The Baha'is

[Trailblazer]

You have no understanding of the scheme of salvation, or of the prophecies which Christ came to fulfil, before entering his glory.

Every Christian has a slightly different version of the scheme of salvation. What is yours?

A new religion revealed by God in 1844, the same century that countless heretical sects of Christianity like Jehovas Witnesses, Mormonism, Dispensationalism, Theosophy, Liberalism (i.e. liberal theology), Marxism/communism, Unitarianism Universalism, Feminism etc arose and departed from the church, or else sought to corrupt it. So each one of these new religions is right?

The Coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah released the Holy Spirit into the world and that is what we see new age movements and new religious movements, but there was only one return of Christ, and that was Baha’u’llah, according to my beliefs. The Bab was the Gate whose primary mission was to prepare the way announce the Coming of Baha’u’llah, but He was also a Manifestation of God who had His own religion for a few short years, until He was martyred in 1850.

My question: why did God wait until 1844 before revealing a "new religion" to someone who couldn't even cite a single biblical prophecy about himself? Why did he not reveal himself from the earliest of times?

Why God waited is because the omniscient God knows when the time is right to send a new Messenger and the time was not right until 1844. Humanity was not ready for a new Messenger or in need of a new Revelation from God until 1844.

Baha’u’llah did cite certain biblical prophecies and claimed to be their fulfillment. Baha’u’llah claimed to be the Father foretold by Isaiah and He also claimed to be the Comforter Jesus promised to send from the Father.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

“Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 63

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for hedwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

In the following passages, Baha’u’llah claimed to be the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth who Jesus promised to send from the Father:

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, "I go away, and come again unto you"? 2 Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: "When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth." 3And yet behold how, when He did bring the truth, ye refused to turn your faces towards Him, and persisted in disporting yourselves with your pastimes and fancies. Ye welcomed Him not, neither did ye seek His Presence, that ye might hear the verses of God from His own mouth, and partake of the manifold wisdom of the Almighty, the All-Glorious, the All-Wise. Ye have, by reason of your failure, hindered the breath of God from being wafted over you, and have withheld from your souls the sweetness of its fragrance. Ye continue roving with delight in the valley of your corrupt desires. By God! Ye, and all ye possess, shall pass away. Ye shall, most certainly, return to God, and shall be called to account for your doings in the presence of Him Who shall gather together the entire creation?” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 191

And shortly after that proclamation all the kings fell from power, just as Baha’u’llah had warned. This is all verifiable history. There are many other Tablets that he wrote to the religious leaders and the kings and rulers warning them what would happen if they did not need His call, this is just one example. The important point is that everything Baha’u’llah predicted came to pass, including WWI and WWII.

How gullible do you have to be not to realize that Baha'i is, even without knowing anything of it, likely to be completely false, just from an analysis of when it arose?

I do not know what you say that. The time it arose is according to the Bible prophecies.

Daniel Chapter 12: 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The "Book" was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL

“Time of the end” never meant the end of the world, one thing Christians have misunderstood. It meant end of an Age. Muhammad was called the Seal of the Prophets because He was the last Prophet in the Adamic Cycle (Prophetic Cycle) and thus He sealed off that Cycle.

In 1844 the Bab and Baha’u’llah, the “twin” Manifestations of God, ushered in a new Cycle of religion and the Age of Fulfillment. All the “new age” movements and all the scientific discoveries we have seen since the 19th century are the result of the inception of this new Cycle, this New Age that we are now living in.

 

[MichaelleahciM]

I decided to go back and try to take a few more classes on them before I make my mind up on anything. The ladies were pretty nice. I did tell them not long after I started taking classes I was not interested in joining any religion now, they acted insulted and said they never push their religion to get converts.

So I was worried they may have been insulted and lost contact with them. But I decided to take a few more classes before I make up my mind so, got in contact with them today. Hope they can get a zoom class together in the next week or two.

Lights of Guidance An in-depth manual on being Baha'i,
Two other books; God Speaks Again by Kenneth Bowers and,
Amazon.com : a concise encyclopedia of the bahai faith

With the Encyclopedia you can jump right to a subject, God Speaks Again requires reading the entire book and lights of guidance you can jump close to a subject your looking for and best of it's free.

