The Atonement Doctrine (Did Jesus Die For Our Sins?)

[rosends]

Really ? What was the purpose of the sacrifices of various animals, and specifically those sacrificed on the day of atonement ? Why was there a scapegoat and what did it represent and why was it turned loose in the wilderness ?

There were animal sacrifices for a variety of reasons, every single day, most had nothing to do with atonement. A small section had to do with atonement, but atonement processes went beyond animal sacrifices. Limiting any discussion to a chatas or even an asham, but ignoring that none of this was for intentional sin, and that flour meal could be used to replace an animal sacrifice in some cases shows a lack of knowledge about Judaism. Also, the idea of "transference of guilt" onto the animal is a gross micharacterization of Judaism. But what do I know? I'm just a rabbi who has studied my own religion. I'll let you tell me what I am and what my heritage is.

Carry on.

 

[shmogie]

Really ? What was the purpose of the sacrifices of various animals, and specifically those sacrificed on the day of atonement ? Why was there a scapegoat and what did it represent and why was it turned loose in the wilderness ?

See Leviticus 4-16, Lev. 5;5 "And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the Lord for his sin which he has sinned , ............... a female goat or kid for a sin offering, and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin." Leviticus 16;29 "And this will be a statute forever unto you, that in the seventh month, and on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict your souls and do no work at all, for on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you to cleanse you so you will be clean before the Lord." In the Torah, there was no other way to atone for sin and be forgiven of sin but by blood sacrifice. I recognize that since 72 AD and the writing of the Talmud, the original design has been altered significantly. No matter, these priestly sacrifices are no longer needed, since the final atoning sacrifice for all was completed at the Cross. The blood sacrifices were a type pointing to the ultimate and final sacrifice of the Messiah

 

[shmogie]

See Leviticus 4-16, Lev. 5;5 "And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the Lord for his sin which he has sinned , ............... a female goat or kid for a sin offering, and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin." Leviticus 16;29 "And this will be a statute forever unto you, that in the seventh month, and on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict your souls and do no work at all, for on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you to cleanse you so you will be clean before the Lord." In the Torah, there was no other way to atone for sin and be forgiven of sin but by blood sacrifice. I recognize that since 72 AD and the writing of the Talmud, the original design has been altered significantly. No matter, these priestly sacrifices are no longer needed, since the final atoning sacrifice for all was completed at the Cross. The blood sacrifices were a type pointing to the ultimate and final sacrifice of the Messiah

Please Rabbi, if there are verses in the Torah that disprove the above, I would be happy for you to share them with me

 

[Ben Avraham]

Really ? What was the purpose of the sacrifices of various animals, and specifically those sacrificed on the day of atonement ? Why was there a scapegoat and what did it represent and why was it turned loose in the wilderness ?

The Scapegoat represented Israel the Ten Tribes. The Scapegoat used to be turned loose and pushed into the desert to make atonement for the sins of "many" aka those of Judah. (Isaiah 53:8,9) Two were the goats. One was the Scapegoat and the other the goat which represented Judah which would remain as a lamp in Jerusalem forever for the sake of David. (I Kings 11:36) Lots were thrown and, the Scapegoat was rejected by the Lord while Judah was confirmed to remain as a people before the Lord forever. (Psalm 78:67-70)

 

[Ben Avraham]

You forget Pilate was ruling over a nation that was constantly in unrest. He had a responsibility to preserve the peace, and had used force in other area's where he was posted (which the Romans did in 70 AD). He recognized that working with the sanhedrin would would give him an advantage in controlling the province. They wanted Christ crucified, they lobbied Pilate to see that it was done. Pilate made it absolutely clear that he found Jesus innocent, but would for his own reasons follow through on it. Your assertion that any Gospel writer was a "student of Paul", or a Hellenist is rank speculation, you have absolutely no proof to substantiate your assertions.

