The Baha'is

[Cherub786]

The fact that many men have made the claim to be the return of Christ does not mean that the claim of Baha’u’llah was false, logically speaking. It is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization to say that because most claimants were false all were false.

Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence—essentially making a hasty conclusion without considering all of the variables.

Faulty generalization - Wikipedia

If you assume, without any evidence (not having researched the claim of Baha’u’llah) that Baha’u’llah was a false prophet you have based your conclusion on “insufficient evidence,” essentially making a hasty conclusion without considering all of the variables.

The prophecy was fulfilled alright, because many false prophets have come into the world. However, obviously I do not believe that Baha'u'llah was one of them.

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe about Baha'u'llah, along with the Christians.
I am a firm believer in free will so I never try to talk people out of their beliefs. I just clarify information and answer questions if people ask.

I agree in the sense that a prophecy warning about the rise of false prophets does not discount the possibility of a true prophet. However, it is interesting that our Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم predicted that nearly thirty false prophets would appear from his Ummah. Mirza Husayn Ali Nuri was born into a Muslim family, and was initially a Muslim, correct?

The reason I believe he was one of those thirty false prophets is because he brought a new religion and a new law, whereas we believe the Religion of Islam is complete, perfect, and its Law is the only valid religious law until Judgment Day. Furthermore, I've read a bit of the Baha'i scripture called Kitab Aqdas, but it does not read as a scripture. It's more like an instruction manual, written in very dry language, while religious scriptures are usually written as hymns (the Psalms and the Quran for example). Therefore, the supposed revelations of "Bahaullah" do not inspire me, and do not indicate to me that they are true revelation from God, on the contrary, they seem to be man made fabrications.

No, I do not believe that the Prince of Peace was referring to Jesus.
I believe that Jesus was 'a Messiah" but He was not 'the Messiah' of the latter days, because Jesus never intended to come back to earth (John 17:4, John 17:11, John 18:36, John 18:37).

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

As I said before, Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace because world peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Baha’u’llah set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

Isaiah 9:6-7 cannot refer to Jesus because Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) and in those verses Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God. Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder when He said to “rend onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21). Jesus disclaimed that He would establish a kingdom where he would rule with judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

According to Jewish understanding, Isaiah 9:6-7 is a prophecy of concerning Hezekiah. If it is a Messianic prophecy, it still doesn't refer to Mirza Husayn Ali Nuri, because the latter was not a descendant of King David.
It's really easy to claim that you are the Messiah and that you sit on the throne of David. But anyone who takes prophecy seriously has to have some kind of sure fire method to determine whether any claim is valid or not. Note, I'm not saying that the prophecy of Isaiah 9 was fulfilled in Jesus either, but it certainly wasn't fulfilled in the founder of your religion.

Next, you claim that "Bahaullah" had a government, when he clearly did not, but that this shall be fulfilled in the future through the institution he founded. That is a very far fetched interpretation of the prophecy. Also, you can't cite a prophecy as proof if you yourself are admitting the prophecy hasn't been fulfilled yet.

 

[Trailblazer]

Specifically, the Baha'i position on homosexuality is clearly against the modern, liberal values of the 21st century, and also its teaching that it is forbidden to elect women to the Universal House of Justice.

Now my point is, why is the Baha'i religion critical of Islam and in the 19th century told us "you're values and laws are contrary to the values of today" and so capitalized on that spirit of modernism and progressiveness, but when the same criticism is leveled against the Baha'i religion, that it is not compatible with the widespread, liberal values of the 21st century, you answer "no religion can break free of the context in which it was born"? Isn't that a double standard?

The liberal values of modern-day society have nothing to do with the Will of God and thus they should have no bearing on the Laws of God. In other words, God does not 'lower' His standards of moral behavior just because humans don't like those standards because they find them inconvenient. or restrictive. I for one and very happy to be a member of a religion with high moral standards, especially where sexual behavior is concerned, because I believe sexual immorality has the potential to do great harm to the individual and to society.

Baha'u'llah's Book of Laws explains why homosexuality is forbidden but this only applies to Baha'is, and even then there are homosexuals in the Baha'i community. It is just something that Baha'is are enjoined to struggle with.

Homosexuality is a complex issue. I would never judge homosexuals for their behavior because I do not believe in judging anyone, as only God can judge.

As for no women on the UHJ, I am a woman and it does not bother me one iota. Adbu'l-Baha told us that in the future it will be made very clear to us why women were disallowed by Baha'u'llah from serving on the UHJ. It is absurd that people say we discriminate against women just because of the UHJ, because women can and do serve in every other capacity.

 

[Trailblazer]

Another example is the Baha'i cosmology.:

Bahá’u’lláh says, “The universe hath neither beginning nor ending.” He has set aside the elaborate theories and exhaustive opinions of scientists and material philosophers by the simple statement, “There is no beginning, no ending.”
Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 218-220

Now of course, the founder of the Baha'i religion made this statement in the 19th century, imagining it to be in accord with the generally held view of science and philosophy of the time. But that was before the Big Bang theory came along and affirmed Islamic cosmology that the universe has a beginning, and that it is not eternal.

A theory is just a theory. Nobody has ever proven that the universe has a beginning have they? I go with what Baha'u'llah wrote because I believe He was infallible. However, if it is in the Qur'an that the universe has a beginning, and that it is not eternal, I would like to see that, as Baha'is consider the Qur'an to be authentic scripture.

Another way in which Baha'i religion is incompatible with the liberal values of the 21st century is that the administration of the organization does not allow individual Baha'is to publish works on the religion without authorization. In essence, they stifle the independence of their members, which is classic cult-like behavior.

I do not know what you are talking about. I have never heard of that. Baha'iTeachings.org is a publication that puts out new articles on the internet daily and it is not authorized by the Baha'i administration.

 

[Cherub786]

The liberal values of modern-day society have nothing to do with the Will of God and thus they should have no bearing on the Laws of God. In other words, God does not 'lower' His standards of moral behavior just because humans don't like those standards because they find them inconvenient. or restrictive.

I think you're missing the point. Why did the Baha'is criticize Islam in the 19th century because the moral teachings and laws of Islam and the Shari'ah were contrary to the prevailing standards and inconvenient and restrictive for that time period, when now the exact same thing is true of their religion today in the 21st century. The answer you are giving now in the 21st century is the same answer Muslims gave to Baha'is in the 19th century. Specifically, the Baha'is criticized the Islamic Shari'ah for the institution of the veil [Hijab or Parda], and strict gender segregation as being incompatible with modern times (modern times of the 19th century).

