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The Bahai interpretation of Jesus, the crucifixion, and him in the Qur'an

firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Truthseeker9 said:
I already stated my case and what Shoghi Effendi said, which is the only official Baha'i claim.

Have a good day.
Click to expand...

Nevertheless, I would like to clarify from you.

According to the Bahai theology, was Jesus "crucified" or "not crucified"?

As far as I know, even Abdul Baha teaches that he was crucified for the love of humanity.
 
C

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
firedragon said:
The Bahai's believe that the Quran is Gods revelation. There is no doubt on that. They have different interpretations of some verses, which is of course very well known. This topic is purely a theological discussion based on the text of the Quran and the Bahai "interpretation" of a particular verse in essence.

The verse is 4:157 of the Quran where it says Jesus was not crucified. But the Bahai's claim Jesus was crucified. But they also believe the Quran is Gods word. Thus, it is a strange phenomena where they dont accept one verse in a book they claim is "God's Revelation". If you negate the Quran as a theological book and to not have any historical validity its perfectly fine. But if you claim its Gods revelation, then the verses apply to you. So historicity of the crucifixion is not the question. I am only preemptively saying that to avoid a strawman.

Some of the Bahai's claim that they have a different interpretation of this verse. To be precise, this topic is not about the death of Jesus, whether he was spiritually murdered or physically killed or whatever irrelevant point but precisely how they can interpret "Ma salaboohoo" which means "he was not crucified" as "he was crucified".

Again. The verse says "HE WAS NOT CRUCIFIED.
Bahai's claim "HE WAS CRUCIFIED".

prior to anyone making any side points I will post the verse in question in the Arabic language if anyone wants to translate it to mean the exact opposite.

View attachment 51077

For anyone's information this verse is available in manuscript form in the Sanaa manuscript folio 18.

How do Bahai's translate the sentence "ma salaboohoo" (right there in this image, 3rd line) to mean exactly the opposite of what it simply says. "He was not crucified".

Peace.
Click to expand...

What if Jesus wasn't Christ, but someone else was. Than Jesus could have been crucified, and the other person (Christ) wasn't. That way, Bahai would be completely right.
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Clara Tea said:
What if Jesus wasn't Christ, but someone else was. Than Jesus could have been crucified, and the other person (Christ) wasn't. That way, Bahai would be completely right.
Click to expand...

But the Quran says Jesus is "the Messiah", "Al Masih". So that's not an "if". Hope you understand.
 
Pete in Panama

Pete in Panama

Well-Known Member
CG Didymus said:
... Baha'is need all religions to be one... in spirit. So they make changes where needed to smooth over contradictions...
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That was quite a rant you posted so forgive me for just pulling one idea out. You say Baha'is change things to make religions look like they're in agreement. My interest here is what changes are u talking about. Sure, I can think of changes that are easy to make --for example I remember once hearing a priest talk about all of his churches "traditions" that were not in the Bible but important to him. Sure, I'm guilty as charged for setting aside individual traditions.

Don't get me wrong here, I like traditions but what I'm saying is that different groups having different traditions does not necessarily mean inherent differences between the religions. Was this the kind of thing u meant or was there something else?
 
Colt

Colt

Well-Known Member
firedragon said:
The Bahai's believe that the Quran is Gods revelation. There is no doubt on that. They have different interpretations of some verses, which is of course very well known. This topic is purely a theological discussion based on the text of the Quran and the Bahai "interpretation" of a particular verse in essence.

The verse is 4:157 of the Quran where it says Jesus was not crucified. But the Bahai's claim Jesus was crucified. But they also believe the Quran is Gods word. Thus, it is a strange phenomena where they dont accept one verse in a book they claim is "God's Revelation". If you negate the Quran as a theological book and to not have any historical validity its perfectly fine. But if you claim its Gods revelation, then the verses apply to you. So historicity of the crucifixion is not the question. I am only preemptively saying that to avoid a strawman.

Some of the Bahai's claim that they have a different interpretation of this verse. To be precise, this topic is not about the death of Jesus, whether he was spiritually murdered or physically killed or whatever irrelevant point but precisely how they can interpret "Ma salaboohoo" which means "he was not crucified" as "he was crucified".

Again. The verse says "HE WAS NOT CRUCIFIED.
Bahai's claim "HE WAS CRUCIFIED".

prior to anyone making any side points I will post the verse in question in the Arabic language if anyone wants to translate it to mean the exact opposite.

View attachment 51077

For anyone's information this verse is available in manuscript form in the Sanaa manuscript folio 18.

How do Bahai's translate the sentence "ma salaboohoo" (right there in this image, 3rd line) to mean exactly the opposite of what it simply says. "He was not crucified".

