The Atonement of Jesus Christ and Why It Needed to Happen.

[Spartan]

MJ's are like a grain of sand on the beach that is Jews. They are mistaken and apostates.

Nope, the stiff-necked crowd who kicked their Messiah Jesus Christ to the curb are the apostates.

 

[pearl]

No, heretical Jews. Seriously. This is why Chrisitans (along with other heretics) were kicked out of the synagogues 2000 years ago, and are still not part of Judaism to this day.

And this expulsion from the synagogue is reflected in the growth of antisemitism in the Gospel of John.

 

[metis]

And this expulsion from the synagogue is reflected in the growth of antisemitism in the Gospel of John.

As well as the statement in John 8 that says this: "[44] You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

If one reads previous verses from that verse, he is quite clearly talking about the Jews that have refused to adhere to "the Way".

 

[Harel13]

Baloney.

Kosher baloney or non-kosher baloney?
Now with all seriousness, why 'baloney'? I assume you say this because you yourself have taken the time to actually look through all of the rabbinical sources you enjoy linking - and when I say 'look through' I mean reading the entire source - or at least the surrounding paragraphs. I myself only brought some of the surrounding contextual sentences showing clearly that those rabbis did not mean - and in some cases, did not even say - what the missionary websites suggest they meant. I would therefore ask you to open up those same sources and show me in what way those rabbis - all of them - suggest that Isaiah 53 in its entirety (i.e. every single verse) refers to the messiah. Looking forward to your answer.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

Well, point taken. Maybe not me, since I am not particularly brave. I can't even watch normal injections at the movies. If I had been Jesus I would have probably miraculously created some internal anaesthesia so that it does not hurt too much, while keeping a face full of pain, for the show, you know. So that people are impressed and get the message, whatever that is.

But there have been many examples of "secular" heroism in history. For examples of people ready to sustain torture from Nazis, or during wars, etc. for their country, family, comrades, freedom, or whatever. And performed by people that did not know to have an important father in heaven that will resurrect them on Sunday.

They are remarkable for their courage. Your Jesus is not. Sorry. I am thrilled that you find it awesome, but you cannot reasonably expect that others can share that feeling.

As I said, it is like being very generous knowing that your bank account is always full.

In any case, if you move to physical pain, you guys should not say "He died for our sins", as if that was impressive, given that it was more like a short absence for our sins. You should say "He suffered for our sins". That would be more accurate.

Ciao

- viole

I am glad you brought this idea of impression. We are different people who get impressed by different things. I, admittedly, am easily impressed by almost everything.

I am impressed by the morning sunrise, of how light waves have traveled billions of miles to wake me up in the morning,

I am impressed by my little daughter being able to sit up for the first time by herself.

I'm impressed by the millions of livings cells in my body constantly working together to sustain my life and its functions.

There is little that doesn't impress me.

For me, any sacrifice, whether large or small, is impressive. I remember those who where wrongly treated and suffered, in hopes to be a part of community that will defend any occurrence of that happening again. I pray that people are impressed by those events so they would unite more rather than destroy later.

I am glad you honor this 'secular heroism' in an attempt to make you a better person. Do you consider the holocaust a sacrifice? If you do, I would commend you, because you would be suggesting that a good or benefit would come out of a travesty. Sometimes, this is a difficult concept to grasp. Often it is only through travesty that humanity learns how to get along.

Sadly what you consider a sacrifice, is not shared with everyone either, as wars and genocide still exist in the world. The sacrifice often seems it is vain if people are not at first impressed by it. This is the sad truth.

I would hope that although you may not be impressed by a seemingly innocent man's death as a response to change the world, I would at least hope you would acknowledge the legacy that Jesus Christ left. That of goodwill and peace to all. His sacrifice to many is not in vain. Those who follow Him, do so in respect to the sacrifice he made for mankind, which is to be free from sin, not so much for the resurrection of body, but for the cleanliness of soul.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

Everyone benefits from Jesus Christ? Wow, even the Atheist?!?
I believe you should make a soul search, ponder about where to find the truth, maybe ask questions further from your brethren, don't mind if you ask my brethren - not from their naughty minds but from the Bible which is the true basis of faith.

View attachment 39776

The Atheists benefits from the Atonement?

It must be your own personal opinion, I believe we should look for answers in the Bible.
Does every body benefit from the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ?
This is what Christ said:

Matthew 7:21-23 New International Version (NIV)
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

So if someone says everyone is going to heaven, maybe you should check what the Bible says.