Baha'u'llah's Book of Laws explains why homosexuality is forbidden but this only applies to Baha'is, and even then there are homosexuals in the Baha'i community. It is just something that Baha'is are enjoined to struggle with.

Homosexuality is a complex issue.

If the founder of your religion declared homosexuality forbidden, why is in an issue to "struggle" with? What's the struggle?

As for no women on the UHJ, I am a woman and it does not bother me one iota. Adbu'l-Baha told us that in the future it will be made very clear to us why women were disallowed by Baha'u'llah from serving on the UHJ. It is absurd that people say we discriminate against women just because of the UHJ, because women can and do serve in every other capacity.

Why didn't "Bahaullah" or Abdul-Baha simply explain the wisdom themselves?

 

[Trailblazer]

The reason I believe he was one of those thirty false prophets is because he brought a new religion and a new law, whereas we believe the Religion of Islam is complete, perfect, and its Law is the only valid religious law until Judgment Day.

Of course you believe that, just as the Christians believe that the Religion of Christianity is complete, perfect, and it is the only valid religion, just as the Jews believe that the Religion of Judaism is complete, perfect, and it is the only valid religion. IMO, Islam is a cut above Judaism and Christianity because at least it recognizes the Prophets that preceded Muhammad.

But to me there is nothing logical about saying that one religion is superior to another and it is the 'only way' because what kind of a loving and just God would exclude millions and millions of people from heaven, salvation, or whatever you want to call it for all of eternity? That is unfathomable to me.

According to Islam,what is supposed to happen after Judgment Day?.

Furthermore, I've read a bit of the Baha'i scripture called Kitab Aqdas, but it does not read as a scripture. It's more like an instruction manual, written in very dry language, while religious scriptures are usually written as hymns (the Psalms and the Quran for example). Therefore, the supposed revelations of "Bahaullah" do not inspire me, and do not indicate to me that they are true revelation from God, on the contrary, they seem to be man made fabrications.

Everyone has their preferences for scripture, but IMO the only thing that should matter is whether Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God or not, not what we "like" or what is inspiring to us, but that is just how I think because I consider it logical. Obviously I am biased, but I cannot think of anything Baha'u'llah wrote as being from anyone but God, and if all I had was His Writings that would be enough to convince me He was a Manifestation of God; but of course there is all the other evidence that indicates that to me, mainly His Person and His Revelation, i.e., the history of His Cause. IMO, the older religions traditions and people's attachment to them is the primary reason more people have not be Baha'is yet.

According to Jewish understanding, Isaiah 9:6-7 is a prophecy of concerning Hezekiah. If it is a Messianic prophecy, it still doesn't refer to Mirza Husayn Ali Nuri, because the latter was not a descendant of King David.
It's really easy to claim that you are the Messiah and that you sit on the throne of David. But anyone who takes prophecy seriously has to have some kind of sure fire method to determine whether any claim is valid or not. Note, I'm not saying that the prophecy of Isaiah 9 was fulfilled in Jesus either, but it certainly wasn't fulfilled in the founder of your religion.

1559. Bahá’u’lláh was a Descendent of Abraham Through Both Katurah and Sarah—Jesse, Son of Sarah, was the Father of David and Ancestor of Bahá’u’lláh

"Regarding your question concerning the Jesse from whom Bahá’u’lláh is descended: The Master says in 'Some Answered Questions', referring to Isaiah, chapter 11, verses 1 to 10, that these verses apply 'Word for word to Bahá’u’lláh'. He then identifies this Jesse as the father of David in the following words: '…for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse the father of David…', thus identifying the Jesse of Isaiah, chapter 11, with being the father of David. Bahá’u’lláh is thus the descendant of Jesse, the father of David.

The Guardian hopes that this will clarify the matter for you. It is a tremendous and fascinating theme, Bahá’u’lláh's connection with the Faith of Judaism, and one which possesses great interest to Jew and Christian alike." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 11, 1942)

12: COMMENTARY ON THE ELEVENTH CHAPTER OF ISAIAH

Genealogy of The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh

Next, you claim that "Bahaullah" had a government, when he clearly did not, but that this shall be fulfilled in the future through the institution he founded. That is a very far fetched interpretation of the prophecy. Also, you can't cite a prophecy as proof if you yourself are admitting the prophecy hasn't been fulfilled yet.

Trying to use Bible prophecies to prove who was the return of Christ and the Messiah is the worst method because prophecies can be interpreted in so many ways. Here is just one example: Jews say that Baha'u'llah cannot be the Messiah because all the messianic age prophecies, such as the establishment of world peace, have not been fulfilled yet, because they believe that the Messiah would fulfill them during his lifetime, but the Jews have never been able to show me one prophecy that says the Messiah would fulfill those prophecies himself during his lifetime, so it is ALL a matter of how they interpret their scriptures, an assumption they made. The same thing applies to Christians, it is ALL in the interpretations they make.

All that said, many of the Bible prophecies for the 'coming' of the Messiah/return of Christ are so specific that they could only apply to Baha'u'llah. The Bible prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think you're missing the point. Why did the Baha'is criticize Islam in the 19th century because the moral teachings and laws of Islam and the Shari'ah were contrary to the prevailing standards and inconvenient and restrictive for that time period, when now the exact same thing is true of their religion today in the 21st century. The answer you are giving now in the 21st century is the same answer Muslims gave to Baha'is in the 19th century. Specifically, the Baha'is criticized the Islamic Shari'ah for the institution of the veil [Hijab or Parda], and strict gender segregation as being incompatible with modern times (modern times of the 19th century).

I do not know who criticized who and I do not care to get into that kind of negative debate.

The Baha'i Laws were written to apply for at least the next 1000 years (from 1852 AD) so actually they are progressive rather than regressive. They seem inconvenient and restrictive for this time period simply because most people have not yet spiritually evolved enough to be able to follow them, as most people still consider sex more important than God, to be rather blunt.

If the founder of your religion declared homosexuality forbidden, why is in an issue to "struggle" with? What's the struggle?

I meant struggle to overcome it.

Why didn't "Bahaullah" or Abdul-Baha simply explain the wisdom themselves?

I guess you mean why wasn't it explained in their Writings. I don't know; all I know is that Adbu'l-Baha promised it would be explained to the Baha'is later.

 

[eik]

What are you going to do about it?

Resist it.

That is what you believe, but beliefs are just beliefs, they can never be proven. Salvation in the Christian sense is irrelevant to me because I do not believe in original sin, so I do not believe there is anything to be saved from. However, I do believe in eternal life (everlasting life), and I believe that is attained by belief in Baha’u’llah.

