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The avoidability of war

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I don't know that leftists embrace "doublestandardism" as much as they've painted themselves into an ideological corner. At one time, leftists seemed more consistent and principled in both their pro-labor economic views and decidedly anti-nationalist, anti-racist positions. They correctly identified that malignant nationalism and racism caused the World Wars and believed that all of humanity would be better off if those ideologies were thrown into the ashcan of history. If they had stayed consistent in that and focused solely on the class struggle and only the class struggle, then their position would have at least been cleaner and more ideologically consistent.

Trouble was, they ostensibly embraced national liberation in the context of oppressed peoples resisting and revolting against their colonial and/or racist oppressors. At the time, it might have seemed politically expedient and relatively benign to do so, but it has been highly problematic. It's led to the ideological trap which many refer to as "identity politics." It's led to contradictory positions which imply that it's okay (or perhaps not quite as bad) to embrace nationalism/racism if it's the context of national liberation and rooting for the underdog against a more powerful oppressor.
Being born in 1985, I have no clue of what Europe was like before WW2.
Sure, the world was made up of colonial empires, and it was a Eurocentric world, and the British Empire was the most dominant.
Our ancestors were the perpetrators and the third world was the victims, because they were victimized by European colonizers and imperialists.

But now, after 80 years or so, Europeans have become the victims.
We are attacked for being European. And for expressing the wish to preserve our national identity.
And all the other people of the world are the perpetrators. Because they would like to impose their culture on us Europeans.

Perpetrators can become victims very easily.

Do you know what makes the European Union so strong? Do you know what makes us so united?
The awareness of being the victims of the outside world.
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Bloodlust and conquest are written into the male human DNA. But we can choose to recognize how self-destructive it is, and decide not to succumb to it.
Exactly.
Meditation. Hobbies. Spiritual guidance.
I guess we have evolved from the warlike stage.
We are more evolved than Homo Sapiens Sapiens.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
No, you don't "sound weird". You sound like an an authoritarian ethno-nationalist espousing an antisemitic conspiracy theory.

Once again, you completely change the subject of discussion to something completely unrelated to what I was saying.

Yet again, you prove you have no good faith and no ability to engage in actual debate.
Jews themselves don't consider themselves as something monolithic.

First of all, I admire and support Netanyahu and his party, so dear sir, you cannot say I am an anti-Semitic because I am not.

Or Roseanne Barr, she's Jewish, I agree with her 100% politically, it's like we were separated at birth.
Besides, I have news for you: American Jews are really similar to Italo-Americans in so many ways.
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Jews themselves don't consider themselves as something monolithic.
Again, you have changed the subject.

Neither of us have said they do.

Stop trying to run from the point.

First of all, I admire and support Netanyahu and his party, so dear sir, you cannot say I am an anti-Semitic because I am not.
First of all, I didn't say you were antisemitic, I said you were espousing an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory.

Secondly, antisemites supporting Netanyahu is actually quite common, because they seen him as an ethno-nationalist who supports their idea that Jewish people should almost exclusively exist in their own state. Several of Natanyahu's closest allies are explicit anti-Semites.

Or Roseanne Barr, she's Jewish, and she sounds like my mother. I agree with her 100% politically, it's like we were separated at birth.
Besides, I have news for you: American Jews are really similar to Italo-Americans in so many ways.
I really don't care about these nonsense statements that have nothing to do with what I have written.

You are not engaging. You stopped several posts ago. Let me know when you have started engaging again.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
But now, after 80 years or so, Europeans have become the victims.
We are attacked for being European. And for expressing the wish to preserve our national identity.
And all the other people of the world are the perpetrators. Because they would like to impose their culture on us Europeans.
This all sounds very vague.

Please explain, in detail, what "the rest of the world" are "perpetrating" upon us Europeans and exactly HOW they are doing it.

See, I suspect it's something along the lines of "they are migrating into European countries while committing the crime of having different DNA to us". Am I warm?


Perpetrators can become victims very easily.

Do you know what makes the European Union so strong? Do you know what makes us so united?
The awareness of being the victims of the outside world. Of billions of people who still hate us and would like to destroy us, by imposing their lifestyle, their culture, their way of thinking, their religions on us.
This delusional, neo-fascist nonsense is repulsive.

No, we don't think that. Overwhelmingly, Europeans reject your ethno-nationalist rhetoric and embrace multiculturalism. Don't you dare put myself or anyone else in Europe into your twisted mindset.

You are wrong.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Honestly I am not interested in a British journalist who probably would like all Europeans to convert to his religion.

I am interested in Netanyahu's judgment only.
Ignore all facts, repeat lies, spread misinformation. Contradict yourself constantly. Ignore actual arguments. Obfuscate. Dog whistle.

Fascist playbook.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
For this reason I think Britain took an excellent decision, by exiting the EU.
Because in the EU there are too many nationalistic drifts, and Britain wouldn't have liked that.
No, wrong again.

