Jews would not write against their own Faith. Last but not least, the power of jurisdiction to condemn any one to death in Israel had been removed and forbidden by Rome as long as Rome was in power in Israel.

You forget Pilate was ruling over a nation that was constantly in unrest. He had a responsibility to preserve the peace, and had used force in other area's where he was posted (which the Romans did in 70 AD). He recognized that working with the sanhedrin would would give him an advantage in controlling the province. They wanted Christ crucified, they lobbied Pilate to see that it was done. Pilate made it absolutely clear that he found Jesus innocent, but would for his own reasons follow through on it. Your assertion that any Gospel writer was a "student of Paul", or a Hellenist is rank speculation, you have absolutely no proof to substantiate your assertions.

 

[shmogie]

What does the severity have to do with it? The Romans were cruel.

You know what I'd like? A Roman transcript of said trial. I know what the Gospels say about it, but there are little things like historical facts that get in the way of a story possibly largely plagarizing the Trial and Death of Socrates, only changing the characters and just how verbose the defense and prosecution are.

Nonsense, present your alleged historical facts

 

[shmogie]

I believe I do not see that in those verses. I believe this is a case of Jesus being killed because of the sins of the Pharisees and the Romans. The people who died in the San Bernardino massacre died because of the sins of the terrorists. However Jesus was not being killed for any sin that He committed against God. No doubt he sinned by being good when those who are evil did not want that.

Christ never sinned in any way, shape or form

 

[shmogie]

Yes and no. Belief is a start, but it is much more that that. The bible does not say that the "only" thing you have to do is believe. So what then saves us from our sins?....
It is knowledge and repentence, baptism, truth, belief, endurance, faith. Salvation is a process. If it wasnt, scripture would be written differently.

Even the demons believe, Salvation is solely and completely by faith (sola fide) There is NOTHING anyone can do earn salvation, it comes by the acceptance of it as a totally free gift

 

[metis]

If Pilate was convinced that Jesus was innocent, Jesus would not have been crucified in all likelihood. Pilate was ruthless, and the Barabbas narrative is highly suspect to say the least.

Secondly, it is clear that faith alone simply isn't enough for "salvation", which is made perfectly clear in Matthew 25 and also the Sermon In the Mount. The point become that if one truly believes in Jesus, they will obey what he says, and what he repeated said is that one must live out the gospel and not just pay lip service to it.

Thirdly, the issue of whether Jesus sinned or not is an issue of faith and cannot be considered to be a fact, particularly in light of subjective writings.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

If Pilate was convinced that Jesus was innocent, Jesus would not have been crucified in all likelihood. Pilate was ruthless, and the Barabbas narrative is highly suspect to say the least.

Secondly, it is clear that faith alone simply isn't enough for "salvation", which is made perfectly clear in Matthew 25 and also the Sermon In the Mount. The point become that if one truly believes in Jesus, they will obey what he says, and what he repeated said is that one must live out the gospel and not just pay lip service to it.

Thirdly, the issue of whether Jesus sinned or not is an issue of faith and cannot be considered to be a fact, particularly in light of subjective writings.

I will say based on scriptures that regarding the side of prophecy many times I can use it as toliet paper mostly or mostly started in the roman outside world.As far as intent and being a prick pointless having no prophecy of knowing anything & they were into their funky oracles yet it seems to even conclude that they dont know what prophecy is last time for bull crap. The soldiers hit Jesus and said prophecy this time who hit you tell us again; you can look that up. Which means that the outside vision of oracles are usually only for intent or just pointless lie. Example a couple years back I watched a couple of people think how big they thought themselves with their dreams and visions. It was like they would start off that the grand canyon would fall this year then they have another dream or vision that california would fall into the ocean. Endless. Were they appointed to be dicks of lies? Like the roman soliders well maybe coming from prideful side for their own fame maybe. Anyways; Well if you told them that none of their stuff happened they would scream at u that you are causing division in the church how dare gods anonited. Yes I'm a sinner who told u the truth. I could fart a cloud all by myself of false prophecy if I wanted to and scream but its for G O D. By the time they got popular they thought themselves big like the romans over nothing. Also themselves knowing they lied. Even to make themselves more they start talking like with lol hebrew words and talking like jewish Or wishing it be so lol. Sounded more ever changing using calendar days to become even more likeable I guess even though nothing they said happened