You must be careful not to focus on non-biblical doctrines as an excuse for rejecting the bible. Original sin as biblically conceived means only acceping that all have sinned because sin is in the world.

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us" I john 1:8.

(Augustine and the Manichaens are irrelevant)

Salavation from sin is a reality in Christ. Even I can see that I no longer commit the sins I used to where I was very ignorant.

“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183

Baha'i is I believe classifiable as "gnosticism" in the traditional Christian sense. It pretends to know things it cannot possibly know, which is what you have demonstrated in all sorts of assertions made about the bible which are untrue, such as "salavation cannot be proven." It certainly can be by sinful lives transformed by faith in Christ.

There was a time in history when eternal life was only through Jesus. During the Dispensation of Jesus Christ, those who believed in Jesus had eternal life, and those who did not believe in Jesus were considered spiritually dead by Jesus.

But time marches on and so does God. According to my beliefs, we are living in the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah, so eternal life is now conferred by believing in Baha’u’llah, so who those who have not recognized Baha’u’llah are spiritually dead, and those who have recognized Baha’u’llah will have everlasting life.

God does not "march on." Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

Jesus is mankind's appointed justification and salvation, as prophesied in the Old Testament.

Of course, it is an absolute requirement for Baha’is to also believe in Jesus and Muhammad, and all the other Manifestations of God.

But the other religions don't reciprocate your "beliefs." Would it be wrong to say that Baha'i is an elitist "religion" for rich liberals that doesn't grasp the essence of God as "truth"? One fundamental truth is that Jesus and Mahomet are irreconciable.

Atheists are not wicked unless they have wicked behavior. Most atheists are atheists because they have rejected Christianity and they do not see any other evidence for God’s existence.

By your standards, there would also be Christian atheists, because there are many Christians who believe in nothing but riches and wealth.

There are no Christian atheists but there are hypocrites who pretend to be Christian, and the same would apply to every religion.

Keep going with your calumny on Muslims, it won’t change reality and it won’t eliminate Islam. Islam is here to stay because it is a religion of God, and no religion of God can ever be eradicated.

Islam is here to stay, just as prostitition is here to stay, because our non-Christian political rulers have made political pacts with the Islam, as also with the devil. As the bible predicted the kingdoms of the world would be given to antichrist. Most of what Islam deems to constitute religion is as I have already stated, borrowed from othe religions more ancient than it.

As the quote says above, “What the Bible shows is rather a succession of teachers—Abraham, Moses and Christ, each measuring His Revelation to the needs and maturity of His authors…”. Abraham and Moses were not self-appointed Prophets anymore than Jesus was.

I agree with your last sentence.

Abraham and Moses were chosen by God, but Christ came down from God.

Baha’u’llah appointed himself.

But Jesus never intended to return and rule on earth, as Christians believe.

Only a select cult of "Christians" (dispensationalists/pre-millennialists) think Christ will return to rule on earth. The rest do not. The bible does not. Christ does not. Nothing in the bible refers to Baha’u’llah.

Muslims understand more than Christians because they have a LATER Revelation from God.

No, the arabs were not converted to Islam from Christianity but from paganism, whereas Christians converted initially from Judaism. So it would be correct to say that Christianity supersedes Judaism, but it would be incorrect to say that Islam supersedes Christianity, because it has nothing to do with Christianity, except borrow from it. Islam was a new religion that superseded arabian paganism only.

Baha’u’llah lived most of His life after He received His Revelation in 1852 until he died in1892, in banishment, exile and imprisonment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baháʼu'lláh

The final years of Baháʼu'lláh's life (1879–1892) were spent in the Mansion of Bahjí, just outside Acre, even though he was still formally a prisoner of the Ottoman Empire

Spent in a mansion? You call that persecution? He was doubtless held in regard by muslims on account of his corruption of Christianity.

Our mental asylums commonly house people thinking that they are Jesus Christ or some superior prophet. Mani also was imprisoned and executed. Now his religion is ignored, except as a heresy within Christianty. In other words exile and imprisonment alone do not bestow credibility.

How do you believe God takes care of the world? I do not see God doing anything anywhere.

That's because you're not looking. The rich westerners have been deprived of faith which has been given to those more deserving. Christianity is growing hugely in Asia, Africa etc.

Baha’u’llah did not presume to emulate Christ. Baha’u’llah did not need to be saved because He was a Manifestation of God so He was sinless, just like Moses, Muhammad and Jesus.

In Christian terms, Baha’u’llah is a true antichrist.

Anyone can use the Bible to try to prove their beliefs are true. If you look on the internet you will notice that it is only the Christians criticize and even attack Baha’is, and not the Baha’is who criticize and attack Christians .
.

Baha'i is an antichrist religion in Christian terms, even a cult, like Islam. From the first Christianity has been about suppressing cults of every conceivable description, often gnostic, often liberal, and set up by self-appointed teachers. Baha'i is no different from any other, really. It is inherently gnostic and extremely opposed to christianity. It's very existence is an attack on Christianity, just as much as Islam. In that it is no different.

 

[Trailblazer]

Resist it.

Why do you think you have to resist it? No Muslims are coming after you.

You must be careful not to focus on non-biblical doctrines as an excuse for rejecting the bible. Original sin as biblically conceived means only accepting that all have sinned because sin is in the world.

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us" I john 1:8.

(Augustine and the Manichaens are irrelevant)

I never said that we have no sin, I was only saying that we do not have it because Adam and Even ate a piece of fruit. Of course I believe we have sin because Baha’u’llah wrote that the purpose of God was to sacrifice Christ as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth.

Baha’u’llah also implied that we do have sin and said that Christ sacrificed Himself and sanctified the soul of the sinner:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things...... Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

Salvation from sin is a reality in Christ. Even I can see that I no longer commit the sins I used to where I was very ignorant.

The same is true for me and Baha’u’llah; I have been saved from sin by His Writings and by God’s grace.

Regarding the perversity of mankind, Baha’u’llah wrote:
“No man can ever claim to have comprehended the nature of the hidden and manifold grace of God; none can fathom His all-embracing mercy. Such hath been the perversity of men and their transgressions, so grievous have been the trials that have afflicted the Prophets of God and their chosen ones, that all mankind deserveth to be tormented and to perish.” Gleanings, p. 76

Addressing God, Baha’u’llah wrote:
“May my inmost being be offered up for the sins of them that have sinned against Thee, for it is as a result of such sins that the Day Star of Thy manifold favors revealeth itself above the horizon of Thy bounty, and the clouds of Thy never-failing providence rain down their gifts upon the realities of all created things.” Gleanings, pp. 310-311

Baha'i is I believe classifiable as "gnosticism" in the traditional Christian sense. It pretends to know things it cannot possibly know, which is what you have demonstrated in all sorts of assertions made about the bible which are untrue, such as "salvation cannot be proven." It certainly can be by sinful lives transformed by faith in Christ.

