The Atonement of Jesus Christ and Why It Needed to Happen.

[IndigoChild5559]

Who do YOU think it is about and why?

King Hezekiah. The answer is long, and I've had surgery and don't feel up to my usual full answers. (I've been snippy the last week or so because of all this health stuff, and I hope I haven't been with you.)

There is a lot written on this. Outreach Judaism /Tovia Singer deals with this question very well for inquiring Chrisitans. I'd google his site and maybe listen to his answers on the radio that are on YouTube. But its the Jewish position in general, so you will find it consistently represented.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

I am not saying that Jesus did not go through hell for the sins of the world. The only thing I do not agree with is that there was an original sin committed by Adam and Eve that had to be atoned for

Can you explain what you believe the original sin was and why it didn't have to be atoned for?

 

[Trailblazer]

King Hezekiah. The answer is long, and I've had surgery and don't feel up to my usual full answers. (I've been snippy the last week or so because of all this health stuff, and I hope I haven't been with you.)

There is a lot written on this. Outreach Judaism /Tovia Singer deals with this question very well for inquiring Chrisitans. I'd google his site and maybe listen to his answers on the radio that are on YouTube. But its the Jewish position in general, so you will find it consistently represented.

No, you have not been snippy. I hope you recovery from surgery and your health issues improve.

So you believe Isaiah 53 is about King Hezekiah. Coincidentally, I just got a post from a Jewish poster on another forum and he thinks Isaiah 53 is about the Jewish nation. Another Jewish poster on that forum also believes that Isaiah 53 is about the Jewish nation, and he had posted me the following a couple of years ago in support of that belief.

“The 53rd chapter of Isaiah is a beautiful, poetic song, one of the four “Servant Songs” in which the prophet describes the climactic period of world history when the Messiah will arrive and the Jewish people assume the role as the spiritual leaders of humanity.

Isaiah 53 is a prophecy foretelling how the world will react when they witness Israel's salvation in the Messianic era. The verses are presented from the perspective of world leaders, who contrast their former scornful attitude toward the Jews with their new realization of Israel's grandeur. After realizing how unfairly they treated the Jewish people, they will be shocked and speechless.”

http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/Isaiah_53_The_Suffering_Servant.html

 

[Trailblazer]

Can you explain what you believe the original sin was and why it didn't have to be atoned for?

I do not believe there was an original sin that has to be atoned for. I believe that humans are born good, since we are all made in the image of God, but all humans have a lower material nature (sinful nature) a higher spiritual nature (noble nature), and we have to choose between those two natures since we all have free will.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the material nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. How that freed us from our sinful nature is explained in this chapter:
29: Explanation of verse twenty-two, Chapter 15, of the first epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

I do not believe there was an original sin that has to be atoned for. I believe that humans are born good, since we are all made in the image of God, but all humans have a lower material nature (sinful nature) a higher spiritual nature (noble nature), and we have to choose between those two natures since we all have free will.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the material nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. How that freed us from our sinful nature is explained in this chapter:
29: Explanation of verse twenty-two, Chapter 15, of the first epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians

So you don't believed that Adam sinned?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, you have not been snippy. I hope you recovery from surgery and your health issues improve.

So you believe Isaiah 53 is about King Hezekiah. Coincidentally, I just got a post from a Jewish poster on another forum and he thinks Isaiah 53 is about the Jewish nation. Another Jewish poster on that forum also believes that Isaiah 53 is about the Jewish nation, and he had posted me the following a couple of years ago in support of that belief.

“The 53rd chapter of Isaiah is a beautiful, poetic song, one of the four “Servant Songs” in which the prophet describes the climactic period of world history when the Messiah will arrive and the Jewish people assume the role as the spiritual leaders of humanity.

Isaiah 53 is a prophecy foretelling how the world will react when they witness Israel's salvation in the Messianic era. The verses are presented from the perspective of world leaders, who contrast their former scornful attitude toward the Jews with their new realization of Israel's grandeur. After realizing how unfairly they treated the Jewish people, they will be shocked and speechless.”

http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/Isaiah_53_The_Suffering_Servant.html

OhI thought you were talking about Isaiah 9:6-7. sorry, I replied about the wrong verse.

Yes, Isaiah 53 is about Israel, specifically the remnant of Israel, which suffers on behalf of all of Israel, vicariously.