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

I will say based on scriptures that regarding the side of prophecy many times I can use it as toliet paper mostly or mostly started in the roman outside world.As far as intent and being a prick pointless having no prophecy of knowing anything & they were into their funky oracles yet it seems to even conclude that they dont know what prophecy is last time for bull crap. The soldiers hit Jesus and said prophecy this time who hit you tell us again; you can look that up. Which means that the outside vision of oracles are usually only for intent or just pointless lie. Example a couple years back I watched a couple of people think how big they thought themselves with their dreams and visions. It was like they would start off that the grand canyon would fall this year then they have another dream or vision that california would fall into the ocean. Endless. Were they appointed to be dicks of lies? Like the roman soliders well maybe coming from prideful side for their own fame maybe. Anyways; Well if you told them that none of their stuff happened they would scream at u that you are causing division in the church how dare gods anonited. Yes I'm a sinner who told u the truth. I could fart a cloud all by myself of false prophecy if I wanted to and scream but its for G O D. By the time they got popular they thought themselves big like the romans over nothing. Also themselves knowing they lied. Even to make themselves more they start talking like with lol hebrew words and talking like jewish Or wishing it be so lol. Sounded more ever changing using calendar days to become even more likeable I guess even though nothing they said happened ... if california ever falls into the ocean it never did not even near the time. So even if it ever did I wouldnt be like yeah. Since they would get a dream a vision ever day and it was always so immediate because if its not immediate they cant keep ears with them

 

[Thief]

Even the demons believe, Salvation is solely and completely by faith (sola fide) There is NOTHING anyone can do earn salvation, it comes by the acceptance of it as a totally free gift

not buying that....

I think you just confused faith compared to righteous

 

[shmogie]

not buying that....

I think you just confused faith compared to righteous

No, one can only be righteous by faith, One can only be righteous by accepting Christ's righteousness, through his substitutionary life

If Pilate was convinced that Jesus was innocent, Jesus would not have been crucified in all likelihood. Pilate was ruthless, and the Barabbas narrative is highly suspect to say the least.

Secondly, it is clear that faith alone simply isn't enough for "salvation", which is made perfectly clear in Matthew 25 and also the Sermon In the Mount. The point become that if one truly believes in Jesus, they will obey what he says, and what he repeated said is that one must live out the gospel and not just pay lip service to it.

Thirdly, the issue of whether Jesus sinned or not is an issue of faith and cannot be considered to be a fact, particularly in light of subjective writings.

Pilate was way to wiley a governor not to sacrifice one innocent to keep the sanhedrin in line to quell revolt. He was like the liberals of today, the end justifies the means. If one has faith they will do the things of faith. As Martin Luther said, " Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, then do what you want". Why is the Barrabas narrative suspect, based on what ? I suggest you carefully read the book of Romans, then Hebrew's

 

[moorea944]

Even the demons believe, Salvation is solely and completely by faith (sola fide) There is NOTHING anyone can do earn salvation, it comes by the acceptance of it as a totally free gift

I agree with you. Salvation will be a free gift from God. But... James also says that without works.... your faith is dead. Faith and works go together. God wants to see you do something about your faith and what you believe in.

Doesnt Jesus say, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

No, one can only be righteous by faith, One can only be righteous by accepting Christ's righteousness, through his substitutionary life

Pilate was way to wiley a governor not to sacrifice one innocent to keep the sanhedrin in line to quell revolt. He was like the liberals of today, the end justifies the means. If one has faith they will do the things of faith. As Martin Luther said, " Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, then do what you want". Why is the Barrabas narrative suspect, based on what ? I suggest you carefully read the book of Romans, then Hebrew's

Yes; but end say justify the means; has not been a thing of mine. It's not always a thing of lies or to make such up that way, ....

 

[Thief]

No, one can only be righteous by faith, One can only be righteous by accepting Christ's righteousness, through his substitutionary life

Pilate was way to wiley a governor not to sacrifice one innocent to keep the sanhedrin in line to quell revolt. He was like the liberals of today, the end justifies the means. If one has faith they will do the things of faith. As Martin Luther said, " Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, then do what you want". Why is the Barrabas narrative suspect, based on what ? I suggest you carefully read the book of Romans, then Hebrew's

still not buying that salvation by blood routine
and Pilate had to keep the peace
the Carpenter was becoming an embarrassment
especially after that small riot in the Temple

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

still not buying that salvation by blood routine
and Pilate had to keep the peace
the Carpenter was becoming an embarrassment
especially after that small riot in the Temple

The carpenter was probably the best thing they ever had lol

 

[metis]

No, one can only be righteous by faith, One can only be righteous by accepting Christ's righteousness, through his substitutionary life

Pilate was way to wiley a governor not to sacrifice one innocent to keep the sanhedrin in line to quell revolt. He was like the liberals of today, the end justifies the means. If one has faith they will do the things of faith. As Martin Luther said, " Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, then do what you want". Why is the Barrabas narrative suspect, based on what ? I suggest you carefully read the book of Romans, then Hebrew's

Luther's quote defies what's actually found in the gospels and epistles, plus totally contradicts what's in the Tanakh. He was a very troubled man who wanted to be assured of his "salvation", so he eventually believed in what he wanted to see.

As far as the Barabbas narrative is concerned, try and sell that as reflecting historical reality to a Roman historian and see what you get. There simply is no known precedence for this. Also, one should remember that all scriptures are subjective, so reading them as if they were objective history makes no sense.

Finally, I not only read the epistles you mention, I studied and taught them.

 

[shmogie]

Luther's quote defies what's actually found in the gospels and epistles, plus totally contradicts what's in the Tanakh. He was a very troubled man who wanted to be assured of his "salvation", so he eventually believed in what he wanted to see.

