The Baha'is

[VoidoftheSun]

I guess that would be a prophecy about you then?

No, about you worshiping Jesus and opposing YHWH.
Jesus was very clear in his biographies with what he commanded.

 

[eik]

I do not disagree with any of that.

But belief in Baha’u’llah coupled with good deeds will get me there.

Mind you, Baha’is do not believe that heaven is a geographical location, but a Baha’i once asked the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith (Shoghi Effendi) how to get to heaven, and here was his answer...

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)

Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

How very haphazard. Don't you think God could have provided a more certain way of salvation?

There is a Messianic Jewish Christian on another forum who keeps telling me I am going to hell simply because I do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus, but he is wrong, because Jesus never said that was a requirement for eternal life:

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.”

If you do not believe in the resurrection, you are not forgiven, even if you claim to believe in Jesus. Rom 4:25 "He was delivered over to death for our trespasses and was raised to life for our justification."

Of you Matt 7:21-23 would apply.

That is similar to what Baha’u’llah said about belief in His teachings

“Such is the teaching which God bestoweth on you, a teaching that will deliver you from all manner of doubt and perplexity, and enable you to attain unto salvation in both this world and in the next. He, verily, is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Bountiful.” Gleanings, p. 87

Jesus was the Christ, and Baha’u’llah was the return of the Christ, Imb.

2 Tim 2:16 "Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

I would cite you as indulging in "godless chatter" by New Testament standards, but in fact far worse as you actively deny the resurrection. In Christian terms you are currently beyond redemption.

The bodily resurrection of Jesus had nothing to do with His Mission. How do you explain these verses?

John 19:28-30 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

His mission to the Jews was finished. His earthly life was completed. Then he entered into his reward:

Luke 23:43 "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Finished means finished. The belief in the bodily resurrection is completely superfluous and it distracts from the teachings and the primary mission of Jesus.

You have no understanding of the scheme of salvation, or of the prophecies which Christ came to fulfil, before entering his glory.

I already addressed that on the other thread. The body of Jesus matters not at all because it nothing but flesh. Only the soul (spirit) of Jesus matters because it is eternal. This is logic 101 stuff.
The same applies to all our bodies vs. our souls.

That is an excellent question. The soul (spirit) of Jesus ascended to the Father when he died on the cross and took on a new form, a spiritual body. Thereafter Jesus was sitting at the right hand of God, which means he was as close to God as one could be, in spirit.

Jesus never died, only His body died. We are not bodies, we are souls who inhabit a physical body, but only while we are live in a physical body. After our physical body dies we are freed from it and continue to exist in another form, a heavenly form.

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

Baha’i is not heretical to Christianity because it is not Christian.

Gal 1:8-9 certainly does not apply to Baha’i and I explained why. Paul was referring to another gospel, but the Baha’i Faith is not another gospel. It is a new religion that was revealed by God.

A new religion revealed by God in 1844, the same century that countless heretical sects of Christianity like Jehovas Witnesses, Mormonism, Dispensationalism, Theosophy, Liberalism (i.e. liberal theology), Marxism/communism, Unitarianism Universalism, Feminism etc arose and departed from the church, or else sought to corrupt it. So each one of these new religions is right?

My question: why did God wait until 1844 before revealing a "new religion" to someone who couldn't even cite a single biblical prophecy about himself? Why did he not reveal himself from the earliest of times?

How gullible do you have to be not to realize that Baha'i is, even without knowing anything of it, likely to be completely false, just from an analysis of when it arose?

 

[VoidoftheSun]

You have no understanding of the scheme of salvation, or of the prophecies which Christ came to fulfil, before entering his glory.

I don't think you do, Jesus added nothing to what was already in the Torah, he just conveyed what they were forgetting in their observance of the Torah.

 

[eik]

No, about you worshiping Jesus and opposing YHWH.
Jesus was very clear in his biographies with what he commanded.

No-one worships Jesus anymore, because Jesus died circa AD30. Jesus was resurrected to the right hand of God and sits in judgement, even on you. Jesus did not oppose YHWH, he revealed YHWH before destroying unbelieving Judaism in the Jewish wars circa AD70 following his resurrection. I suggest you don't try to use apocalyptic Christian writings to undermine Christianity: it doesn't show you as having any theological insights.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

No-one worships Jesus anymore

Yes they do, they believe Jesus is part of the Trinity, that he is co-equal with God. They pray and worship his name and think it has power.