I never said that salvation cannot be proven; if anything I said that nobody can know if they are saved or not because only God knows that. I never questioned anyone who said that their sinful lives were transformed by faith in Christ. I am sure many lives have been transformed.

God does not "march on." Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

Jesus is mankind's appointed justification and salvation, as prophesied in the Old Testament.

Jesus is the same but God has sent more Prophets since Jesus. Even if Jesus was mankind's appointed justification and salvation, that does not mean that is all humanity will ever need. Humans have needs over and above being saved. Humans have to live in this world before they die.

But the other religions don't reciprocate your "beliefs." Would it be wrong to say that Baha'i is an elitist "religion" for rich liberals that doesn't grasp the essence of God as "truth"? One fundamental truth is that Jesus and Mahomet are irreconciable.

Why would it matter if other religions reciprocate my beliefs? Does it matter to you that other religions do not reciprocate Christian beliefs? Would it be wrong to say that Christianity is an elitist "religion" for people who believe that only they can grasp the truth about God?

Jesus and Muhammad are only irreconcilable to Christians; they are not irreconcilable to Muslims. What does that tell you? It tells me that one of those religions has to be wrong in its teachings, but that does not mean either of their scriptures are wrong.

Islam is here to stay, just as prostitution is here to stay, because our non-Christian political rulers have made political pacts with the Islam, as also with the devil. As the bible predicted the kingdoms of the world would be given to antichrist. Most of what Islam deems to constitute religion is as I have already stated, borrowed from other religions more ancient than it.

Islam did not borrow anything, it simply reiterated some of the Bible teachings, but it added a lot of revelation from Muhammad that was not in the Bible.

I agree with your last sentence.

Abraham and Moses were chosen by God, but Christ came down from God.

Baha’u’llah appointed himself.

I believe that Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah all came down from God, because in the sense that they were all chosen by God they all came from the heaven of the Will of God. As Manifestations of God, their souls were al preexistent in the spiritual world and sent by God to be born into bodies in this world.

Baha’u’llah did not appoint Himself, not anymore than Jesus appointed Himself. You are free to believe anything you want but beliefs are just beliefs because they can never be proven.

Only a select cult of "Christians" (dispensationalists/pre-millennialists) think Christ will return to rule on earth. The rest do not. The bible does not. Christ does not. Nothing in the bible refers to Baha’u’llah.

Almost all Christians I have ever met believe that Christ will return to rule on earth. What do the rest believe? Some of them believe that Christ will rule from heaven, but all Christians I have ever met except a few liberals believe Christ will return in some sense. No, the Bible does not support that belief but they ignore verses they cannot explain. All the prophecies about the return of Christ refer to Baha’u’llah, since it was never Jesus Christ who was slated to return, it was another man with another name.

No, the arabs were not converted to Islam from Christianity but from paganism, whereas Christians converted initially from Judaism. So it would be correct to say that Christianity supersedes Judaism, but it would be incorrect to say that Islam supersedes Christianity, because it has nothing to do with Christianity, except borrow from it. Islam was a new religion that superseded arabian paganism only.

Islam has to do with Muhammad, who was an independent Manifestation of God, so it had no need to borrow anything from Christianity. Islam supersedes Christianity because it was based upon a divine Revelation from God that came after Christianity.

Spent in a mansion? You call that persecution? He was doubtless held in regard by muslims on account of his corruption of Christianity.

Our mental asylums commonly house people thinking that they are Jesus Christ or some superior prophet. Mani also was imprisoned and executed. Now his religion is ignored, except as a heresy within Christianity. In other words exile and imprisonment alone do not bestow credibility.

Details matter. That mansion was only procured by His son because it was abandoned owing to pestilence so nobody would buy it.

Baha’u’llah was never held in any regard by Muslims other than as a false prophet and usurper. After all, it was the Muslims who persecuted Baha’u’llah and threw Him in prison and exile and banished Him from place to place. Although they rejected Baha’u’llah Christians did not persecute Him because He was not one of them. Just as the Jews persecuted Jesus who had been one of them and broke away from traditional Judaism, the Muslims persecuted Baha’u’llah who had been one of them and broke away from traditional Islam.

That's because you're not looking. The rich westerners have been deprived of faith which has been given to those more deserving. Christianity is growing hugely in Asia, Africa etc.

I agree that those who will put wealth above God will be deprived of faith.

In Christian terms, Baha’u’llah is a true antichrist.

I know what Christians believe, but in terms of the Bible, Baha’u’llah could not be an antichrist, which just goes to show that the Christians don’t know the Bible verses that address what the antichrist does. Baha’u’llah did just the opposite. I have all that written up in a Word document and I will put it in a separate post following this post.

Baha'i is an antichrist religion in Christian terms, even a cult, like Islam. From the first Christianity has been about suppressing cults of every conceivable description, often gnostic, often liberal, and set up by self-appointed teachers. Baha'i is no different from any other, really. It is inherently gnostic and extremely opposed to christianity. It's very existence is an attack on Christianity, just as much as Islam. In that it is no different.

Islam and Baha’i are not opposed to Jesus or the Bible but we are opposed to Christianity because we believe that traditional Christianity is not what Jesus ever taught. Christians are opposed to Islam and Christianity for one simple reason, because we claim to supersede Christianity and knock it off its pedestal.

Muhammad and Baha’u’llah were no more self-appointed than was Jesus. Jesus was not special just because he came before them. Jesus had a special mission but that did not make Him better than the other Manifestations of God.

“Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60

 

[Trailblazer]

In Christian terms, Baha’u’llah is a true antichrist.

Baha’u’llah cannot be the Anti-Christ because..........

The Bible says that the Anti-Christ:

1. Denies that Jesus is the Christ. ** Baha'u'llah affirms that Jesus is the Christ.

1 John Chapter 2
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

2. Denies the Father and the Son. ** Baha'u'llah affirms the Father and the Son.

1 John Chapter 2
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

3. Denies that Jesus came in the flesh and cleansed us of sin. ** Baha'u'llah affirms that Jesus came in the flesh and cleansed us of sin.

1 John Chapter 4
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
** Baha'u'llah confessed that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
** Baha'u'llah was not already in the world when John was written.

1 John Chapter 1
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
** Baha'u'llah wrote that Jesus cleansed us of sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
** Baha'u'llah acknowledged that we have sin.