Peace.
Click to expand...
You are correct, the Quran says that Jesus was not executed. The Bahai's claim that he was executed using outrageous intellectual dishonesty like politicians double speaking. According to such a twisted rationalization, killing a person isn't technically murder unless it can be proven that you killed their spirit also.

Is it any wonder that the secular world wants nothing to do with religion when it produces this crap!?
 
Colt

Colt

Well-Known Member
Its been my experience that when cornered Bahai's default to "interpretation".
 
MatthewA

MatthewA

Active Member
cOLTER said:
Its been my experience that when cornered Bahai's default to "interpretation".
Click to expand...

I never heard of Bahai's ever in my life until coming to this website. It seems those who do believe in Bahai', tend to go interpretation methods of looking the scriptures of the bible.

I do not hate anyone or reject anyone who is a partaker in Bahai' custom and beliefs, as a Christian we are to live in peace with all people. (Even though it might be and is difficult though by the spirit is it possible).

My questions would for a Bahai' on Christ Jesus would be this: Is Jesus Christ the only way to get to the Christian God? (John 14:6), Do you believe in heart Jesus Christ was risen again (Romans 4:25) from the dead by the Christian God of the bible? (Romans 10:1-10)

Those would be my only two questions; because those two questions define the objective truth of Christianity of it being about what the Son of God did for the entire world, paying for the worlds sins, past, present, future, and being risen again that anyone who believes may be justified and have peace with God by and through faith, and having an active spiritual relationship with God, by and through faith and communication of prayer, and reading the word of God, becoming renewed in their mind and hearts living by the spirit ; even though we still live in these bodies of flesh.
 
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MatthewA

MatthewA

Active Member
Maybe that states that on their statement of faith but doesn't speak for the individual personal questions. That would be their own choice of what they believe when it really comes to learning about Jesus Christ, rather than what a statement of faith may mean.

People can believe in the name of Jesus but not have him in their heart or on their mind; I personally believe.

I can accept you answer, thank you FD.
 
Dawnofhope

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
firedragon said:
The Bahai's believe that the Quran is Gods revelation. There is no doubt on that. They have different interpretations of some verses, which is of course very well known. This topic is purely a theological discussion based on the text of the Quran and the Bahai "interpretation" of a particular verse in essence.

The verse is 4:157 of the Quran where it says Jesus was not crucified. But the Bahai's claim Jesus was crucified. But they also believe the Quran is Gods word. Thus, it is a strange phenomena where they dont accept one verse in a book they claim is "God's Revelation". If you negate the Quran as a theological book and to not have any historical validity its perfectly fine. But if you claim its Gods revelation, then the verses apply to you. So historicity of the crucifixion is not the question. I am only preemptively saying that to avoid a strawman.

Some of the Bahai's claim that they have a different interpretation of this verse. To be precise, this topic is not about the death of Jesus, whether he was spiritually murdered or physically killed or whatever irrelevant point but precisely how they can interpret "Ma salaboohoo" which means "he was not crucified" as "he was crucified".

Again. The verse says "HE WAS NOT CRUCIFIED.
Bahai's claim "HE WAS CRUCIFIED".

prior to anyone making any side points I will post the verse in question in the Arabic language if anyone wants to translate it to mean the exact opposite.

View attachment 51077

For anyone's information this verse is available in manuscript form in the Sanaa manuscript folio 18.

How do Bahai's translate the sentence "ma salaboohoo" (right there in this image, 3rd line) to mean exactly the opposite of what it simply says. "He was not crucified".

Peace.
Click to expand...

Yusuf Ali’s English translation of the Quranic verse 4:157 reads:

Yusuf Ali: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

The link contains numerous other translations. Based on the English translations its not hard to derive at an interpretation to the effect that they thought they had crucified Christ but in reality they hadn’t as His Spirit clearly lives.

Baha’is believe the Quran to be the Words of God and that Jesus was physically crucified. So there is no inconsistency or contradiction from a Baha’i perspective.
 
Link

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

I would like to further add to the OP, the Quran in context and dialogue about his death and whether he was crucified or not, says, that no one will remain from the people of the book but will believe in him before his death. "his death" to refer to each person of the people of the book, frankly doesn't make sense because it's against the contextual flow of the language. The discussion is about his death before that, so "his death" definitely is talking about Jesus' death.

This means before Jesus dies, there won't be anyone left among people of the book but will believe in him. This refers to the end times when he returns.
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
adrian009 said:
Yusuf Ali’s English translation of the Quranic verse 4:157 reads:

Yusuf Ali: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

The link contains numerous other translations. Based on the English translations its not hard to derive at an interpretation to the effect that they thought they had crucified Christ but in reality they hadn’t as His Spirit clearly lives.

Baha’is believe the Quran to be the Words of God and that Jesus was physically crucified. So there is no inconsistency or contradiction from a Baha’i perspective.
Click to expand...

Even that translation says "but they killed him not, nor crucified him".

Both.
 
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