Maybe your church does not teach the Bible because you have another Bible on hand [remember the golden plates with hieroglyphics given by Metatron or something during the Old days of the West?]

View attachment 39777View attachment 39778

What does the Book of Mormon teach? Well, it made me dizzy when I tried to read it a long time ago. It contains some stories about four ancient tribes who allegedly settled in the Americas.

Anyway, the Scripture records what the Bible is good for:

2 Timothy 3:15-17 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
You have known the Holy Scriptures since you were a child. These Scriptures are able to make you wise. And that wisdom leads to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by God. And all Scripture is useful for teaching and for showing people what is wrong in their lives. It is useful for correcting faults and teaching the right way to live. Using the Scriptures, those who serve God will be prepared and will have everything they need to do every good work.

Are we doing the right thing?
Look it up in the Bible
Do you want to know about Jesus Christ?
Look it up in the Bible.
Is this doctrine right or wrong?
Look it up in the Bible.

I believe it is time to question, unlearn things and learn from the Bible.
The Mormon Church is a nice topic to explore - I have read and watched videos about your beliefs
Is it Biblical? That is another thing that we could discuss extensively.

It seems you are very expressive in your comments and I really like that. I would love to talk about my Church's beliefs with you, if you would like to send me a personal conversation we could have that discussion whenever you'd like.

The other thing to understand, which i included in a previous comment was that God loves all his children, including the Atheist. He is not a respecter of men, and Christ's atonement was for all. The atonement satisfied the demands of death both physical and spiritual. It is the physical death that everyone will be saved from. Read Acts 24:15. The atonement had given the unjust a resurrection of body.

Of course, everyone, the atheist included are still subject to a spiritual death, which death comes from sin. James 1:15 The only way to be safe from this death is by following Christ and believing in his atonement. Which is easier than said than done.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is little that doesn't impress me.

For me, any sacrifice, whether large or small, is impressive.

Do you recognize the sacrifices that the Prophets of God have made for humanity? Do you even know the sacrifices they made?

I would hope that although you may not be impressed by a seemingly innocent man's death as a response to change the world, I would at least hope you would acknowledge the legacy that Jesus Christ left. That of goodwill and peace to all. His sacrifice to many is not in vain. Those who follow Him, do so in respect to the sacrifice he made for mankind, which is to be free from sin, not so much for the resurrection of body, but for the cleanliness of soul.

I am impressed and I believe that Jesus sacrificed Himself for the good of all mankind, to sanctify the soul if the sinner, because that is in accordance with my beliefs. I do not believe in original sin but I believe that we all have a sinful nature as well as a spiritual nature, and that Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature.

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?
Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.

Some Answered Questions, p. 118

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

What is the purpose for those christians and non-christians who know this?

There's a lot of information on atonement, is there a core reason to know this? For lack of better words.

I have found in my journey of finding truth ( a journey I'm still on by the way, I'm not saying I know everything) similarities in most major religions, particularly those who claim to believe the Abrahamic God, (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) My conversations with these institutions have led me to a conclusive decision that most of us have a poor idea of what the other believes, only interpretations of what their sect teaches them to believe. The example of the Atonement was one of them. A concept that isn't in fact foreign, just largely misunderstood.

Usually the biggest question I get asked (usually a rhetorical question as a way to jest the idea) is why would God sacrifice His Son. Why would he make him suffer and die for us when He could have just accepted our repentance?

This is the question I attempt to answer in a way that could be understood by the Abrahamic sects.

As far as the import of the Atonement, without it in the Abrahamic religions, there is no way to obtain salvation. It is by repentance (changing one's evil behavior), or atonement (reconciling yourself with God), that provides the means for admittance to God's promises according to these religions.

 

[Trailblazer]

The atonement satisfied the demands of death both physical and spiritual. It is the physical death that everyone will be saved from. Read Acts 24:15. The atonement had given the unjust a resurrection of body.

Acts 24:15 “And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.”

What do you think Paul meant, both of the just and unjust?

Given the physical body is mortal, how do you think everyone can be saved from physical death?
I hope you realize that not all Christians believe in the resurrection of the dead the same way you do. Below is what I believe happens to everyone when they die we die, which is in accordance with my Baha'i beliefs:

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

Of course, everyone, the atheist included are still subject to a spiritual death, which death comes from sin. James 1:15 The only way to be safe from this death is by following Christ and believing in his atonement. Which is easier than said than done.