4. Is equated with deceivers and linked with false prophets.

1 John Chapter 4
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
** Baha'u'llah is not linked to any false prophets because He had good fruits (Matthew 7:16-20).

5. Is already in the world during the writing of the epistles of John (100 AD)

1 John Chapter 4
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
** Baha'u'llah was not already in the world when John was written.

6. Is a former Christian.

1 John Chapter 2
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
** Baha'u'llah was not a former Christian. He was a former Muslim.

Please note: I have proof to back up everything I claimed about Baha'u'llah.

 

[CG Didymus]

Nothing She was not able to get a group together for me. The guy here who said he would attend if he had time was on a different time zone could not go and she said unless I could bring a friend we could not have a big enough group to do it. So we had to forget about it..

Well that's too bad. What have you learned on your own and from this thread?

 

[Riders]

Not a lot. I am currently getting in touch with Kalachandji's Hare Krishna Temple to see if they have some classes online I can take and I also may check into the Buddha classes too.But will be doing stuff online by myself, I did attend KIRTAN service on facebook at The Hare Krishnas today.

 

[eik]

Baha’u’llah cannot be the Anti-Christ because..........

The Bible says that the Anti-Christ:

1. Denies that Jesus is the Christ. ** Baha'u'llah affirms that Jesus is the Christ.

You affirmed that Baha'u'llah has superseded Jesus as the Christ.

You said "According to my beliefs, we are living in the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah, so eternal life is now conferred by believing in Baha’u’llah, so who those who have not recognized Baha’u’llah are spiritually dead, and those who have recognized Baha’u’llah will have everlasting life."


1 John Chapter 2
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Apply it to yourself. You believe that NOW Baha'u'llah is the Christ.

** Baha'u'llah was not a former Christian. He was a former Muslim.
Please note: I have proof to back up everything I claimed about Baha'u'llah.

Irrelevant. Baha'u'llah is no part of any recognized Christian church. John was merely recounting the situation in his own day when the unbelievers went out from Christianity. Islam itself went out from Christianity, as it obviously originated in Christianity, judging by what it borrowed from Christianity (heaven & hell etc). Baha'u'llah is a primary candidate for the type of the man of sin, along with Mahomet and many others. The same opposition to Christ & self-exaltation over Christ applies to all these self-appointed "prophets:"

2 Thess 2:1-4 "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

 

[Trailblazer]

You affirmed that Baha'u'llah has superseded Jesus as the Christ.

You said "According to my beliefs, we are living in the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah, so eternal life is now conferred by believing in Baha’u’llah, so who those who have not recognized Baha’u’llah are spiritually dead, and those who have recognized Baha’u’llah will have everlasting life."

I did not say that Baha'u'llah has superseded Jesus as the Christ; I said that the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah has superseded the Dispensation of Jesus Christ. A Manifestation of God can never be superseded, only His Dispensation can be superseded.

I said that Baha'u'llah was the return of the Christ Spirit. so he was the return of the spirit of Christ in another human body.

1 John Chapter 2
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Apply it to yourself. You believe that NOW Baha'u'llah is the Christ.

No, that is NOT what I believe. I believe that Jesus was the Christ, and Baha'u'llah was the return of the Christ Spirit.

Trailblazer said: ↑
** Baha'u'llah was not a former Christian. He was a former Muslim.
Please note: I have proof to back up everything I claimed about Baha'u'llah.

Irrelevant. Baha'u'llah is no part of any recognized Christian church. John was merely recounting the situation in his own day when the unbelievers went out from Christianity. Islam itself went out from Christianity, as it obviously originated in Christianity, judging by what it borrowed from Christianity (heaven & hell etc). Baha'u'llah is a primary candidate for the type of the man of sin, along with Mahomet and many others. The same opposition to Christ & self-exaltation over Christ applies to all these self-appointed "prophets:"

Islam did not arise out of Christianity, it arose from a revelation from God to Muhammad through the Angel Gabriel. Neither Muhammad nor Baha'u'llah were self-appointed Prophets -- they were both appointed by God, just like Jesus Christ was appointed by God.

As I clearly demonstrated, Baha'u'llah was not the antichrist according to ANY of the verses in the Bible that SAY what the antichrist would do. The antichrist would oppose Christ. Baha'u'llah did not oppose Christ, He testified of Christ and glorified Christ. Referring to Jesus Christ as the Son of Man, Baha'u'llah wrote:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, page the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

 

[eik]

I did not say that Baha'u'llah has superseded Jesus as the Christ; I said that the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah has superseded the Dispensation of Jesus Christ. A Manifestation of God can never be superseded, only His Dispensation can be superseded.

Same thing. Whether you make Christ out to be redundant or a liar is the same thing when Christ said: Matt 24:35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away."

Christ precluded himself being made redundany by Baha'u'llah. This is the point you're missing.

I said that Baha'u'llah was the return of the Christ Spirit. so he was the return of the spirit of Christ in another human body.

That is rather disparaging of Christians to whom Christ promised the Holy Spirit to. You're effectively saying that they don't have the spirit of Christ, but Baha'u'llah does. (There is no theological difference between the Paraclete and the Holy Spirit). In which case they must have an evil spirit if they say that they have it. But that is blasphemy by Christ himself, who said that confounding the Holy Spirit with evil spirits is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit:

Matt 12:31 "So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven--except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven."

In other words seeking to attribute the Holy Spirit to just one person is never a good idea and has serious unanticipated ramifications in Christian theology.

Numerous persons have misrepresentated themselves as "the Paraclete" throughout history. Simon Magus, Marcion, Montanus, Mani - all crackpots. It was alleged of Mahomet in Ibn Ishaq's Kitab al-Maghazi in the second half of the 8th century. Do you not see a pattern here (besides their names all beginning with M)?

No, that is NOT what I believe. I believe that Jesus was the Christ, and Baha'u'llah was the return of the Christ Spirit.

Well then you don't logically believe Baha'u'llah was any different from a Christian becaue Christ promised the paraclete to every Christian:

John 15:26 "When the Advocate (Paraclete) comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father, he will testify on my behalf."

So Baha'u'llah's claims to uniqueness are tendentious as to biblical theology, disparaging of the church, and pretty ridiculous as grounds for why anyone should believe in him.

Islam did not arise out of Christianity, it arose from a revelation from God to Muhammad through the Angel Gabriel. Neither Muhammad nor Baha'u'llah were self-appointed Prophets -- they were both appointed by God, just like Jesus Christ was appointed by God.