 

[eik]

I do not go by New Testament standards because I believe that the New Testament is no longer in force, since the Dispensation of Jesus Christ was abrogated by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

The gospel of Jesus has not been abrogated, only the Dispensation of Jesus has been abrogated...
The new gospel is no longer new, it got old over time.

That means by an arrangement of God the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is now according to the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, not according to the gospel of Jesus.

What if Baha'u'llah's wrong? Did he himself ever reflect that he might have been wrong? And more to the point, why wasn't he prophesied?

You still have not shown me any verses that say that I have to believe in the bodily resurrection in order to be saved. That is not even a valid “belief” (no less a fact) unless you have verses to support it.

1 Cor 15:3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephasa and then to the Twelve. 6After that, He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one of untimely birth.​

I have quoted this verse before, and I'll quote it again:

Ps 16:10 "For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay."​

That is what all Christians must believe, because the resurrection is founded on a prophecy that it would happen, and which is why it is completely anachronistic to believe some of the gospels but not all of them, since their claim to legitimacy relies so heavily on OT prophecy.

I agree with that. Baha’u’llah wrote that Jesus was sitting on the right hand of God and that Jesus ascended to His Reward in the fourth heaven after He was crucified. Below is Baha’u’llah’s depiction of the trial of Jesus:

“Similarly, call thou to mind the day when the Jews, who had surrounded Jesus, Son of Mary, were pressing Him to confess His claim of being the Messiah and Prophet of God, so that they might declare Him an infidel and sentence Him to death. Then, they led Him away, He Who was the Day-star of the heaven of divine Revelation, unto Pilate and Caiaphas, who was the leading divine of that age. The chief priests were all assembled in the palace, also a multitude of people who had gathered to witness His sufferings, to deride and injure Him. Though they repeatedly questioned Him, hoping that He would confess His claim, yet Jesus held His peace and spake not. Finally, an accursed of God arose and, approaching Jesus, adjured Him saying: “Didst thou not claim to be the Divine Messiah? Didst thou not say, ‘I am the King of Kings, My word is the Word of God, and I am the breaker of the Sabbath day?’” Thereupon Jesus lifted up His head and said: “Beholdest thou not the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and might?” These were His words, and yet consider how to outward seeming He was devoid of all power except that inner power which was of God and which had encompassed all that is in heaven and on earth. How can I relate all that befell Him after He spoke these words? How shall I describe their heinous behaviour towards Him? They at last heaped on His blessed Person such woes that He took His flight unto the fourth Heaven.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 132-133

(Continued on next post)

You need more than a knowledge of Christ to convince me. Mani also knew of Christ and declared himsefl to be an apostle of Jesus Christ. But now he is deemed a herestic.

 

[eik]

Every Christian has a slightly different version of the scheme of salvation. What is yours?

I reject that supposition. The scheme of salvation is generally the same for all Christians: belief, repentance, justification and salvation,

The Coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah released the Holy Spirit into the world and that is what we see new age movements and new religious movements, but there was only one return of Christ, and that was Baha’u’llah, according to my beliefs. The Bab was the Gate whose primary mission was to prepare the way announce the Coming of Baha’u’llah, but He was also a Manifestation of God who had His own religion for a few short years, until He was martyred in 1850.

The above would be accounted blasphemy against the Holy Spirit because it infers that the Holy Spirit wasn't in the world before Bab and Baha’u’llah, and it would be to ascribe the work of the Holy Spirit to the evil one. cf. Matthew 12:31

Why God waited is because the omniscient God knows when the time is right to send a new Messenger and the time was not right until 1844. Humanity was not ready for a new Messenger or in need of a new Revelation from God until 1844.

In Islam you have these self-proclaimed "prophets" that regularly appear in the guise of Mahdi, but there is no equivalent in Christianity. So whilst Baha'i may be valid from an Islamic viewpoint, the conception of "another messenger" simply finds no correlation in Christianity. Christianity precludes any other messenger but Christ, or his direct representatives.

Baha’u’llah did cite certain biblical prophecies and claimed to be their fulfillment. Baha’u’llah claimed to be the Father foretold by Isaiah and He also claimed to be the Comforter Jesus promised to send from the Father.