I agree that we have to follow the teachings of Christ to be free of sin, but where in the Gospels did Jesus ever say we have to believe in His atonement? Jesus knew nothing of original sin, that is a Church doctrine. Jesus told us how to attain eternal life, by believing in Him, Jesus says nothing about any atonement.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

The problem for me in that is, I don’t think it is adequately supported by Bible.

Let's find out together then. A payment is needed: Matthew 18:25 (refer to the whole Parable, a great tool to learn about how we are all in debt) Deuteronomy 23: 21 (I don't believe this is just physical money as debt, more as it is promises we make to God debt) Galatians 5:3 Matthew 6: 12.

Christ's blood fulfilled this payment with his blood (sacrifice or atonement) Romans 3: 24-25. Corinthians 7:23 Ephesians 1:7 Colossian 1:14.

If you are referring to the atonement was for everyone past present and future, than Corinthians 15: 22 ( look at where it says all )

So in connecting the scriptures, we find that throughout history a payment was needed, Christ fulfilled that payment, Only through Faith in Chirst's sacrifice are we able to take advantage of that redemption, past, present, and future. Hebrews 13:8. Hebrew 11, the whole chapter.

 

[Trailblazer]

Christ's blood fulfilled this payment with his blood (sacrifice or atonement) Romans 3: 24-25. Corinthians 7:23 Ephesians 1:7 Colossian 1:14.

But we have nothing in any of the four Gospels of Jesus Christ that say anything about the atonement. Why?

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

What do you think Paul meant, both of the just and unjust?

He might have been referring to this. John 5:28-29 We know that all are going to be resurrected. Resurrection by definition, the spirit and body rejoining as one into an immortal state. Not just coming back alive from the dead, but receiving an immortal body as Jesus obtained after his death. Now, yes, resurrection of damnation is not a resurrection one would want to receive, but it is a resurrection never the less.

Living forever in sin leads to a hellish immortal existence which you may never be free from, which can bring no joy, in many ways is a curse rather than a gift, but it's only brought by one's own disobedience.

we have to believe in His atonement?

To me, you can't believe in someone, if you don't believe in the sacrifice they made for you. John 20: 25-29. His atonement was part of who Christ was, without it, Christ would have failed as the Savior. We would all have suffered from it. That is what I was meaning when I said believe in his atonement, just as Thomas had to feel the prints in his resurrected body to believe.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

But we have nothing in any of the four Gospels of Jesus Christ that say anything about the atonement. Why?

Friend. Read Matthew 26 particularly verse 28. The entire episode of the Garden of Gethsemane is riddled with the turmoil that Christ would have to go through for the sins of the world. Compare with Mark 14 23-24. These scriptures are not extensive, but I think this is what you need

 

[MJFlores]

The other thing to understand, which i included in a previous comment was that God loves all his children, including the Atheist. He is not a respecter of men, and Christ's atonement was for all.

Wouldn't it be wise to stop and look at what you wrote?
Is there a chance that you were misled?
or have not thought the things people taught you?

The first time I heard things like that was from the Roman pontiff Francis

The words of God in the Bible describes people who are Atheist

Psalm 14:1 New International Version (NIV)

The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.

Now you might say, even if they say there is no God, even if they are corrupt, even their deeds are vile and even they do not do good, these Atheist are going upstairs.

We may say things attractive, nice to hear, good for everybody but the rule book says otherwise.

2 Peter 2:6 New International Version (NIV)

if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

2 Peter 3:7 New International Version (NIV)

By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

And take note that the last two verses were quoted from apostle Peter.

Now I believe, you do share [in a general way] beliefs comparable to other denominations about Hell.
Below is an article from Huffpost.com and it is quite a read:


Mette Ivie Harrison, Contributor
Mormon in progress
Do Mormons Believe in Hell?
02/04/2016 02:52 pm ET Updated Feb 04, 2017

The short answer to this is simple: No. Many Mormons casually refer to “hell” in the same way that other Christians do, as a place of punishment where sinners are sent by a wrathful God. Even The Book of Mormon mentions hell as a place of fire and pain (1 Ne 9:10 and Helaman 6:28), a place that can be avoided by obedience to God and His commandments. But this is largely a metaphorical place. We can feel we are in “hell” even in this world because we are disobedient to God and His commandments and feel the consequences of bad decisions. We can also feel that we are in “hell” in this world if we are separated from God and His abounding love for us.