They were appointed by God in the sense that it is appointed to everyone to seek God. Just because they sought God doesn't mean to say that God revealed himself to either in the same way that he revealed himself to Christ. In any event much of what is now claimed for Mahomet is clearly borrowed from Christian / Syriac texts, albeit mistranslated. Mahomet's revelation was pretty average and no different from anyone else. It was just that it had political consequences given where it was situate amonst numerous pagan arabs willing to wage war against their militarily weak neighbours.

Anyone can rebuke sinners because sin is sinful, and the pagan arabs were steeped in sin. It doesn't mean to say you have a divine mandate to set yourself up in the temple of God pretending to be "the one."

As I clearly demonstrated, Baha'u'llah was not the antichrist according to ANY of the verses in the Bible that SAY what the antichrist would do. The antichrist would oppose Christ. Baha'u'llah did not oppose Christ, He testified of Christ and glorified Christ. Referring to Jesus Christ as the Son of Man, Baha'u'llah wrote:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, page the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

Ok. But why then has the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah superseded the Dispensation of Jesus Christ? You don't appear to have a plausible reason, and his claim to be the "paraclete" smacks only of chicanery.

 

[Trailblazer]

Same thing. Whether you make Christ out to be redundant or a liar is the same thing when Christ said: Matt 24:35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away."

Christ precluded himself being made redundany by Baha'u'llah. This is the point you're missing.

Jesus never said that His Dispensation would never pass away; He said His Words would never pass away. The Words of Jesus will never pass away because they are part of the eternal religion of God that is revealed in new chapters every age. The older chapters are still a necessary part of the Book.

That is rather disparaging of Christians to whom Christ promised the Holy Spirit to. You're effectively saying that they don't have the spirit of Christ, but Baha'u'llah does.

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that Baha’u’llah brought the Christ Spirit and shed it upon all of humanity, He renewed the Christ Spirit.

The Christians to whom Christ promised the Holy Spirit are not the Christians of today, according to the NT. It was the disciples who Jesus was talking to when he promised the Holy Spirit.

Then before Jesus departed out of His mortal frame, He promised to send the Holy Spirit again in the future:

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

(There is no theological difference between the Paraclete and the Holy Spirit). In which case they must have an evil spirit if they say that they have it. But that is blasphemy by Christ himself, who said that confounding the Holy Spirit with evil spirits is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit:

Matt 12:31 "So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven--except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven."

I do not believe that is what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit means.

The Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit. According to Baha’i beliefs, the Holy Spirit is the light of God. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is detestation of the light of God, the divine perfections. In a sense then it is detestation of God since one hates the divine perfections (God’s qualities).

Jesus and the other Messengers of God were like lamps that brought the Holy Spirit; they brought the light of God to humanity because they reflected God’s attributes. It is forgivable to hate the lamp, because one might not recognize that the lamp is from God because they might not see the divine perfections of God in the lamp.

Matthew 12:31-32 “So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”

In those verses Jesus said it is unforgivable to hate the Holy Spirit (light of God) and one will not be forgiven in this life or in the afterlife.

I can only surmise why that is unforgivable. It is a Baha’i belief that heaven and hell are states of the soul, not geographical locations. Heaven is nearness to God and hell is distance from God. It is impossible to come near to God if one is repelled by the light of God because God does not force His love upon anyone. God only draws those near to Him those who reach out for His mercy. If one hates God they will not reach out for God’s mercy and they will thus be distant from God; in such a state they will make their own hell. Maybe that correlates with the unforgivable sin.

In other words seeking to attribute the Holy Spirit to just one person is never a good idea and has serious unanticipated ramifications in Christian theology.

Numerous persons have misrepresentated themselves as "the Paraclete" throughout history. Simon Magus, Marcion, Montanus, Mani - all crackpots. It was alleged of Mahomet in Ibn Ishaq's Kitab al-Maghazi in the second half of the 8th century. Do you not see a pattern here (besides their names all beginning with M)?

I never said that the Holy Spirit is attributed to just one person. The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God, so it cannot be confined to just one person or to just one occurrence. God can send the Holy Spirit whenever he chooses to.

25: THE HOLY SPIRIT

Well then you don't logically believe Baha'u'llah was any different from a Christian because Christ promised the paraclete to every Christian:

John 15:26 "When the Advocate (Paraclete) comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father, he will testify on my behalf."

So Baha'u'llah's claims to uniqueness are tendentious as to biblical theology, disparaging of the church, and pretty ridiculous as grounds for why anyone should believe in him.

Baha’u’llah was no more unique than any other Manifestation of God; all of them were unique.

I do not believe that John 15:26 is Christ promising the Holy Spirit to every Christian. Christians interpreted the verse that way but I believe it was misinterpreted, and as a result Christians have been forever barred from recognizing that Baha’u’llah who was the Advocate that Jesus promised to send (as noted above).

“the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father, he will testify on my behalf”

Baha’u’llah, who was the Spirit of truth, did exactly what Jesus had promised He would do, He testified of Jesus. Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah wrote:

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

How would the Holy Spirit living inside of Christians testify of Jesus? That is impossible, yet Christians have had to believe that because they never understood what this verse refers to.

They were appointed by God in the sense that it is appointed to everyone to seek God. Just because they sought God doesn't mean to say that God revealed himself to either in the same way that he revealed himself to Christ.

That is your understanding and belief. My understanding and belief is that God revealed Himself to Muhammad and Baha’u’llah in the same way that God revealed Himself to Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit.

Your belief is no more valid than my belief. Both are beliefs because they cannot be proven to be facts.

In any event much of what is now claimed for Mahomet is clearly borrowed from Christian / Syriac texts, albeit mistranslated. Mahomet's revelation was pretty average and no different from anyone else. It was just that it had political consequences given where it was situate amonst numerous pagan arabs willing to wage war against their militarily weak neighbours.

Believe whatever you want to believe, it is just a personal opinion. I consider the Qur’an equivalent to the New Testament and it is more authentic.

Anyone can rebuke sinners because sin is sinful, and the pagan arabs were steeped in sin. It doesn't mean to say you have a divine mandate to set yourself up in the temple of God pretending to be "the one."

The same exact thing applies to Jesus because He had no more of a divine mandate than did Muhammad, or Baha’u’llah for that matter. All of them rebuked sinners at the direction of God because all of them were Manifestations of God..

Ok. But why then has the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah superseded the Dispensation of Jesus Christ? You don't appear to have a plausible reason, and his claim to be the "paraclete" smacks only of chicanery.