The reason for this is really quite simple. Throughout the book of Isaiah, a servant is mentioned over and over, and is identified as "My servant, Jacob." IOW Israel. This metaphor extends to the whole book of Isaiah. So really, when Isaiah speaks of the servant in chapter 53, it obviously refers to that same servant it has been discussing all along : Israel.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you don't believed that Adam sinned?

I believe that the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden is an allegorical story meant to convey universal spiritual truths. Some of those meanings are explained in this chapter: 30: ADAM AND EVE

I believe that Adam did exist but He was a Prophet, the first Prophet in the Adamic Cycle of religion, not a sinner.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

Ok, In this allegorical

I believe that the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden is an allegorical story meant to convey universal spiritual truths. Some of those meanings are explained in this chapter: 30: ADAM AND EVE

I believe that Adam did exist but He was a Prophet, the first Prophet in the Adamic Cycle of religion, not a sinner.

Perfect, so in this allegorical story meant to convey universal spiritual truths, did these characters describe, partake of a fruit that was forbidden by God to partake?

The answer is yes because I read your link. Ok, so what universal truth are we to learn from this.

My answer is that God created Adam and Eve (symbols or our first parents) perfectly. It only makes sense that a perfect being's creations are also perfect.

The decision to take the fruit was disobedient to God's commandment, making it a sin, yet not obstructive to God's plan which was introduce good and evil to the world, giving men the opportunity to choose the good and reject the evil.

We are not a product of Adam's sin, but a solution to it. There is a beautiful Scripture in the Book of Mormon about this. It says, " Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy."

So I believe what you believe. Men are inherently good. Adam's one known sin of eating the fruit, caused mortality (part of God's plan) and Christ's role was to redeem that mortality and convert it to immortality through his sacrifice. For all men died because of Adam, (suggesting becoming mortal), and in Christ came immortality (through the atonement.)

 

[Trailblazer]

OhI thought you were talking about Isaiah 9:6-7. sorry, I replied about the wrong verse.

Yes, Isaiah 53 is about Israel, specifically the remnant of Israel, which suffers on behalf of all of Israel, vicariously.

The reason for this is really quite simple. Throughout the book of Isaiah, a servant is mentioned over and over, and is identified as "My servant, Jacob." IOW Israel. This metaphor extends to the whole book of Isaiah. So really, when Isaiah speaks of the servant in chapter 53, it obviously refers to that same servant it has been discussing all along : Israel.

Whew! I am glad to hear you agree with the other Jewish posters on that other forum because I was starting to think that Jews disagree with each other as much as Christians disagree with each other.

The Jewish poster said: "Why should the servant of 53 be other than that of Chs. 41-52?"

I still believe that chapter is about Baha'u'llah, since it fits Him to a tee.
But here is what I found in Wikipedia:

The fourth song
Main articles: Isaiah 52 and Isaiah 53
Further information: Man of Sorrows
The fourth of the servant songs begins at Isaiah 52:13, continuing through 53:12 where it continues the discussion of the suffering servant.[12]

There is no clear identification for the servant within this song, but if the reader pays close attention to the author's word choice, one can deduce that the song could refer to either an individual or a group. According to theologian Michael Coogan, those who argue the servant to be an individual have "proposed many candidates from Israel's past".[13] The song declares that the "servant" intercedes for others, bearing their punishments and afflictions. In the end, he/they are rewarded.

It can be argued that the servant represents a group of people, more specifically the nation of Israel, and they feel that they have paid their dues and continue to suffer because of the sins of others (Isaiah 53:7,11-12). Also, through the author's choice of words, we, our, and they, one could also argue that the "servant" was a group.

Early in the passage, the evaluation of the servant by the "we" is negative: "we" esteemed him not, many were appalled by him, nothing in him was attractive to "us". But at the servant's death the attitude of the "we" changes after Isaiah 53:4, where the servant suffers because of "our" iniquities, "our" sickness, but by the servant's wounds "we" consequently are healed. Posthumously, then, the Servant is vindicated by God.

Many Christians believe this song to be among the messianic prophecies of Jesus. Methodist founder John Wesley suggested that it is "so evident" that "it is Christ who is here spoken of".[14] Jesus quoted this 4th servant song as referring to himself in Luke 22:37, and the New Testament cites it as referring to Jesus Christ in Matthew 8:17, Mark 15:28, John 12:38, Acts 8:32–33, Romans 10:16, 15:21 and 1 Peter 2:22.[15]

Servant songs - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok, In this allegorical

Perfect, so in this allegorical story meant to convey universal spiritual truths, did these characters describe, partake of a fruit that was forbidden by God to partake?