 

[rosends]

See Leviticus 4-16, Lev. 5;5 "And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the Lord for his sin which he has sinned , ............... a female goat or kid for a sin offering, and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin." Leviticus 16;29 "And this will be a statute forever unto you, that in the seventh month, and on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict your souls and do no work at all, for on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you to cleanse you so you will be clean before the Lord." In the Torah, there was no other way to atone for sin and be forgiven of sin but by blood sacrifice. I recognize that since 72 AD and the writing of the Talmud, the original design has been altered significantly. No matter, these priestly sacrifices are no longer needed, since the final atoning sacrifice for all was completed at the Cross. The blood sacrifices were a type pointing to the ultimate and final sacrifice of the Messiah

Start with Lev 5:11. Do you often get blood from flour?
Then you can read the Stone Edition, page 555
"The Torah now lists offerings that are required in order to atone for sins, in contrast to the offerings of the previous chapters that one brings voluntarily in order to elevate oneself spiritually.

These offerings cannot atone for for sins that were committed intentionally. No offering is sufficient to remove the stain of such sinfulness; that can be done only through repentance and a change of the attitudes that made it possible for the transgressor to flout God's will. On the other hand, if the sin was committed accidentally and without intent, no offering is needed.

Sin offerings are needed to atone for deeds that were committed inadvertently, as a result of carelessness. As Ramban points out, even though they were unintentional, such deeds blemish the soul and require that it be purified, for if the sinner had sincerely regarded them with the proper gravity, the violations would not have occurred. As experience teaches, people are careful about things that matter to them, but tend to be careless about trivialities. Had the Sabbath, for example, been truly important to the inadvertent sinner, he would not have "forgotten" what day of the week it was. Had he been as scrupulous as he should have been about avoiding forbidden foods, he would not have carelessly confused forbidden fat with permitted fat.

This provides perspectives on the Torah's view of sin, it provides no "ritual" to atone for intentional sins, only God can see into man's heart and judge whether he has truly repented.Source: Sherman, R. Nosson et al (2004). The Chumash, Stone Edition. Menorah Publications, NY. Page 555. "
---------------------------
So in the case of unintentional sins, a bloodless flour offering suffices.
In the case of intentional sins, a sacrifice won't do it.

Do you have any other insights into Judaism?

Here is some more stuff for you to gloss over

https://books.google.com/books?id=b1tG-zw2M-AC&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=source+tshuva+torah&source=bl&ots=hppr6WNRVt&sig=_xvXoXMNrNpg7Q3d7jpSSDw1DqU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUt_Wdzp7PAhWH34MKHdE4DYEQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=source tshuva torah&f=false

Maybe some other time we can discuss your comments about human sacrifice and one man dying for the sins of another, 2 ideas which are alien to Judaism.

 

[Ben Avraham]

You forget Pilate was ruling over a nation that was constantly in unrest. He had a responsibility to preserve the peace, and had used force in other area's where he was posted (which the Romans did in 70 AD). He recognized that working with the sanhedrin would would give him an advantage in controlling the province. They wanted Christ crucified, they lobbied Pilate to see that it was done. Pilate made it absolutely clear that he found Jesus innocent, but would for his own reasons follow through on it. Your assertion that any Gospel writer was a "student of Paul", or a Hellenist is rank speculation, you have absolutely no proof to substantiate your assertions.

The Sanhedrin was composed more of Pharisees than Sadducees. Pilate could not work with Pharisees. They did not want Jesus crucified. This is a slander. There is nothing more vital in the life of a Jew than the Law and, considering that Jesus
confirmed the Law down to the letter according to Mat. 5:17-19, no Jew would ever ask foreigners occupiers of our Land to execute a loyal Jew on the cross. If you read "The Wars of the Jews" by Josephus, Pilate would never listen to Jews whom he couldn't hate more. My assertion about the gospel writers having been former disciples of Paul is no empty speculation because there is not much of a difference between the gospels and the Letters of Paul.

 

[Ben Avraham]

What do you think his prayer in the Garden was about?
What about the heart.

Jesus' prayers in the Gethsemane were meant to persuade God to change His mind about the cross in the life of Jesus as it was not Jesus' will to die on the cross for no one. Since he got no Divine response, he said: "Be thy will done, NOT mine." What was Jesus' will? It is only too obvious that Jesus walked the Via Dolorosa against his will.