It really is quite simple. Every time God sends a new Messenger (Manifestation), His Revelation supersedes all the Revelations that have come before it. A Dispensation is the divine ordering of the affairs of the world, and that can be only according to one Manifestation at a time. Once a Manifestation of God has completed His Mission on earth and revealed scriptures, what He revealed is pertinent only until the next Manifestation of God appears; and then He completes His Mission and His scriptures are pertinent until the next Manifestation of God appears.

Once the Mission is completed, it is completed, as Jesus said:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Once the Mission has been completed and a religion has fulfilled its purpose for humanity, God sends a new Manifestation, and religion is renewed in order to suit the circumstances of the present age.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

The new Manifestation always brings the new remedy that is needed for then age in which He appears.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” Gleanings, p. 213

 

[CG Didymus]

According to Jewish understanding, Isaiah 9:6-7 is a prophecy of concerning Hezekiah. If it is a Messianic prophecy, it still doesn't refer to Mirza Husayn Ali Nuri, because the latter was not a descendant of King David.

Strange that someone kept the genealogical records from Abraham to Mirza Husayn Ali Nuri. So does that mean all those people in the Bible are real and the things said about them are historically accurate? I doubt that Baha'is would believe that.

Then what about the genealogical records leading up to Abraham? Adam and Eve? The first and only man and woman on Earth? Then Noah? He and his family the only people left alive after the flood? Then on to Abraham? I've never heard a Baha'i support the accuracy of the lives of these people, especially their ages of hundreds of years old. Yet, they can say their prophet can claim the throne of David because he descended from Abraham? Why don't do as they so often do and just say it is "symbolic"?

 

[CG Didymus]

Same thing. Whether you make Christ out to be redundant or a liar is the same thing when Christ said: Matt 24:35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away."

Christ precluded himself being made redundany by Baha'u'llah. This is the point you're missing.


That is rather disparaging of Christians to whom Christ promised the Holy Spirit to. You're effectively saying that they don't have the spirit of Christ, but Baha'u'llah does. (There is no theological difference between the Paraclete and the Holy Spirit). In which case they must have an evil spirit if they say that they have it. But that is blasphemy by Christ himself, who said that confounding the Holy Spirit with evil spirits is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit:

Matt 12:31 "So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven--except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven."

In other words seeking to attribute the Holy Spirit to just one person is never a good idea and has serious unanticipated ramifications in Christian theology.

Numerous persons have misrepresentated themselves as "the Paraclete" throughout history. Simon Magus, Marcion, Montanus, Mani - all crackpots. It was alleged of Mahomet in Ibn Ishaq's Kitab al-Maghazi in the second half of the 8th century. Do you not see a pattern here (besides their names all beginning with M)?


Well then you don't logically believe Baha'u'llah was any different from a Christian becaue Christ promised the paraclete to every Christian:

John 15:26 "When the Advocate (Paraclete) comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father, he will testify on my behalf."

So Baha'u'llah's claims to uniqueness are tendentious as to biblical theology, disparaging of the church, and pretty ridiculous as grounds for why anyone should believe in him.



They were appointed by God in the sense that it is appointed to everyone to seek God. Just because they sought God doesn't mean to say that God revealed himself to either in the same way that he revealed himself to Christ. In any event much of what is now claimed for Mahomet is clearly borrowed from Christian / Syriac texts, albeit mistranslated. Mahomet's revelation was pretty average and no different from anyone else. It was just that it had political consequences given where it was situate amonst numerous pagan arabs willing to wage war against their militarily weak neighbours.

Anyone can rebuke sinners because sin is sinful, and the pagan arabs were steeped in sin. It doesn't mean to say you have a divine mandate to set yourself up in the temple of God pretending to be "the one."


Ok. But why then has the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah superseded the Dispensation of Jesus Christ? You don't appear to have a plausible reason, and his claim to be the "paraclete" smacks only of chicanery.

I wonder, what was the "dispensation" of Jesus? What is it that he brought to the world? The Christian answer is a lot different than the Baha'i answer.

For them, each "manifestation" brings new "social" laws. These laws are supposed to take civilization to a new level. What were those laws that Jesus brought?

For most Christians, the importance of Jesus was his saving grace. He showed he conquered Satan and death by rising from the dead. Saving people from being condemned to hell, because they could not pay the penalty themselves or ever be good enough to deserve heaven on their own merit. When does that teaching or "dispensation" run out? Never.

But Baha'is don't support any of those beliefs. People are judged on their own merit. There is no Satan or a hell like the one believed in by Christians. All people move on into a spiritual world where they continue to learn and grow closer to God. All of the great prophet/founders were sent by the one true God. Their beliefs are totally different. They contradict Christian beliefs. The problem with them is then they try to justify their beliefs by making Jesus and "true" Christian beliefs fit their beliefs.

By doing that, I think, they are not supporting a "dispensation" of Jesus and his teachings, they are saying those things taught by the early Church and most all Christians has always been wrong. My problem with that is that they are not promoting the "oneness" of religion and the "oneness" of God, but that all other religions have gotten it wrong. They all lost or misinterpreted the original message and now, Baha'u'llah, has brought the true teachings of God and the true interpretation of the teachings Jesus and all the other messengers.

So they don't really believe all that much about the other religions. They, not only have been superseded by a new dispensation, but they all have false beliefs and superstitions mixed in with the things they teach... Making the Baha'i Faith the only religion that has the true message from God. They "believe" in Jesus, but they don't believe in your interpretation of who and what Jesus is or taught. Which is fine... They are a different religion. But are they the truth? Are they going to bring peace and harmony to the world? I don't see how when most all of them can't and don't bring peace and harmony to the discussions here on the forum. They are essentially saying, "we're right and you're wrong." So what else is new?

 

[Riders]

Thank you Riders. I looked it up and I am 15hrs in front of your time, so I will be at work and out bush, so can not make it.

Thank you for the invite.

Regards Tony

Your profile says you don't have a profile that is available so I won't IM you. The group wants me to do a study tonight and asked me to ask you if you can come tonight. its at 7 central standard time so I figure you'll say no.But I told them I would invite ou.

If anyone else wants to do it let me know but no negative folks please. Its a Zoom study.

 

[CG Didymus]

You affirmed that Baha'u'llah has superseded Jesus as the Christ.

You said "According to my beliefs, we are living in the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah, so eternal life is now conferred by believing in Baha’u’llah, so who those who have not recognized Baha’u’llah are spiritually dead, and those who have recognized Baha’u’llah will have everlasting life."

