The Atonement of Jesus Christ and Why It Needed to Happen.

[Trailblazer]

Do you think Jews have never been imprisoned or judged unfairly? Let's start with Auschwitz.

I just don't see this as particularly difficult. I'm not sure why this is a problem for you.

LIke I said, the remnant of Israel does suffer vicariously for Israel.

As I always say, verses can be made to support any belief they want to support.
You can say the same about how I support my beliefs with verses if you want to.

The only thing that really matters is what God intended for them to mean.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

OP, your original premise that atonement requires a sacrifice is wrong. There are many examples in Torah of atonement without any sacrifice.

Would you mind sharing a few of these examples?

 

[Trailblazer]

Friend. I am not arguing with you. I am only stating my beliefs, according to what I have read concerning the manner. I understand where you come from and that's what we can get out of this conversation.

If God, in your eyes, doesn't need to resurrect us as immortal bodies, than He doesn't need to. To be honest, that is probably the dumbest thing to argue about in the end of all things. We resurrect as flesh and bone. We resurrect as spiritual energy. As long as we live after this life, I'm cool with that.

I am cool with that too and I know we continue to live after this life, of that I am certain.

I am sorry if I sounded argumentative. I come from a long line of attorneys.
But it's not just that, I am used to Christians who argue with me, as most all of them disagree with me and argue for their beliefs. You are a refreshing exception to what I have experienced.

As long as we gain understanding and strive to do good and be good for each other, believing in Christ and follow his words. I think we'll make it whatever happens.

For know I'm still going to keep learning.

That is a good attitude to have. I believe we can continue to learn till the end of this life and that we continue to progress in the spiritual world, throughout all of eternity.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

 

[Trailblazer]

Matthew 26:28 Luke 22:20 Matthew 20:28 Matthew 1:21 Luke 1:68. I hope you read these because I think I already answered you concerning this. I don't know where you get your information from that the Gospels contain nothing about the atonement, but it would be very beneficial to read the Gospels first before making such claims.

Okay, I read those and I am okay with the belief that Jesus died for our sins and as a ransom for many, as long as it is not tied in with the doctrine of original sin. I just remembered that is even written in the Baha'i scriptures so I am obliged to believe it.

“That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be demonstrated unto men. The purpose of God, moreover, was to sacrifice him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. This same honor, Jesus, the Son of Mary, besought the one true God, exalted be His name and glory, to confer upon Him. For the same reason was Ḥusayn offered up as a sacrifice by Muḥammad, the Apostle of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 75-76

It is also written that Jesus sanctified the soul of the sinner:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things...... Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

Okay, I read those and I am okay with the belief that Jesus died for our sins and as a ransom for many, as long as it is not tied in with the doctrine of original sin. I just remembered that is even written in the Baha'i scriptures so I am obliged to believe it.

“That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be demonstrated unto men. The purpose of God, moreover, was to sacrifice him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. This same honor, Jesus, the Son of Mary, besought the one true God, exalted be His name and glory, to confer upon Him. For the same reason was Ḥusayn offered up as a sacrifice by Muḥammad, the Apostle of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 75-76

It is also written that Jesus sanctified the soul of the sinner:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things...... Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

Awesome! I'm glad you got some clarity. Sometimes it is the traditions of beliefs that entangle prejudices on what other's belief. The original sin doesn't pertain to me by the way. It only marks the first sin ever performed that removed Man from God's presence in the Garden (a necessary event of God's plan). We are not bound by it. God will never require us to repent of a sin we didn't commit. Adam committed that Sin and therefore only he is responsible for that. Our sins are ours and so we are responsible for them. God doesn't punish us because a man in the start of his creation ate a fruit he wasn't supposed to. That is ridiculous to think about.

 

[Trailblazer]

Awesome! I'm glad you got some clarity. Sometimes it is the traditions of beliefs that entangle prejudices on what other's belief. The original sin doesn't pertain to me by the way. It only marks the first sin ever performed that removed Man from God's presence in the Garden (a necessary event of God's plan). We are not bound by it. God will never require us to repent of a sin we didn't commit. Adam committed that Sin and therefore only he is responsible for that. Our sins are ours and so we are responsible for them. God doesn't punish us because a man in the start of his creation ate a fruit he wasn't supposed to. That is ridiculous to think about.

That is also what I believe. We re only responsible for the sins we commit.

 

[Thief]

First, I need to know if you are speaking of when Israel first came into Canaan thousands of years ago, or if you are referring to the creation of the Israeli state?

that moment when Moses could see the land
but not allowed to go there

 

[Spartan]

For me it makes no sense to say that Christianity is the "legitimate fulfillment of Old Testament Judaism" when in fact Judaism still exists.

Judaism exists without a Temple, sacrifices, and without recognition of its Messiah, Jesus.

 

[Spartan]

They are the legitimate fulfillment of some of Old Testament Judaism, but not all of it, since not all the prophecies were fulfilled by Christ, and that is one reason Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah.

They deny the second coming when the remainder of the Messianic prophecies are expected to be fulfilled.

Various rabbis of old considered Daniel 9 to be a prophecy of the Messiah:

Maimonides (Rabbi Moses Ben Maimon): "Daniel has elucidated to us the knowledge of the end times. However, since they are secret, the wise [rabbis] have barred the calculation of the days of Messiah’s coming so that the untutored populace will not be led astray when they see that the End Times have already come but there is no sign of the Messiah" (Igeret Teiman, Chapter 3 p.24.)

"Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi: "I have examined and searched all the Holy Scriptures and have not found the time for the coming of Messiah clearly fixed, except in the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written in the 9th chapter of the prophecy of Daniel (The Messiah of the Targums, Talmuds and Rabbinical Writers, 1971) p.141-142.