Most of Europe rejects your ethno-nationalism and embrace multiculturalism.

I also notice that you failed to answer my question. Is that because my guess is accurate?

You are rapidly becoming not worth trying with any more. You don't respond to argument or facts, and it is increasingly obvious you are just a fascist propagandist.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Wars are supported by incredibly wealthy people who enjoy see countries destroyed, and in ashes.
A fascist, repeating the lies of other fascists.

Estro, you are now on my ignore list. I feel I have sufficiently demonstrated on this forum how manipulative you are, and how unwilling and unable you are to engage in meaningful debate. Because you're not here to debate, you're here to spread propaganda.

While I obviously have no power over anyone else in this forum, I strongly urge anyone else who feels the same as me to block Estro as well. There is no point engaging with her.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Exactly.
Meditation. Hobbies. Spiritual guidance.
I guess we have evolved from the warlike stage.
We are more evolved than Homo Sapiens Sapiens.
Well, I would not say we have evolved past it. Hardly! But our technology has evolved to the point where we can no longer afford to risk wholesale warfare, anymore. But we still skirmish, endlessly. And we can now murder each other with commerce, too. So the dead bodies still pile up. Just fewer big explosions.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Well, I would not say we have evolved past it. Hardly! But our technology has evolved to the point where we can no longer afford to risk wholesale warfare, anymore. But we still skirmish, endlessly. And we can now murder each other with commerce, too.
Indeed. In a globalized world you fight through sanctions...and banking operations.
War is so outdated.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
There's no compromise between an imperialist aggressor and their target. Equating the two essentially enables the former.

But the fact that they speak the same language or nearly, and they are almost the same people strengthens my point "they are cut from the same cloth".
Warlike.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
But the fact that they speak the same language or nearly, and they are almost the same people strengthens my point "they are cut from the same cloth".
Warlike.

I'm not engaging any more of these false equivalences and imperialist apologetics. I have seen you refuse to even acknowledge others' points and instead repeat the same irrelevant things over and over.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Being born in 1985, I have no clue of what Europe was like before WW2.
Sure, the world was made up of colonial empires, and it was a Eurocentric world, and the British Empire was the most dominant.
Our ancestors were the perpetrators and the third world was the victims, because they were victimized by European colonizers and imperialists.

But now, after 80 years or so, Europeans have become the victims.
We are attacked for being European. And for expressing the wish to preserve our national identity.
And all the other people of the world are the perpetrators. Because they would like to impose their culture on us Europeans.

Perpetrators can become victims very easily.

Do you know what makes the European Union so strong? Do you know what makes us so united?
The awareness of being the victims of the outside world. Of billions of people who still hate us and would like to destroy us, by imposing their lifestyle, their culture, their way of thinking, their religions on us.

I think there's an ebb and flow of history which has to be recognized, but we also need to learn from our mistakes.

I would suggest a leading factor which contributed to colonialism in the first place was because Europe itself was also under attack from conquerors, such as in Spain, as well as in the last days of the Byzantine Empire when southeastern Europe was open to conquest. I've heard it suggested that if the Ottoman Turks had not raised the tax on pepper, then European colonialism and imperialism never would have happened. Every event has a cause and effect. That doesn't justify the conquests, greed, slavery, racism, capitalism, murder, and other such atrocities associated with colonialism and imperialism, and that has also led to a great deal of resentment against Europe and America.

But when there are atrocities, it's not due to a race, ethnicity, or religion. It's due to a certain malignant mindset which appeals to the baser parts of human nature. That's the basic problem at hand: Human nature. I recall the movie Judgment At Nuremberg in which Spencer Tracy's closing speech makes some interesting points:

If he and the other defendants were all depraved perverts - if the leaders of the Third Reich were sadistic monsters and maniacs - these events would have no more moral significance than an earthquake or other natural catastrophes. But this trial has shown that under the stress of a national crisis, men - even able and extraordinary men - can delude themselves into the commission of crimes and atrocities so vast and heinous as to stagger the imagination. No one who has sat through this trial can ever forget. The sterilization of men because of their political beliefs... The murder of children... How *easily* that can happen! There are those in our country today, too, who speak of the "protection" of the country. Of "survival". The answer to that is: *survival as what*? A country isn't a rock. And it isn't an extension of one's self. *It's what it stands for, when standing for something is the most difficult!* Before the people of the world - let it now be noted in our decision here that this is what *we* stand for: *justice, truth... and the value of a single human being!*

Under the tenets of natural law, what enlightened humans call "atrocities" would have no more moral significance than a pack of wolves feeding on their prey. If we continue to rely on "human nature" to be the basis of civilized society, then it won't ever be that civilized. We have to restrain ourselves and our nature, as well as eschew morally repugnant ideologies which justify themselves through Social Darwinism. And yes, the left needs to clean up their act in that area, too.
 
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