Which would again be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit by Christian doctrine.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

“Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 63

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for hedwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

In the following passages, Baha’u’llah claimed to be the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth who Jesus promised to send from the Father:

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, "I go away, and come again unto you"? 2 Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: "When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth." 3And yet behold how, when He did bring the truth, ye refused to turn your faces towards Him, and persisted in disporting yourselves with your pastimes and fancies. Ye welcomed Him not, neither did ye seek His Presence, that ye might hear the verses of God from His own mouth, and partake of the manifold wisdom of the Almighty, the All-Glorious, the All-Wise. Ye have, by reason of your failure, hindered the breath of God from being wafted over you, and have withheld from your souls the sweetness of its fragrance. Ye continue roving with delight in the valley of your corrupt desires. By God! Ye, and all ye possess, shall pass away. Ye shall, most certainly, return to God, and shall be called to account for your doings in the presence of Him Who shall gather together the entire creation?” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 191

And shortly after that proclamation all the kings fell from power, just as Baha’u’llah had warned. This is all verifiable history. There are many other Tablets that he wrote to the religious leaders and the kings and rulers warning them what would happen if they did not need His call, this is just one example. The important point is that everything Baha’u’llah predicted came to pass, including WWI and WWII.

The Holy Spirit is not a person in the bible but a spirit.

I do not know what you say that. The time it arose is according to the Bible prophecies.

Daniel Chapter 12: 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The "Book" was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL

“Time of the end” never meant the end of the world, one thing Christians have misunderstood. It meant end of an Age. Muhammad was called the Seal of the Prophets because He was the last Prophet in the Adamic Cycle (Prophetic Cycle) and thus He sealed off that Cycle.

In 1844 the Bab and Baha’u’llah, the “twin” Manifestations of God, ushered in a new Cycle of religion and the Age of Fulfillment. All the “new age” movements and all the scientific discoveries we have seen since the 19th century are the result of the inception of this new Cycle, this New Age that we are now living in.

I find your dating quite bizzare. And as for Muhammad being a prophet: he was the only "prophet" that contradicted everything the previous prophet said and did. Which makes me think this: the only reason why Jesus is admitted to Islam and Baha'i at all is to lend them a (false) legitimacy that they would not otherwise have had.

 

[eik]

You are the pot calling the kettle black, and it is UNBELIEVABLE that you cannot see that.
Sounds like you have been brainwashed by the New Testament.
What evidence is there that I have been brainwashed by anyone?

Question: What do you parrot?
Answer: The New Testament.

The evidence for brainwashing is that you allow your beliefs about another, even the son of God, and even about historical facts, to be governed by a third person, a mere human being. A cult is where you are not free to believe because someone says "it's against the rules." I know what I'm talking about. I was one a bystander to a cult where it was against the rules to believe that anyone not in the cult was other than grossly immoral.

I can't debate with you on an equal level, because "you have to believe Baha’u’llah." I understand that. But who is Baha’u’llah or the Babis to lecture me? What do they really know? Was Baha’u’llah a biblical scholar? What could he know in the 19th century that a vast number of biblical scholars who believed in Christ didn't also know? I have read much Christian scholarship, and to think Islamic scholars know anything of the Old or the New Testaments is wishful thinking. They know nothing and they don't want to know anything as the Koran is their book.

The approach I'm taking is that Islam is equally a cult. The Bab proclaimed himself the 12th Imam, and so ‘Baha’u’llah’ also is to my mind 99.9% Islamic. Baha'i follows shia Islam, and Islam has drawn certain lines in the sand, one of them being "no resurrection."

There's no point in debate, because you are not free to debate, where your final appeal is not to scholarship but to ‘Baha’u’llah’ and perhaps Mahomet.

The New Testament was not even written by Jesus, it came to us by way of ORAL TRADITION. so it is not the Word of God in the same sense as the Writings of Baha'u'llah which were written in the Pen of Baha'u'llah. I do not care if YOU believe Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God or not, as your belief in Jesus is no more verifiable than my belief in Baha'u'llah, actually less verifiable, since Jesus never wrote anything...

He's didn't need to. There are over three hundred prophecies of Christ in the Old Testament.

https://www.newtestamentchristians....stament-prophecies-fulfilled-in-jesus-christ/

Where are the prophecies of Mahomet or Baha'u'llah?