 

[shmogie]

The Sanhedrin was composed more of Pharisees than Sadducees. Pilate could not work with Pharisees. They did not want Jesus crucified. This is a slander. There is nothing more vital in the life of a Jew than the Law and, considering that Jesus
confirmed the Law down to the letter according to Mat. 5:17-19, no Jew would ever ask foreigners occupiers of our Land to execute a loyal Jew on the cross. If you read "The Wars of the Jews" by Josephus, Pilate would never listen to Jews whom he couldn't hate more. My assertion about the gospel writers having been former disciples of Paul is no empty speculation because there is not much of a difference between the gospels and the Letters of Paul.

Sorry, but you are wrong on all counts.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

If

Jesus' prayers in the Gethsemane were meant to persuade God to change His mind about the cross in the life of Jesus as it was not Jesus' will to die on the cross for no one. Since he got no Divine response, he said: "Be thy will done, NOT mine." What was Jesus' will? It is only too obvious that Jesus walked the Via Dolorosa against his will.

Okay here we go.. I'm not shifting at you because even pilate please read ..

Luke 23:7-12English Standard Version (ESV)

7 And when he learned that he belonged to A)' data-cr="#cen-ESV-25933A">Herod's jurisdiction, he sent him over to Herod, who was himself in Jerusalem at that time. 8 When Herod saw Jesus, he was very glad, B)' data-cr="#cen-ESV-25934B">for he had long desired to see him, C)' data-cr="#cen-ESV-25934C">because he had heard about him, and he was hoping D)' data-cr="#cen-ESV-25934D">to see some sign done by him. 9 So he questioned him at some length, but he made no answer. 10 The chief priests and the scribes stood by, vehemently accusing him. 11 And Herod with his soldiers E)' data-cr="#cen-ESV-25937E">treated him with contempt and F)' data-cr="#cen-ESV-25937F">mocked him. Then, G)' data-cr="#cen-ESV-25937G">arraying him in splendid clothing, he sent him back to Pilate. 12 And H)' data-cr="#cen-ESV-25938H">Herod and Pilate became friends with each other that very day, for before this they had been at enmity with each other.
Lk 9:9
' data-resourcename="esv">nfor he had long desired to see him, [URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#']Mt 14:1 [URL='http://www.religiousforums.com/reference/Mk6.14?resourceName=esv']Mk 6:14
' data-resourcename="esv">obecause he had heard about him, and he was hoping Mt 12:38
' data-resourcename="esv">pto see some sign done by him. [URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#']Mk 9:12 [URL='http://www.religiousforums.com/reference/Ac4.11?resourceName=esv']Ac 4:11
' data-resourcename="esv">qtreated him with contempt and Lk 18:32
' data-resourcename="esv">rmocked him. Then, [URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#']Mt 27:28 [URL='http://www.religiousforums.com/reference/Mk15.17?resourceName=esv']Mk 15:17
' data-resourcename="esv">sarraying him in splendid clothing, he sent him back to Pilate. Ac 4:27 [URL='http://www.religiousforums.com/reference/Ps2.2?resourceName=esv']Ps 2:2
' data-resourcename="esv">tHerod and Pilate became friends with each other that very day, for before this they had been at enmity with each other.
[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

If

Okay here we go.. I'm not shifting at you because even pilate please read ..

Luke 23:7-12English Standard Version (ESV)