Jesus was resurrected to the right hand of God and sits in judgement, even on you.

Yes, and even the Qur'an says that. Jesus will tesify against those who worshiped him, he will serve as intercessor for those who followed what he taught with understanding and piety, like Muhammad and Moses will.

Jesus did not oppose YHWH

I didn't say that he did, I said that you do. You worship Jesus and oppose YHWH.

before destroying unbelieving Judaism in the Jewish wars circa AD70.

Yes, I know that.

I suggest you don't try to use Christian writings to undermine Christianity

Lol

 

[Trailblazer]

Nonsense. There is no evidence for non-resurrection.

And there is no evidence for a resurrection either, so to assert that it happened is an argument from ignorance:

Argument from ignorance asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,

1. true
2. false
3. unknown between true or false
4. being unknowable (among the first three).[1]

Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia

 

[firedragon]

I wish you all the best in your search. No Baha'i should push their faith on another

In all honesty, if the topic was about a plant you have always tried to push your faith down the throat. Every single topic. So I would call for a recheck on your statement. Yet I know it won’t happen because it’s been said and repeated.

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'i is 99% Islam

Anyway you reject the gospels, along with Islam.

Who are you to say what Baha'i is?
No, we do not reject the gospels, but we do interpret them differently than Christians
Typical Christian, if you do not agree with ME you reject the gospels.

Ever heard of the virgin birth?

I guess you do not read my posts very thoroughly:

1637. Christ, Virgin Birth of

"First regarding the birth of Jesus Christ. In light of what Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá have stated concerning this subject it is evident that Jesus came into this world through the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, and that consequently His birth was quite miraculous. This is an established fact, and the friends need not feel at all surprised, as the belief in the possibility of miracles has never been rejected in the Teachings. Their importance, however, has been minimized."

(From a letter dated December 31, 1937 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)

More nonsense stats. Acts 4:4, denoting events shortly after the resurrection, lists a total of 5,000 believers. By 350AD, 33.8million is estimated. There was effectively no non-Christian religion in Europe, apart from by Islamic conquest and Judaism until occultism, deism and atheism began to be accepted as alternatives to religion in the 17th & 18th & especially 19th centuries.

I do not doubt that within 350 years of Christ crucifixion Christianity had become the state sponsored religion of the largest empire on earth; but again, how much is that expansion was a free will choice people made to recognize Jesus and what He actually taught? Most of the Christians were accepting the state religion and what Paul taught about freedom from the Law and being saved by the blood of Jesus, which is not what Jesus taught.

Paul's concept of Christianity

Paul's teaching centered on understanding the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as a central turning point in history.

He understood the resurrection to signal the end of the need to live under Jewish law.

Instead Paul taught of living in the Spirit in which the power of God was made to work through human flesh.

Some of his letters to fledgling churches throughout the Roman Empire are contained in the New Testament and outline Paul's theology.

He insisted that Gentiles had as much access to the faith as Jews and that freedom from the Law set everyone free.

It was this teaching which was essential for the development and success of the early church which would otherwise have remained nothing more than another Jewish sect.

Roman Empire

Paul established Christian churches throughout the Roman Empire, including Europe, and beyond - even into Africa.

Persecution

However, in all cases, the church remained small and was persecuted, particularly under tyrannical Roman emperors like Nero (54-68), Domitian (81-96), under whom being a Christian was an illegal act, and Diocletian (284-305).

Many Christian believers died for their faith and became martyrs for the church (Bishop Polycarp and St Alban amongst others).

Constantine turns the tide

When a Roman soldier, Constantine, won victory over his rival in battle to become the Roman emperor, he attributed his success to the Christian God and immediately proclaimed his conversion to Christianity.

Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.

Constantine then needed to establish exactly what the Christian faith was and called the First Council of Nicea in 325 AD which formulated and codified the faith.

BBC - Religions - Christianity: The basics of Christian history

However, Christianity was very small in the first century, before Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.