As far as the Barabbas narrative is concerned, try and sell that as reflecting historical reality to a Roman historian and see what you get. There simply is no known precedence for this. Also, one should remember that all scriptures are subjective, so reading them as if they were objective history makes no sense.

Finally, I not only read the epistles you mention, I studied and taught them.

Well, I studied and taught them as well. Like so many, you totally miss what Luther was saying. BTW Luther was not disturbed, he was the greatest figure of the second millenium, saving Christianity from stupidity and superstition. Back to his quotation you failed to grasp, If someone is totally inherently committed to God, they will by nature want to do good, and as far as possible, shun evil. Perfectly reasonable, perfectly right. To barrabas. I have studied at length Roman military governors in conquered provinces circa 200 BC - 200 AD. They had vast latitude to do whatever required to rule their province and keep the peace. So "precedent " is irrelevant, they didn't rule by precedent nor by "the book", they did whatever they thought would work, It is clear that Pilate, having tried brute force with the Jews once, with mixed result, adopted a different tactic. Judea was probably most rebellious and religiously fervent province in the empire. The Jews had a religious leadership that knew that they were in position at the whim of Pilate. So, Pilate, holding the cards kept them in power as long as he could use them. Passover was the most dangerous time for the Romans. To make the Roman pill easier to swallow, he had the custom of releasing one prisoner at Passover. A simple gesture aimed at the masses to make them believe that the Romans were the tiny bit flexible, and totally within the power of Pilate. I remember when skeptics were denying that that ever existed or was in Judea, calling the Biblical accounts false. They had to swallow this when inscriptions from the era were found, I don't give much crtedence to skeptics arguments

still not buying that salvation by blood routine
and Pilate had to keep the peace
the Carpenter was becoming an embarrassment
especially after that small riot in the Temple

The carpenter was probably the best thing they ever had lol

I agree with you. Salvation will be a free gift from God. But... James also says that without works.... your faith is dead. Faith and works go together. God wants to see you do something about your faith and what you believe in.

Doesnt Jesus say, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

You are right, but there is a distinction. Faith is the only way to salvation, period. James was saying that a person having the faith will do good works, if he doesn't his faith has died. Works are the result of true faith, not part of the means to achieve salvation. If it were, then how many good works are enough ? Does God keep a tally sheet ?

 

[Thief]

Well, I studied and taught them as well. Like so many, you totally miss what Luther was saying. BTW Luther was not disturbed, he was the greatest figure of the second millenium, saving Christianity from stupidity and superstition. Back to his quotation you failed to grasp, If someone is totally inherently committed to God, they will by nature want to do good, and as far as possible, shun evil. Perfectly reasonable, perfectly right. To barrabas. I have studied at length Roman military governors in conquered provinces circa 200 BC - 200 AD. They had vast latitude to do whatever required to rule their province and keep the peace. So "precedent " is irrelevant, they didn't rule by precedent nor by "the book", they did whatever they thought would work, It is clear that Pilate, having tried brute force with the Jews once, with mixed result, adopted a different tactic. Judea was probably most rebellious and religiously fervent province in the empire. The Jews had a religious leadership that knew that they were in position at the whim of Pilate. So, Pilate, holding the cards kept them in power as long as he could use them. Passover was the most dangerous time for the Romans. To make the Roman pill easier to swallow, he had the custom of releasing one prisoner at Passover. A simple gesture aimed at the masses to make them believe that the Romans were the tiny bit flexible, and totally within the power of Pilate. I remember when skeptics were denying that that ever existed or was in Judea, calling the Biblical accounts false. They had to swallow this when inscriptions from the era were found, I don't give much crtedence to skeptics arguments



You are right, but there is a distinction. Faith is the only way to salvation, period. James was saying that a person having the faith will do good works, if he doesn't his faith has died. Works are the result of true faith, not part of the means to achieve salvation. If it were, then how many good works are enough ? Does God keep a tally sheet ?

there are many who do good things....even in the Name of the Lord
and He knows them not

so no....He is not keeping score

 

[shmogie]

still not buying that salvation by blood routine
and Pilate had to keep the peace
the Carpenter was becoming an embarrassment
especially after that small riot in the Temple

The entire Jewish religion was based upon sacrifice by blood, as the transferred atonement for sin, the sin being transferred to the object of sacrifice. Yes, absolutely, Pilate had to keep the peace. Christ didn't embarrass Pilate, he couldn't have cared less about him. He had to keep his stooges, the sanhedrin in line as part of his method of rule. They were embarrassed. He did what he felt was required, but he did it in a way for them to understand clearly that he was in control

 

[rosends]

The entire Jewish religion was based upon sacrifice by blood, as the transferred atonement for sin, the sin being transferred to the object of sacrifice.

That's where you lose me. That is a complete misunderstanding of Judaism. Any conclusions which come as a result of that are doomed.

 

[shmogie]

Really ? What was the purpose of the sacrifices of various animals, and specifically those sacrificed on the day of atonement ? Why was there a scapegoat and what did it represent and why was it turned loose in the wilderness ?