7 And when he learned that he belonged to A)' data-cr="#cen-ESV-25933A">Herod's jurisdiction, he sent him over to Herod, who was himself in Jerusalem at that time. 8 When Herod saw Jesus, he was very glad, B)' data-cr="#cen-ESV-25934B">for he had long desired to see him, C)' data-cr="#cen-ESV-25934C">because he had heard about him, and he was hoping D)' data-cr="#cen-ESV-25934D">to see some sign done by him. 9 So he questioned him at some length, but he made no answer. 10 The chief priests and the scribes stood by, vehemently accusing him. 11 And Herod with his soldiers E)' data-cr="#cen-ESV-25937E">treated him with contempt and F)' data-cr="#cen-ESV-25937F">mocked him. Then, G)' data-cr="#cen-ESV-25937G">arraying him in splendid clothing, he sent him back to Pilate. 12 And H)' data-cr="#cen-ESV-25938H">Herod and Pilate became friends with each other that very day, for before this they had been at enmity with each other.
Lk 9:9
' data-resourcename="esv">nfor he had long desired to see him, [URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#']Mt 14:1 [URL='http://www.religiousforums.com/reference/Mk6.14?resourceName=esv']Mk 6:14 [/URL][/URL]
[URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#']' data-resourcename="esv">obecause he had heard about him, and he was hoping [URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#']Mt 12:38
[URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#']' data-resourcename="esv">pto see some sign done by him. [URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#']Mk 9:12 [URL='http://www.religiousforums.com/reference/Ac4.11?resourceName=esv']Ac 4:11 [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]
[URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#']' data-resourcename="esv">qtreated him with contempt and [URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#']Lk 18:32
[URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#']' data-resourcename="esv">rmocked him. Then, [URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#']Mt 27:28 [URL='http://www.religiousforums.com/reference/Mk15.17?resourceName=esv']Mk 15:17 [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]
[URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#']' data-resourcename="esv">sarraying him in splendid clothing, he sent him back to Pilate. [URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#']Ac 4:27 [URL='http://www.religiousforums.com/reference/Ps2.2?resourceName=esv']Ps 2:2 [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]
[URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#']' data-resourcename="esv">tHerod and Pilate became friends with each other that very day, for before this they had been at enmity with each other.
[URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'] [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

[URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#'][URL='http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk23.7#']
I don't think the Pharisees trusted in Christ[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

 

[Ben Avraham]

Sorry, but you are wrong on all counts.

It doesn't help to be sorry. Prove it with the proper evidences.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

So what do you think I think happened there.. even at Jesus Christ expense many Jews because of that came to believe in Jesus Christ.. Ironic..

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

That's when the persecution started, when Pilate and Herod got friendly then Jewish Christians, yes other people converted to Christianity that weren't jewish but from other faiths but sometimes they liked to call them jewish when they are not and also let me not forget a bit of the mess: getting a "woman" of Babylon in a since who gets much profit.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

That's when the persecution started, when Pilate and Herod got friendly then Jewish Christians, yes other people converted to Christianity that weren't jewish but from other faiths but sometimes they liked to call them jewish when they are not and also let me not forget a bit of the mess: getting a "woman" of Babylon in a since who gets much profit.

Also at the expense of losing their wives to the whorish side of doctrines and selling them out. Some of the romans believe God. Some without that.

 

[shmogie]

Start with Lev 5:11. Do you often get blood from flour?
Then you can read the Stone Edition, page 555
"The Torah now lists offerings that are required in order to atone for sins, in contrast to the offerings of the previous chapters that one brings voluntarily in order to elevate oneself spiritually.

These offerings cannot atone for for sins that were committed intentionally. No offering is sufficient to remove the stain of such sinfulness; that can be done only through repentance and a change of the attitudes that made it possible for the transgressor to flout God's will. On the other hand, if the sin was committed accidentally and without intent, no offering is needed.

Sin offerings are needed to atone for deeds that were committed inadvertently, as a result of carelessness. As Ramban points out, even though they were unintentional, such deeds blemish the soul and require that it be purified, for if the sinner had sincerely regarded them with the proper gravity, the violations would not have occurred. As experience teaches, people are careful about things that matter to them, but tend to be careless about trivialities. Had the Sabbath, for example, been truly important to the inadvertent sinner, he would not have "forgotten" what day of the week it was. Had he been as scrupulous as he should have been about avoiding forbidden foods, he would not have carelessly confused forbidden fat with permitted fat.

This provides perspectives on the Torah's view of sin, it provides no "ritual" to atone for intentional sins, only God can see into man's heart and judge whether he has truly repented.Source: Sherman, R. Nosson et al (2004). The Chumash, Stone Edition. Menorah Publications, NY. Page 555. "
---------------------------
So in the case of unintentional sins, a bloodless flour offering suffices.
In the case of intentional sins, a sacrifice won't do it.

Do you have any other insights into Judaism?

Here is some more stuff for you to gloss over

https://books.google.com/books?id=b1tG-zw2M-AC&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=source+tshuva+torah&source=bl&ots=hppr6WNRVt&sig=_xvXoXMNrNpg7Q3d7jpSSDw1DqU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUt_Wdzp7PAhWH34MKHdE4DYEQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=source tshuva torah&f=false

Maybe some other time we can discuss your comments about human sacrifice and one man dying for the sins of another, 2 ideas which are alien to Judaism.