The answer is yes because I read your link. Ok, so what universal truth are we to learn from this.

My answer is that God created Adam and Eve (symbols or our first parents) perfectly. It only makes sense that a perfect being's creations are also perfect.

The decision to take the fruit was disobedient to God's commandment, making it a sin, yet not obstructive to God's plan which was introduce good and evil to the world, giving men the opportunity to choose the good and reject the evil.

We are not a product of Adam's sin, but a solution to it. There is a beautiful Scripture in the Book of Mormon about this. It says, " Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy."

So I believe what you believe.

Men are inherently good. Adam's one known sin of eating the fruit, caused mortality (part of God's plan) and Christ's role was to redeem that mortality and convert it to immortality through his sacrifice. For all men died because of Adam, (suggesting becoming mortal), and in Christ came immortality (through the atonement.)

I agree with your interpretation right up until you said: Adam's one known sin of eating the fruit, caused mortality (part of God's plan) and Christ's role was to redeem that mortality and convert it to immortality through his sacrifice.

I believe that God's plan was always that humans would be mortal and that is why the physical body is biologically programmed to die. With all due respect, I think it is absurd to believe that process could be reversed or that it would even be desirable to live in a physical body for all of eternity.

I believe that the death of man is merely his soul passing from one world into another, and when the soul passes from this world into the spiritual world it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements. Since there is nothing physical (e.g., oxygen, water, food) in the spiritual world (heaven) a physical body cannot exist there and is of no use to anyone. I also believe that Jesus is alive in heaven in a spiritual body that is immortal, not alive in a physical body.

So the immortal body is a spiritual body, not a physical body.

Back to the Tree of Life, below is a post I posted some time ago on a Christian forum.

Christians believe that the tree of life was a source of ongoing physical life, that Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life.

What is the Tree of Life?

“In Eden, the tree appears to have been a source of ongoing physical life. The presence of the tree of life suggests a supernatural provision of life as Adam and Eve ate the fruit their Creator provided. Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life. Once they sinned, they were banned from the Garden, separated from the tree, and subject to physical death, just as they had experienced spiritual death. Since Eden, death has reigned throughout history. But on the New Earth, our access to the tree of life is forever restored. (Notice that there’s no mention of a tree of the knowledge of good and evil to test us. The redeemed have already known sin and its devastation; they will desire it no more.)” What is the Tree of Life?

Baha’is believe that the tree of life is the Word of God which bestows eternal life. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits. Eternal life is a quality of life, of being near to God; it is not physical life, but spiritual life. God never created the physical body to live forever. Once the physical body dies, the soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world where it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements that exist in that realm.

It is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace. (Proverbs 3:17-18)

“The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary 4 was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity—that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.”

Some Answered Questions, p. 124
From: 30: ADAM AND EVE

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

I agree with your interpretation right up until you said: Adam's one known sin of eating the fruit, caused mortality (part of God's plan) and Christ's role was to redeem that mortality and convert it to immortality through his sacrifice.

I believe that God's plan was always that humans would be mortal and that is why the physical body is biologically programmed to die. With all due respect, I think it is absurd to believe that process could be reversed or that it would even be desirable to live in a physical body for all of eternity.

I believe that the death of man is merely his soul passing from one world into another, and when the soul passes from this world into the spiritual world it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements. Since there is nothing physical (e.g., oxygen, water, food) in the spiritual world (heaven) a physical body cannot exist there and is of no use to anyone. I also believe that Jesus is alive in heaven in a spiritual body that is immortal, not alive in a physical body.

So the immortal body is a spiritual body, not a physical body.

Back to the Tree of Life, below is a post I posted some time ago on a Christian forum.

Christians believe that the tree of life was a source of ongoing physical life, that Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life.

What is the Tree of Life?

“In Eden, the tree appears to have been a source of ongoing physical life. The presence of the tree of life suggests a supernatural provision of life as Adam and Eve ate the fruit their Creator provided. Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life. Once they sinned, they were banned from the Garden, separated from the tree, and subject to physical death, just as they had experienced spiritual death. Since Eden, death has reigned throughout history. But on the New Earth, our access to the tree of life is forever restored. (Notice that there’s no mention of a tree of the knowledge of good and evil to test us. The redeemed have already known sin and its devastation; they will desire it no more.)” What is the Tree of Life?