 

[shunyadragon]

i.e. neither believe in anything apart from the existence of a distinctly deist "God" whom it is assumed will save all mankind someday.

The God of the Baha'i Faith is not a Deist God. Unitarians can believe in a Deist, Theist, Atheist or indifferent as to whether God exists.

It is obvious that Unitarian and Baha'i beliefs are not the 'same,' but both religions acknowledge the diversity human expressions of belief, and do not define there 'sense of the human community' based on exclusive religious beliefs. Both acknowledge the evolution and diversity of the human perspective of belief over time.

 

[night912]

Do you have any evidence that he wasn't resurrected?

There's no evidence. That is why one should not believe that he wasn't resurrected. There's also no evidence that he was resurrected, therefore one should not believe that he was resurrected.

Confused? It usually is for the ones who does not know and/or understand what "believe" means. Those people will look at that and will only be able to see that there is only one belief being presented. But those who do understand, are able to see that two beliefs are being presented.

 

[eik]

There's also no evidence that he was resurrected,

How do you account for the Holy Spirit being poured out on the apostles in the upper room so that they "began to speak in other tongues as the spirit enabled them?"

5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, b 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”
​

How is that, if what Jesus said would happen when he was resurrected, came to pass, that there is no evidence for his resurrection?

 

[Riders]

"Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise" This one along with The Kingdom Of Heaven is within you is further proof of the Inner Godself.

 

[Riders]

Thank you Riders. I looked it up and I am 15hrs in front of your time, so I will be at work and out bush, so can not make it.

Thank you for the invite.

Regards Tony

Thank you for considering it! I'll let you know how it goes!!!

 

[Trailblazer]

But those who do understand, are able to see that two beliefs are being presented.

And no facts are being presented.

 

[night912]

How do you account for the Holy Spirit being poured out on the apostles in the upper room so that they "began to speak in other tongues as the spirit enabled them?"

5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, b 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”
​

How is that, if what Jesus said would happen when he was resurrected, came to pass, that there is no evidence for his resurrection?

Think really hard as to why you don't see any evidence for no resurrection. Then just take out the word "no," and that might just shine some light in to understand why.

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you account for the Holy Spirit being poured out on the apostles in the upper room so that they "began to speak in other tongues as the spirit enabled them?"

5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, b 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”
​

How is that, if what Jesus said would happen when he was resurrected, came to pass, that there is no evidence for his resurrection?

All these are beliefs, not facts, because they can never be proven.

fact

something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:

FACT | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

 

[Trailblazer]

Think really hard as to why you don't see any evidence for no resurrection. Then just take out the word "no," and that might just shine some light in to understand why.

Most Christians believe that beliefs are facts, as evidenced by this comment:

"How is that, if what Jesus said would happen when he was resurrected, came to pass, that there is no evidence for his resurrection?"

 

[night912]

How do you account for the Holy Spirit being poured out on the apostles in the upper room so that they "began to speak in other tongues as the spirit enabled them?"

I don't have one, because I don't have any evidence to support that happening and/or it did.

It's the same as when I saw an Unidentified Flying Object. I didn't say that it was a space ship of an advanced alien civilization. I called it an object that I was unable to identify what it actually was.

Which one do you believe that I saw, an Unidentified Flying Object or an alien ship?

 

[eik]

I don't have one, because I don't have any evidence to support that happening and/or it did.

It's the same as when I saw an Unidentified Flying Object. I didn't say that it was a space ship of an advanced alien civilization. I called it an object that I was unable to identify what it actually was.

Which one do you believe that I saw, an Unidentified Flying Object or an alien ship?

Well the evidence you have is in print. And it has been repeated oft times. Perhaps the reason why you can't see any evidence is because, like Nelson, you put the telescope to your blind eye?

 

[eik]

All these are beliefs, not facts, because they can never be proven.

fact

something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:

FACT | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

So why do you believe there was a person named Jesus then? Your logical inconsistencies are astounding, in believing one thing but not another. Either you believe it, or you don't. You can't pick and choose which bits to believe, just because of your political preferences. Either the whole thing is a fraud, or it's not. And no-one from the first few centuries managed to prove it to be a fraud.