Must you be so flippant in a discussion ? Judaism as it was is all I am concerned about. What it is today is nothing like what was laid down in the Torah, that is between you, your co religionists, and God. Actually, it is all irrelevant for me, a Gentile.

Start with Lev 5:11. Do you often get blood from flour?
Then you can read the Stone Edition, page 555
"The Torah now lists offerings that are required in order to atone for sins, in contrast to the offerings of the previous chapters that one brings voluntarily in order to elevate oneself spiritually.

These offerings cannot atone for for sins that were committed intentionally. No offering is sufficient to remove the stain of such sinfulness; that can be done only through repentance and a change of the attitudes that made it possible for the transgressor to flout God's will. On the other hand, if the sin was committed accidentally and without intent, no offering is needed.

Sin offerings are needed to atone for deeds that were committed inadvertently, as a result of carelessness. As Ramban points out, even though they were unintentional, such deeds blemish the soul and require that it be purified, for if the sinner had sincerely regarded them with the proper gravity, the violations would not have occurred. As experience teaches, people are careful about things that matter to them, but tend to be careless about trivialities. Had the Sabbath, for example, been truly important to the inadvertent sinner, he would not have "forgotten" what day of the week it was. Had he been as scrupulous as he should have been about avoiding forbidden foods, he would not have carelessly confused forbidden fat with permitted fat.

This provides perspectives on the Torah's view of sin, it provides no "ritual" to atone for intentional sins, only God can see into man's heart and judge whether he has truly repented.Source: Sherman, R. Nosson et al (2004). The Chumash, Stone Edition. Menorah Publications, NY. Page 555. "
---------------------------
So in the case of unintentional sins, a bloodless flour offering suffices.
In the case of intentional sins, a sacrifice won't do it.

Do you have any other insights into Judaism?

Here is some more stuff for you to gloss over

https://books.google.com/books?id=b1tG-zw2M-AC&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=source+tshuva+torah&source=bl&ots=hppr6WNRVt&sig=_xvXoXMNrNpg7Q3d7jpSSDw1DqU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUt_Wdzp7PAhWH34MKHdE4DYEQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=source tshuva torah&f=false

Maybe some other time we can discuss your comments about human sacrifice and one man dying for the sins of another, 2 ideas which are alien to Judaism.

Commentaries are OK, but I SPECIFICALLY asked for verses from the book, not someone saying what they think it means. Are you sure you want Lev 5;11 to be the foundation of your argument ? You make an issue of unintentional sin whatever that may be, I am talking about the knowledgeable act in violation of the law. You still haven't addressed the issue of the day of atonement or the signifigance of the scapegoat. Human sacrifice is not the issue, one sinful man cannot die for another. As Paul says, sin came into the world by the act of one sinless man, Adam, remission and atonement was made by the second Adam, sinless, the Messiah, the Son of God, part of the Godhead itself. I am sorry the Jewish people missed it, it came to them first, no matter, it is what it is.

 

[shmogie]

Jesus' prayers in the Gethsemane were meant to persuade God to change His mind about the cross in the life of Jesus as it was not Jesus' will to die on the cross for no one. Since he got no Divine response, he said: "Be thy will done, NOT mine." What was Jesus' will? It is only too obvious that Jesus walked the Via Dolorosa against his will.

Wrong, his will was God's will. Seeing what was coming he was fearful, but he could have walked away if it was against his will. He did not, he followed God's will which was his

 

[shmogie]

It doesn't help to be sorry. Prove it with the proper evidences.

You made the assertions, not I, where are your references ?

 

[Ben Avraham]

That's when the persecution started, when Pilate and Herod got friendly then Jewish Christians, yes other people converted to Christianity that weren't jewish but from other faiths but sometimes they liked to call them jewish when they are not and also let me not forget a bit of the mess: getting a "woman" of Babylon in a since who gets much profit.

Christians did not exist yet at that time. Christians started when Paul started preaching his gospel about 30 years in the future. Read Acts 11:26.

 

[shmogie]

You made the assertions, not I, where are your references ?

How do you know who composed the sanhedrin ? How do you know Pilate couldn't work with pharisees ? How do you know anybody didn't want Christ crucified ?