Baha’is believe that the tree of life is the Word of God which bestows eternal life. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits. Eternal life is a quality of life, of being near to God; it is not physical life, but spiritual life. God never created the physical body to live forever. Once the physical body dies, the soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world where it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements that exist in that realm.

It is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace. (Proverbs 3:17-18)

“The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary 4 was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity—that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.”

Some Answered Questions, p. 124
From: 30: ADAM AND EVE

I don't disagree with anything you have said. In fact I'm glad you bring the tree of life as he word of God because that is exactly how we symbolize the tree in my Church. I can also agree that there is a transformation from a physical state to a spiritual one. The body no longer has the impurities that causes it to wither. I would like to add that we are formed in the image of God. Whether it is a eternal body or spiritual body, it is still a finite structure with flesh and bone. Consider Christ's visitation Luke 24; 39.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't disagree with anything you have said. In fact I'm glad you bring the tree of life as he word of God because that is exactly how we symbolize the tree in my Church. I can also agree that there is a transformation from a physical state to a spiritual one. The body no longer has the impurities that causes it to wither. I would like to add that we are formed in the image of God. Whether it is a eternal body or spiritual body, it is still a finite structure with flesh and bone. Consider Christ's visitation Luke 24; 39.

How can it be both a physical body and a spiritual body? How can flesh and bone live forever?
Regarding Christ's visitation, there is no way to know that Christ ever said what was in those verses since we do not even know the authors of the Gospels. This presents a problem for people who think logically. Also, if we were formed in the image of God, God is not physical, so it would make sense that the part of us that lives forever is not physical.

 

[Thief]

I hope that my Non-Christian friends found this informative.

the Carpenter is my Inspiration

but I do refrain the label 'Christian' upon myself

I do not believe the saving grace was His bloody death
that was just a roll of circumstances very predictable
if you upset the authorities.....they will have you dead

I were a ring of my own handiwork
stainless steel with a large cross upon it

I do so to remind me....man made law is the law of condemnation
crucifixion is the end result

and this world will crucify anyone
even if you CAN walk on water

The Carpenter did NOT save anyone by dying

He taught in parables
such is His handiwork

teachings of heaven are dealt in metaphor.....parables
His parables ARE the grace of heaven

when He raised the Cup.....and declared His Blood
THAT was a metaphor

have you ears that hear?

 

[pearl]

It's a complicated time in history. The expulsion didn't win any friends. But it is certainly no excuse for 2000 years of antisemitic pogroms and persecutions. And I would say there were other factors, such as the fact that Romans were confusing the political messianism of Jews with the non-political messianism of Christians. To survive roman persecution, Christians pretty much had to kiss Roman tuchas and villianize the Jews instead. And some of it, quite frankly, was just plain prejudice against non-Hellenized peoples.

Yes, it was a complicated time. As I understand it the Jews were free to worship without persecution. But after the expulsion Christians no longer enjoyed that umbrella of protection and were now open to Roman persecution at the time of the compilation of John's gospel. Is not that curse against Christians remain one of the 'Benedictions'?
You are absolutely correct that there is no basis for continued antisemitism.

 

[Spartan]

Cut off from the land of the living? It makes a lot more sense to say that the remnant of Jews will suffer death.

Nope. It very clear: The suffering servant of Isaiah 53 was to be cut off from the land of the living. Jesus was, Israel never was. So your "Isaiah 53 is Israel" is a non event.

 

[Spartan]

Spartan, I notice you claim Christianity as your relligion, not Judaism. I don't know and don't care what views you as a Christian consider heretical. I'm just saying that we Jews get to determine what is a heresy in Judaism. It's our religion after all, not yours.

Judaism is the legitimate precursor to Biblical Christianity, but Christ and Christianity are the legitimate fulfillments of Old Testament Judaism. That's my view.

 

[1213]

Let's find out together then. A payment is needed:...

But because he couldn't pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, with his wife, his children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Matthew 18:25

That is a parable, that doesn't tell God requires payment to forgive sins.