Are we square now?

How is this anti-Christian propaganda?
Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah wrote:

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

You asked a specific question -- why do I believe in Jesus -- and I gave you the answer.
That does not mean I do not think for myself.

It's antichristian propaganda because to the source of Jesus' power, i.e. God in heaven, is not extended to the ability to raise the sinless Jesus from the dead to fulfil Old Testament prophecy to justify the world and save it from sin. You reject the Old Testament which is why you can't accept Christ, because Christ came to fulfil the Old Testament. You have to accept both or none. Islam, and the Old Testament and Christianity, will not ever agree.

You do not believe in the authentic Jesus of the gospels nor in the authentic Old Testament. You believe in the Islamic Jesus of the Koran, for that is what is permitted for you to believe in. Islam doesn't require blood sacrifice for sins, nor any high priest for forgiveness. I don't even know why Islam is rated as an Abrahamic faith, because Abraham believed in blood sacrifice.

What did Mahomet know about Christ anyway that wasn't hearsay? Did he have access to the gospels? He was illiterate. He hated the Jews, where they would not politically support him, and killed then in droves. The Jews were nothing to Mahomet, any more than Christians. Both were deemed serfs to serve Islam by paying the Jizya.

My own reasons to believe in Jesus? Maybe you need a course in logic. How could I ever know anything about Jesus if it was not revealed in scriptures? I also believe what secular scholars say about Jesus, but that is not verification as I have from Baha'u'llah.

You clearly do an excellent job of parroting the teachings of the New Testament.

Inferior to what?
However it seems to me that the NT is largely he words of men who never even knew Jesus Christ.

It is said that Queen Victoria, upon reading the Tablet revealed for her by Baha'u'llah, remarked: "If this is of God, it will endure; if not, it can do no harm." (pdc 65) (18:49)

From: 2nd Coming of Christ by David Yamartino

I would agree that Baha’u’llah is an improvement on Mahomet, but that's not saying much.

 

[CG Didymus]

What if Baha'u'llah's wrong? Did he himself ever reflect that he might have been wrong? And more to the point, why wasn't he prophesied?

From the Baha'i book "Some Answered Questions."

All the peoples of the world are awaiting two Manifestations, Who must be contemporaneous; all wait for the fulfillment of this promise. In the Bible the Jews have the promise of the Lord of Hosts and the Messiah; in the Gospel the return of Christ and Elijah is promised.
Now we must prove from the Holy Books that these two Manifestations have come, and we must divine the meaning of the words of the Prophets...
In the Book of Daniel, from the rebuilding of Jerusalem to the martyrdom of Christ, seventy weeks are appointed; for by the martyrdom of Christ the sacrifice is accomplished and the altar destroyed. 4 This is a prophecy of the manifestation of Christ. These seventy weeks begin with the restoration and the rebuilding of Jerusalem...​

Abdul Baha goes on to explain and interpret the prophecy. Then says...

Now that the manifestation of Christ has been proved by the prophecies of Daniel, let us prove the manifestations of Bahá’u’lláh and of the Báb.
In the eighth chapter of the Book of Daniel, verse thirteen, it is said: “Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary 42 and the host to be trodden under foot?” Then he answered (v. 14): “Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed”; (v. 17) “But he said unto me … at the time of the end shall be the vision.” That is to say, how long will this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation last? meaning, when will be the dawn of the Manifestation? Then he answered, “Two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” Briefly, the purport of this passage is that he appoints two thousand three hundred years, for in the text of the Bible each day is a year. Then from the date of the issuing of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the manifestation of the Báb there are 1844 years. When you add 456 years to this number it makes 2300 years. That is to say, the fulfillment of the vision of Daniel took place in the year A.D. 1844, and this is the year of the Báb’s manifestation according to the actual text of the Book of Daniel. Consider how clearly he determines the year of manifestation; there could be no clearer prophecy for a manifestation than this.​

In the book he also interprets two chapters from Revelation. There he says that the Two Witnesses are Muhammad and Ali. He says the Three Woes are Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. So, for them, there are prophecies. In the above quoted prophecy I've asked Baha'is why does Abdul Baha start the 2300 days with the decree issued in 457BC to rebuild Jerusalem? Why doesn't the 2300 days start with the year that the daily sacrifice was stopped and the abomination set up in its place? Which is when? Not one Baha'i has explained this.

