The avoidability of war

[Estro Felino]

I think there's an ebb and flow of history which has to be recognized, but we also need to learn from our mistakes.

I would suggest a leading factor which contributed to colonialism in the first place was because Europe itself was also under attack from conquerors, such as in Spain, as well as in the last days of the Byzantine Empire when southeastern Europe was open to conquest. I've heard it suggested that if the Ottoman Turks had not raised the tax on pepper, then European colonialism and imperialism never would have happened. Every event has a cause and effect. That doesn't justify the conquests, greed, slavery, racism, capitalism, murder, and other such atrocities associated with colonialism and imperialism, and that has also led to a great deal of resentment against Europe and America.

But when there are atrocities, it's not due to a race, ethnicity, or religion. It's due to a certain malignant mindset which appeals to the baser parts of human nature. That's the basic problem at hand: Human nature. I recall the movie Judgment At Nuremberg in which Spencer Tracy's closing speech makes some interesting points:

If he and the other defendants were all depraved perverts - if the leaders of the Third Reich were sadistic monsters and maniacs - these events would have no more moral significance than an earthquake or other natural catastrophes. But this trial has shown that under the stress of a national crisis, men - even able and extraordinary men - can delude themselves into the commission of crimes and atrocities so vast and heinous as to stagger the imagination. No one who has sat through this trial can ever forget. The sterilization of men because of their political beliefs... The murder of children... How *easily* that can happen! There are those in our country today, too, who speak of the "protection" of the country. Of "survival". The answer to that is: *survival as what*? A country isn't a rock. And it isn't an extension of one's self. *It's what it stands for, when standing for something is the most difficult!* Before the people of the world - let it now be noted in our decision here that this is what *we* stand for: *justice, truth... and the value of a single human being!*

Under the tenets of natural law, what enlightened humans call "atrocities" would have no more moral significance than a pack of wolves feeding on their prey. If we continue to rely on "human nature" to be the basis of civilized society, then it won't ever be that civilized. We have to restrain ourselves and our nature, as well as eschew morally repugnant ideologies which justify themselves through Social Darwinism. And yes, the left needs to clean up their act in that area, too.

I am a very pragmatic and outspoken person.
I believe that they hate Europe because of what our ancestors did with their colonial empires.

 

[Revoltingest]

Wars are supported by incredibly wealthy people who enjoy see countries destroyed, and in ashes.

They just wanna watch the world burn.

 

[Stevicus]

I am a very pragmatic and outspoken person.
I believe that they are trying to destroy us Europeans because of what our ancestors did with their colonial empires.

It's a horrific vendetta mentality.
They want to kill the children of those who mistreated them, even if these children are absolutely guiltless because they weren't even born, back then.

Yes, but just because "they" do it doesn't mean "we" have to do it. I understand what you're saying, though. There's a lot of vindictive, bitter people out there spewing venom and hatred. Sometimes, the line between justice and revenge can get blurred.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes, but just because "they" do it doesn't mean "we" have to do it. I understand what you're saying, though. There's a lot of vindictive, bitter people out there spewing venom and hatred. Sometimes, the line between justice and revenge can get blurred.

You should also understand that we are not all equal.
There are people who would never hurt anybody because their religion forbids them to do such a thing. Since evildoers go to Hell.
There are people who hurt other people because their religion imposes them to do that.

Multiculturalism has lumped us all together.

 

[Father Heathen]

I have always won any debate because I use logic and the dogma "the law is equal for all".
No double standards.

Oh, really? What debates have you won, specifically?

 

[Revoltingest]

There are people who would never hurt anybody because their religion forbids them to do such a thing.

I notice that major religions the preach peace
also preach harm, eg, Christianity, Islam, Judaism.
And we see that they've been used to justify
war, slavery, murder, theft, etc.

 

[Audie]

Oh, I hadn't even thought of that.
A missed opportunity.

Oh. Outsmarted yourself.
Low hanging fruit

 

[Estro Felino]

I notice that major religions the preach peace
also preach harm, eg, Christianity, Islam, Judaism.
And we see that they've been used to justify
war, slavery, murder, theft, etc.