When you shall vow a vow to Yahweh your God, you shall not be slack to pay it: for Yahweh your God will surely require it of you; and it would be sin in you.
Deuteronomy 23:21

That doesn't tell God requires payment to forgive sins.

Yes, I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Galatians 5:3

That doesn't tell God requires payment to forgive sins.

Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.
Matthew 6:12

That doesn't tell God requires payment to forgive sins.

being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; whom God set forth to be an atoning sacrifice [or, a propitiation], through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God's forbearance;
Romans 3:24-25

That doesn't tell God requires payment to forgive sins. But, Jesus became atoning sacrifice, because he used his life for us, so that we could be saved and was killed by men, because of that.

You were bought with a price. Don't become bondservants of men.
1 Corinthians 7:23

That doesn't tell God requires payment to forgive sins.

in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Ephesians 1:7

That doesn't tell God requires payment to forgive sins.

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15: 22

That doesn't tell God requires payment to forgive sins.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Hebrews 13:8

That doesn't tell God requires payment to forgive sins.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

But because he couldn't pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, with his wife, his children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Matthew 18:25

That is a parable, that doesn't tell God requires payment to forgive sins.

When you shall vow a vow to Yahweh your God, you shall not be slack to pay it: for Yahweh your God will surely require it of you; and it would be sin in you.
Deuteronomy 23:21

That doesn't tell God requires payment to forgive sins.

Yes, I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Galatians 5:3

That doesn't tell God requires payment to forgive sins.

Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.
Matthew 6:12

That doesn't tell God requires payment to forgive sins.

being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; whom God set forth to be an atoning sacrifice [or, a propitiation], through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God's forbearance;
Romans 3:24-25

That doesn't tell God requires payment to forgive sins. But, Jesus became atoning sacrifice, because he used his life for us, so that we could be saved and was killed by men, because of that.

You were bought with a price. Don't become bondservants of men.
1 Corinthians 7:23

That doesn't tell God requires payment to forgive sins.

in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Ephesians 1:7

That doesn't tell God requires payment to forgive sins.

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15: 22

That doesn't tell God requires payment to forgive sins.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Hebrews 13:8

That doesn't tell God requires payment to forgive sins.

Just by saying over and over again that these scriptures dont tell God requires payment to forgive sin, doesn't make these scriptures not talk about God's requirement to forgive sin. I wanted this to be a reasoning and it seems you just wanted to say what isn't for no reason at all.
To each his own, I suppose.
It's alright if you don't agree, that these parables and scriptures don't teach us something about redemption and atonement, even though they are supposed to. I thought these scriptures were obvious proof that Jesus fulfilled a price with his blood. That unsaid price was a demand made the Justice of God. For God willed it to be so for a reason. Without it, Jesus's death would mean nothing and God would have been a unjust, ceasing to be God.

 

[Trailblazer]

but Christ and Christianity are the legitimate fulfillments of Old Testament Judaism.

They are the legitimate fulfillment of some of Old Testament Judaism, but not all of it, since not all the prophecies were fulfilled by Christ, and that is one reason Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

How can it be both a physical body and a spiritual body? How can flesh and bone live forever?
Regarding Christ's visitation, there is no way to know that Christ ever said what was in those verses since we do not even know the authors of the Gospels. This presents a problem for people who think logically. Also, if we were formed in the image of God, God is not physical, so it would make sense that the part of us that lives forever is not physical.

I think you are stuck with physical and spiritual. I personally attribute the words of Pierre Chardin, a Jesuit Philosopher when he said, " We are not Human beings going through a spiritual experience, We are spiritual beings having a human experience." Consider 1. Corinthians 2:11,14. Our spiritual body and physical body are one in the same thing. sort of like how a caterpillar and a butterfly are the same even though they might have uniquely different characteristics.

Flesh and bone can live forever. Scientifically, as long as the cells regenerate without dying, a process that would have to miraculously take place during the resurrection, there is no reason that flesh couldn't live on forever. We already know of living organisms know as HeLa cells that are immortal. They will reproduce forever, such is the power of God.

As far as what Christ said and didn't say. That is really up to faith. I believe that Christ said everything that was written. I believe that God preserved his teachings to the point were whoever the Gospel writers were, they wrote about true events, and were inspired by God to be as accurately as humanly possible. There isn't a thing I would remove or discredit in the Bible. The only things that I would do is clarify the words that were already said, and that is what my goal is now.