​

 

[Trailblazer]

What if Baha'u'llah's wrong? Did he himself ever reflect that he might have been wrong? And more to the point, why wasn't he prophesied?

If you mean wrong about receiving a Revelation from God, the only way He could be wrong is if He had imagined that He heard the Voice of God. You might as well ask what if Jesus was wrong, because after all Christianity is based upon the claim of Jesus to have heard from God.

Baha’u’llah and Jesus are the only ones who KNEW that they heard from God, nobody else can ever prove that they did, so that is a faith-based belief. However, each of them had evidence to support their claims. The New Testament was evidence for Jesus; the history of the Baha’i Faith and the Writings of Baha’u’llah are evidence for Baha’u’llah.

Baha’u’llah was prophesied in the Bible, OT and NT, and he fulfilled all the prophecies. All the prophecies and exactly how they were fulfilled are delineated in the book Thief in the Night by William Sears.

1 Cor 15:3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephasa and then to the Twelve. 6After that, He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one of untimely birth.

I have quoted this verse before, and I'll quote it again:

Ps 16:10 "For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay."

That is what all Christians must believe, because the resurrection is founded on a prophecy that it would happen, and which is why it is completely anachronistic to believe some of the gospels but not all of them, since their claim to legitimacy relies so heavily on OT prophecy.

That’s fine if you choose to believe that, but please note that Christians do not have to believe that, as you said. They do have a choice because we all have free will. As I pointed out to you, many liberal Christians are choosing not to believe in the bodily resurrection but they are still Christians. You cannot tell people they are not Christians just because they believe differently than you believe. If they believe in Jesus, they are Christians. The fact that they do not interpret the Bible literally does not change their belief in Jesus.

But I asked you for verses that say that I have to believe in the bodily resurrection in order to be saved, and you still have not presented those verses.

You need more than a knowledge of Christ to convince me. Mani also knew of Christ and declared himself to be an apostle of Jesus Christ. But now he is deemed a heretic.

You are right; anyone can make a claim, but proving it is another matter. Mind you, Baha’u’llah did not tell us to look at the Bible prophecies as evidence of His claim, but since you are a Christian, I suggest you read the book Thief in the Night by William Sears for a starting point.

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence and proof. These are the main reasons I believe that He was a Messenger of God (what Baha’is normally refer to as a Manifestation of God).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities, human and divine)

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

The fact that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies is like icing on the cake. That proves to me he was the Messiah and the return of Christ. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book: William Sears, Thief in the Night

The fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass is also icing on the cake. That proves to me that he could see into the future, so he had prophetic powers. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

 

[Trailblazer]

I reject that supposition. The scheme of salvation is generally the same for all Christians: belief, repentance, justification and salvation,

But what those mean to Christians is not exactly the same for every Christian, that is what I meant.

What do you mean by repentance, justification and salvation? How do you believe we are justified and saved? For most Christians it is by believing in the cross sacrifice.

The above would be accounted blasphemy against the Holy Spirit because it infers that the Holy Spirit wasn't in the world before Bab and Baha’u’llah, and it would be to ascribe the work of the Holy Spirit to the evil one. cf. Matthew 12:31

No, it does not infer that; see how things can be misconstrued? The Holy Spirit was waning when the Bab and Baha’u’llah appeared and that is why it needed to be renewed.

“All that lives, and this includes the religions, have springtime, a time of maturity, of harvest and wintertime. Then religion becomes barren, a lifeless adherence to the letter uninformed by the spirit, and man’s spiritual life declines. When we look at religious history, we see that God has spoken to men precisely at times when they have reached the nadir of their degradation and cultural decadence. Moses came to Israel when it was languishing under the Pharaoh’s yoke, Christ appeared at a time when the Jewish Faith had lost its power and culture of antiquity was in its death those. Muhammad came to a people who lived in barbaric ignorance at the lowest level of culture and into a world in which the former religions had strayed far away from their origins and nearly lost their identity. The Bab addressed Himself to a people who had irretrievably lost their former grandeur and who found themselves in a state of hopeless decadence. Baha’u’llah came to a humanity which was approaching the most critical phase of its history.” (Udo Schaefer, The Light Shineth in Darkness, p. 24)

In Islam you have these self-proclaimed "prophets" that regularly appear in the guise of Mahdi, but there is no equivalent in Christianity. So whilst Baha'i may be valid from an Islamic viewpoint, the conception of "another messenger" simply finds no correlation in Christianity. Christianity precludes any other messenger but Christ, or his direct representatives.