"No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183​

Baha'is are all over the place with what they say they believe. By this quote you would think that the "only" way to gain eternal life is to become a Baha'i. Other times they say that all good/spiritual people are in good standing with God. But, as we all know, they all believe very different things about God, and some don't believe in any God, and some believe in multiple Gods. From what they have seemed to say is that all the souls of all people live on and go into the many spiritual worlds of God, or something like that. The better a person is in this world, the better and closer to God they are in the next world. There is no hell for evil people. They, I guess, are just very, very far from God in the next world. But all we'd have to do is add a little fire and torment and we'd have the Christian hell. Except, I think Baha'i even have it to where these evil people's souls can move on and eventually get closer to God.

Anyway, it is obvious, I'm sure, that you can see that they do reject most all doctrines of Christianity and any of the other religions too. While, at the same time, they say all the religions are one and from the same God. For them, ultimately, whatever the other religions believed to be true can be explained away as being "symbolic", misinterpreted, or traditions of men being added in. And then, on top of that, anything that might have been true and real is discounted because that particular dispensation of that manifestation has ended. Some Baha'is here have said that the dispensation of Jesus ended with Muhammad. So, supposedly, the "social" laws brought by Muhammad in the Quran superseded any "social" laws that Jesus brought. Now Muhammad's laws have been replaced by The Bab and then by Baha'u'llah. Salvation, saved by grace, etc. as believed by Christians is meaningless to them.

 

[eik]

Jesus never said that His Dispensation would never pass away; He said His Words would never pass away. The Words of Jesus will never pass away because they are part of the eternal religion of God that is revealed in new chapters every age. The older chapters are still a necessary part of the Book.

Sorry, the fact is that you are causing Jesus' words to pass away by depriving them of any validity.

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that Baha’u’llah brought the Christ Spirit and shed it upon all of humanity, He renewed the Christ Spirit.

As per Mani (the persian and antitype of Baha’u’llah). This is what Eusebius had to say of Mani:

— In the mean time, also, that madman Manes, (Mani is of Persian or Semitic origin) as he was called, well agreeing with his name, for his demoniacal heresy, armed himself by the perversion of his reason, and at the instruction of Satan, to the destruction of many. He was a barbarian in his life, both in speech and conduct, but in his nature as one possessed and insane. Accordingly, he attempted to form himself into a Christ, and then also proclaimed himself to be the very paraclete and the Holy Spirit, and with all this was greatly puffed up with his madness. Then, as if he were Christ, he selected twelve disciples, the partners of his new religion, and after patching together false and ungodly doctrines, collected from a thousand heresies long since extinct, he swept them off like a deadly poison, from Persia, upon this part of the world. Hence the impious name of the Manichaeans spreading among many, even to the present day. Such then was the occasion of this knowledge, as it was falsely called, that sprouted up in these times.

Do you not see that the spirit of Baha’u’llah is the spirit of every false prophet who usurps the place of the true prophets of God?

The Christians to whom Christ promised the Holy Spirit are not the Christians of today, according to the NT. It was the disciples who Jesus was talking to when he promised the Holy Spirit.

Thank's very much. Actually Jesus did implicitly promise exactly the same to those who would believe later on, for he said: "blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." John 20:29.

Then before Jesus departed out of His mortal frame, He promised to send the Holy Spirit again in the future:

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

This is what was prophesied by Joel as repeated by Peter in Acts 2:17

"And it will be in the last days, says God, that I will pour out My Spirit on all humanity; then your sons and your daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams. I will even pour out My Spirit on My male and female slaves in those days, and they will prophesy."

It is clear that your attempts to arbitrarily limit the spread of the Holy Spirit just so that you can promote Baha’u’llah are doomed.

BTW: "another comforter" in John 14:16 means another comforter besides himself (Jesus).

I do not believe that is what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit means.
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Hatred of the Holy Spirit is no different from hatred of God. It amounts to the same thing. People who hate God will never receive the Holy Spirit, so that they can only look upon the works of the Holy Spirit.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is par excellence attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to the devil. This is what you infer when you say that Christians who came after the apostles did not have the Holy Spirit. What did they have then?

Within three centuries, the Christian church could count some 3 million adherents. By the end of the 4th century, it was the official religion of Rome, numbering 30 million followers—or half the Empire. A century after that, there were very few pagans left.

And you say: this is not the work of the Holy Spirit?

Are you saying the Christian church is the work of the devil?

Obviously there grew up with the church many heretics who used philosophy to detract from Christianity. This was the reason for Islam, but it didn't render the work of the Holy Spirit void.

I never said that the Holy Spirit is attributed to just one person. The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God, so it cannot be confined to just one person or to just one occurrence. God can send the Holy Spirit whenever he chooses to.

25: THE HOLY SPIRIT

Baha’u’llah was no more unique than any other Manifestation of God; all of them were unique.

Why is he more unique than others who acknowledge Jesus Christ?

I do not believe that John 15:26 is Christ promising the Holy Spirit to every Christian.
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How would the Holy Spirit living inside of Christians testify of Jesus? That is impossible, yet Christians have had to believe that because they never understood what this verse refers to.

Because the Holy Spirit allows them to understand the words of Christ. "

"He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you." Jn 14:16

This is why Christians will never believe in Bahá’u’lláh, because he does not agree with what the Holy Spirit teaches Christians as to Christ. It is why your attempts to convert Christians to Baha'i is doomed to failure. The Holy Spirit will never permit it. Christians have the Holy Spirit: they do not need Bahá’u’lláh.

That is your understanding and belief. My understanding and belief is that God revealed Himself to Muhammad and Baha’u’llah in the same way that God revealed Himself to Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit.

God is always revealing himself to those who seek him: “If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.” (1 Chronicles 28:9)

Just because God chooses to reveal himself to a person does not give that person the right to assert himself as some special person. God does reveal himself to all kinds of very sinful people, such as Simon Magus. But what people do with that revelation is what counts. Some use it to exalt themselves in the temple of God and claim divine powers. They are doomed, because their hearts are not right with God. They become deceivers and heretics:

Jesus said of this kind of this person: Matt 12:43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”

Islam is an incredibly wicked religion by the standards of Christianity as it merely denies all the received teachings of Christ. Yet Baha'i is worse as to deception as it pretends to embrace Christ but actually tramples him underfoot by saying his teachings have been superseded.

Your belief is no more valid than my belief. Both are beliefs because they cannot be proven to be facts.

Speak for your own belief.

Believe whatever you want to believe, it is just a personal opinion. I consider the Qur’an equivalent to the New Testament and it is more authentic.....

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” Gleanings, p. 213

Quaran is more authentic because it's political message is more authentic?

Which all proves that Baha'i is a political religion just like Islam. You really haven't got the least idea what Christianity teaches, because for you, religion is all about politics and political power.