Daniel 9 has this passage: “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah ('anointed one') shall be cut off, but not for Himself....and war will continue until the end."

So even Daniel concedes the necessity of a 2nd coming for the Messiah to wrap things up. Same with Isaiah 53.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Judaism exists without a Temple, sacrifices, and without recognition of its Messiah, Jesus.

Yes, Judaism can and does exist without its Temple and sacrifices. It's not the ideal -- we really need to build the third temple. But we can and do get by. Hosea told us what to do: "so we will render the words of our lips (prayers) as bullocks (sacrifices)." Hosea 14:2

Jesus is not the Messiah. He did not fulfill the prophecies that the Messiah is to fulfill.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

that moment when Moses could see the land
but not allowed to go there

God gave the land to Israel and instructed them to go within. The iniquities of the people within had reached its full. Remember that the Land ultimately doesn't belong to any people but to God -- God can entrust it to whomever he chooses, and God chose to entrust it to Israel.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

As I always say, verses can be made to support any belief they want to support.
You can say the same about how I support my beliefs with verses if you want to.

The only thing that really matters is what God intended for them to mean.

I think the fact that secular scholars, who don't have a dog in the race, also accept the position that Isaiah 53 is about Israel, is a big support for my position. And again, my position is the simplest position, because it does not engage anything supernatural.

 

[1213]

...Without it, Jesus's death would mean nothing and God would have been a unjust, ceasing to be God.

I think it means a lot, even if it is not really payment for God. Bible tells that the reason Jesus died is this:

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9

By dying it came possible for him to be raised from the death. And that way his disciples got the courage to continue without fearing death. And by so, this came true:

Most assuredly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.
John 12:24

I think that is one of the main reasons why it was allowed Jesus to die.

I don’t think Bible tells God required death to forgive sins, because it was possible to forgive sins even before death of Jesus. But, in a way Jesus is a sacrifice, because he used his life for us, for our benefit.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

not at all.....you say Jews have died
at the hand of Christians

moving into occupied territory was …...peaceful?

It really is a different topic. Really. God did not instruct Christians to persecute, torture, and kill Jews.

 

[metis]

It's not the ideal -- we really need to build the third temple.

Not to disagree with you personally, but some within Judaism don't share your opinion. Some at least tend to feel that the Temple had its time and place but that the destructions of the Temple led to greater emphasis on Torah and a greater emphasis on study with less emphasis on ritual.

 

[Spartan]

Jesus is not the Messiah. He did not fulfill the prophecies that the Messiah is to fulfill.

"Various Christian and Messianic Jewish websites list up to 300 Old Testament Messianic prophecies that Jesus fulfilled during his first advent. But the objections from Jewish rabbis and others deal with the remainder of the Messianic prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled. These include the rebuilding of the third Jewish Temple, the destruction of the enemies of Israel, and a thousand year millennial reign by the Messiah – Messiah ben David, the conquering king.

The answer to those objections is simple: Christian theology teaches that Jesus will fulfill the remaining prophecies during his Second Coming. So the objection is premature."

What's more - there are only two places in the Tanakh that I know of that predict / prophesy WHEN the Messiah will appear in history, and both of them predict the 1st century.

Here they are:

Until Shiloh Comes

DANIEL'S 70 WEEKS PROPHECY

 

[Trailblazer]

They deny the second coming when the remainder of the Messianic prophecies are expected to be fulfilled.

They deny that there will be a Second Coming of Jesus because they do not believe that there was a First Coming of Jesus. They await the Messiah that is made in their own image, according to their interpretation of the Scriptures, and in that sense they do exactly what Christians do.

Daniel 9 has this passage: “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah ('anointed one') shall be cut off, but not for Himself....and war will continue until the end."

So even Daniel concedes the necessity of a 2nd coming for the Messiah to wrap things up. Same with Isaiah 53.

Daniel and Isaiah surely do concede to the coming of a Messiah, but they do not say who the Messiah will be. Nowhere do they say it will be the same man Jesus; Christians just 'assumed' that the Messiah would be Jesus, in spite of the fact that Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world (John, 17:4, John 17:11). Jesus never said He was coming back to 'wrap things up', that is a Christian belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think the fact that secular scholars, who don't have a dog in the race, also accept the position that Isaiah 53 is about Israel, is a big support for my position.

But that does not prove anything.

 

[Spartan]

They deny that there will be a Second Coming of Jesus because they do not believe that there was a First Coming of Jesus. They await the Messiah that is made in their own image, according to their interpretation of the Scriptures, and in that sense they do exactly what Christians do.

To deny the historical Jesus is sophomoric tomfoolery.

Daniel and Isaiah surely do concede to the coming of a Messiah, but they do not say who the Messiah will be. Nowhere do they say it will be the same man Jesus; Christians just 'assumed' that the Messiah would be Jesus, in spite of the fact that Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world (John, 17:4, John 17:11). Jesus never said He was coming back to 'wrap things up', that is a Christian belief.

I think the Book of Revelation adequately portrays Jesus "wrapping things up."

Jesus said, "I come in my father's name and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name (perhaps the antichrist), he you will receive."

What the Jews who don't believe is that Jesus is Resurrected, but they can't back that belief up in a million years with any kind of evidence or compelling argument.

 

[Shaul]

Would you mind sharing a few of these examples?

David was forgiven after confessing his sins and forgiven, without any sacrifice. In Psalms it is declared that the only sacrifice desired is a contrite heart. In Isaiah his sins are atoned by the application of coals onto his mouth. When Solomon dedicated the Temple he declared that when the Temple was not available the people would be forgiven (atoned for) if they repented, turned towards the site and prayed. They would get atonement specifically without any sacrifice being even possible. In Proverbs it says that through love and faithfulness (not sacrifices) comes atonement. Just a few examples.