Do Mormons Believe in Hell? | HuffPost

And below is from the official website of the Mormon Church

Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory. (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101).

Hell

So base on your doctrines, you will gonna meet Adolf Hitler, Ted Bundy and the rest of the gang, in telestial glory [whatever that is]. I think that is going to be a nightmare all over again. But this one is on steroids.

If there is a JW in the house, I would appreciate if you could comment on this.

This is the problem when people go out from the Bible and accept another gospel - people create their own teachings - teachings of men and not of God.

Now this came from the Bible and it said:

Galatians 1:6-9 New International Version (NIV)
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

After that being said, is the picture below familiar?

Is that an angel from heaven?
And is that a gospel which the apostles of Christ never taught to the first Church?

 

[Trailblazer]

We know that all are going to be resurrected. Resurrection by definition, the spirit and body rejoining as one into an immortal state. Not just coming back alive from the dead, but receiving an immortal body as Jesus obtained after his death.

That is your definition of resurrection, but it is not the only definition of resurrection. All Christians do not have the same definition even though they are all reading the same Scriptures. What does that tell you? It tells me that they all have a different understanding of the Scriptures, so who is to say which one is actually correct?

How do you even imagine that a physical body can be brought back to life after it was decomposed? Why would that even be desirable or necessary to have a physical body to have eternal life?

I believe that the death of man is merely his soul passing from one world into another and when the soul passes from this world into the spiritual world it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements. Since there is nothing physical (e.g., oxygen, water, food) in the spiritual world (heaven) a physical body cannot exist there and is of no use to anyone. I also believe that Jesus is alive in heaven in a spiritual body that is immortal, not alive in a physical body.

Living forever in sin leads to a hellish immortal existence which you may never be free from, which can bring no joy, in many ways is a curse rather than a gift, but it's only brought by one's own disobedience.

I do not know what you mean by “living forever in sin.” Do you mean the original sin inherited from Adam and Eve?

To me, you can't believe in someone, if you don't believe in the sacrifice they made for you. John 20: 25-29. His atonement was part of who Christ was, without it, Christ would have failed as the Savior. We would all have suffered from it. That is what I was meaning when I said believe in his atonement, just as Thomas had to feel the prints in his resurrected body to believe.

I can believe that Jesus made a sacrifice for humanity, as I do, without believing He did that in order to atone from original sin, which is a Church doctrine.

 

[Trailblazer]

Friend. Read Matthew 26 particularly verse 28. The entire episode of the Garden of Gethsemane is riddled with the turmoil that Christ would have to go through for the sins of the world. Compare with Mark 14 23-24. These scriptures are not extensive, but I think this is what you need

I am not saying that Jesus did not go through hell for the sins of the world. The only thing I do not agree with is that there was an original sin committed by Adam and Eve that had to be atoned for.

29: EXPLANATION OF VERSE TWENTY-TWO, CHAPTER FIFTEEN, OF THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And this expulsion from the synagogue is reflected in the growth of antisemitism in the Gospel of John.

It's a complicated time in history. The expulsion didn't win any friends. But it is certainly no excuse for 2000 years of antisemitic pogroms and persecutions. And I would say there were other factors, such as the fact that Romans were confusing the political messianism of Jews with the non-political messianism of Christians. To survive roman persecution, Christians pretty much had to kiss Roman tuchas and villianize the Jews instead. And some of it, quite frankly, was just plain prejudice against non-Hellenized peoples.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Nope, the stiff-necked crowd who kicked their Messiah Jesus Christ to the curb are the apostates.

Spartan, I notice you claim Christianity as your relligion, not Judaism. I don't know and don't care what views you as a Christian consider heretical. I'm just saying that we Jews get to determine what is a heresy in Judaism. It's our religion after all, not yours.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I set you up. So, Israel was never "cut off from the land of the living," and now you admit it. Israel thus cannot possibly be the servant of Isaiah 53. You going to keep beating that dead horse??



Nuts.

What's more, righteousness in both the Tanakh and the New Testament are by faith in God (Genesis 15:6 and Ephesians 2:8-9).

Cut off from the land of the living? It makes a lot more sense to say that the remnant of Jews will suffer death.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Verses 9 and 11, where he's identified as a righteous servant who had done no violence and no deceit was in his mouth.
Cannot possibly be Israel.

That doesn't indicate a sinless state. It just means that these are the righteous remnant.