Christianity preaches no harm.

 

[Revoltingest]

Christianity preaches no harm.

It also preaches violence.
Whatever message you want to see,
it's there somewhere in the Bible.

 

[Stevicus]

You should also understand that we are not all equal.
There are people who would never hurt anybody because their religion forbids them to do such a thing. Since evildoers go to Hell.
There are people who hurt other people because their religion imposes them to do that.

Multiculturalism has lumped us all together.

I'm an egalitarian, so I believe in equality, especially in the area of human rights. Those who would hurt other people because of their religion are no different than Klansmen or Nazis. The same would apply to anyone who holds the "vendetta mentality" that you mentioned earlier. As it states in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Article I All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2 Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

https://www.un.org/sites/un2.un.org/files/2021/03/udhr.pdf

Anyone who would violate these rights is guilty of crimes against humanity, regardless of how justified they feel or whether they believe their ancestors were victimized.

As long as everyone follows and respects these precepts, nations and peoples can get along. But they must be enforced consistently and without exception. All of this "rules for thee but not for me" crap has got to end.

Moreover:

Article 23

1. Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

2. Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.

3. Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

4. Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 25 1. Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

2. Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

So, any society which allows homelessness, poverty, unemployment, or exploitive wages would also be guilty of atrocities and violating human rights.

If humanity is unable or unwilling to follow all of these principles in good faith, then concepts of human rights will likely fade away and humanity will revert back to more primitive ideals.

 

[Kfox]

I notice that major religions the preach peace
also preach harm, eg, Christianity, Islam, Judaism.
And we see that they've been used to justify
war, slavery, murder, theft, etc.

I don't think it matters what the religious book says, I think what matters is what the religious person believes it says, or how they interpret what it says. eg. I don't think it is fair to judge all Christians the same, Muslims the same, or Jewish the same based on what their book says because even though each religious follower may read from the same book, each person will interpret that book differently, and follow it differently

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't think it matters what the religious book says, I think what matters is what the religious person believes it says, or how they interpret what it says. eg. I don't think it is fair to judge all Christians the same, Muslims the same, or Jewish the same based on what their book says because even though each religious follower may read from the same book, each person will interpret that book differently, and follow it differently

But when the book advocates wrongful acts,
this makes it easier to believe wrongful things.

 

[Kfox]

But when the book advocates wrongful acts,
this makes it easier to believe wrongful things.

True! This does make it easier for bad people to justify bad things, but when the book also advocates good acts, this makes it easier for good people to justify doing good things. It's more so about the person; rather than the book.

 

[Estro Felino]

But when the book advocates wrongful acts,
this makes it easier to believe wrongful things.

There are religions based upon the Us vs Them mentality.
Which means: no matter what they do, they will go to Heaven. Even if they commit the most hideous sins like murder or genocide.

There are religions where people are not saved by any God. If they commit such sins, they are doomed. Regardless of their beliefs.

 

[osgart]

Why would anyone lump all human nature as the same? The idea that everyone is capable of atrocity isn't one I subscribe to. There are times when malicious people rise up, and then there are times when civil people rise up, there are times when ignorance dominates. It's an endless cycle of humanity. The idea that life is sacred holds civilization together, but when that sacredness is tested, then otherwise civil people will turn to war. The cause of war is the malicious and the ignorant.

Being reasonable you would think that most people would desire civilization and human rights. But power and arrogance will not relent, and that's why freedom is an endless fight of reasonable power vs. arrogant power. Arrogance wants control with superiority over the masses. Reason wants freedom and equality with civil people. The ignorant don't realize or know the harm they can cause, but there are those who can be reached.

So I see three sides in an endless cycle. And there are longstanding powers that represent each side. However these powers don't always represent the whole of a people like it did in Nazi Germany. Sometimes powers topple from within, sometimes unavoidable wars happen.

Even the most civil people have to battle the unknown, and their own blindness, just like everyone else. All I know is that without freedom and human rights life becomes oppression, and oppression becomes worse things. That's why Europe and America are so very, very important because there are freedoms here and there.