Do you think I don’t know that? I have been posting to Christians on forums for the last seven years. Of course Christianity precludes any other messenger but Christ, or his direct representatives; so obviously one cannot be a Christian and also a Baha’i.

The belief in the Baha’i Faith ALL hinges on the claim of Baha’u’llah to be a Manifestation of God, the return of Christ, and the Messiah. We believe that Jesus was a Messiah, but not the Messiah that the Jews have been awaiting, because Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic prophecies that are in the OT.

Which would again be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit by Christian doctrine.

Christians do not own the Holy Spirit, they just believe they do. According to Baha’i beliefs, the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and it is sent by God whenever God sends a new Manifestation (Messenger). Jesus was called the comforter because he brought the Holy Spirit and Baha’u’llah was another Comforter because he also brought the Holy Spirit.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?
Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.
Some Answered Questions, p. 108

The Holy Spirit is not a person in the bible but a spirit.

As I noted above, Baha’is believe that the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God; and since God is Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit that emanates from God. No, it is not a person.

I find your dating quite bizzare. And as for Muhammad being a prophet: he was the only "prophet" that contradicted everything the previous prophet said and did. Which makes me think this: the only reason why Jesus is admitted to Islam and Baha'i at all is to lend them a (false) legitimacy that they would not otherwise have had.

Islam and the Baha’i Faith do not need Jesus to legitimize our religions. Such is the arrogance of Christianity, it is appalling.

Muhammad did not contradict anything Jesus said in the New Testament. Muslims interpreted the Qur’an to mean what it does not mean, just as Christians have interpreted the NT to mean what it does not mean, and this is the essential problem. So some but not everything that Muslims and Christians believe is what Jesus or Muhammad actually revealed. Unless you understand that you will never understand why there are “apparent’ contradictions. Baha’is can explain all these apparent contradictions because we have the latest Revelation from God. We believe that as a Representative of God, Baha’u’llah was an appointed interpreter and as such He knew better than any man what the Bible and the Qur’an meant.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176

 

[Trailblazer]

The evidence for brainwashing is that you allow your beliefs about another, even the son of God, and even about historical facts, to be governed by a third person, a mere human being.

You did not understand what I meant, did you? Let’s try it again.

You are parroting the beliefs of Christianity. You have been brainwashed by Christianity and the evidence for brainwashing is that you allow your beliefs to be governed by Christian doctrines, what men decided at the Council of Nicaea. There are few if any verifiable historical facts surrounding the life of Jesus. However, there are many verifiable historical facts surrounding the life of Baha’u’llah.

“a third person, a mere human being?” Baha’u’llah is no more a mere human being than Jesus is. They are both Manifestations of God, on par with each other, according to my beliefs, and you cannot prove anything to the contrary. All you have is a belief, and it is no way superior to my belief.

A cult is where you are not free to believe because someone says "it's against the rules." I know what I'm talking about. I was one a bystander to a cult where it was against the rules to believe that anyone not in the cult was other than grossly immoral.

The Baha’i Faith is not a cult, it is a major religion.

“The Bahá'í faith is one of the youngest of the world's major religions.

It was founded by Baha'u'llah in Iran in the 19th century.”

BBC - Religion: Bahá'í​

Just because Baha’i membership is still small relative to the older religions that does not make it any less of a religion.

Nobody tells Baha’is what to believe, we think for ourselves.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

Christianity is another story, because children are indoctrinated to believe in Christianity before they are old enough think for themselves.

I can't debate with you on an equal level, because "you have to believe Baha’u’llah."

I can't debate with you on an equal level, because "you have to believe in Christianity" so you believe your beliefs are superior to my beliefs. You believe Christianity is superior to ANY other religion since that is the essential Christian doctrine you cannot escape.

I understand that. But who is Baha’u’llah or the Babis to lecture me? What do they really know? Was Baha’u’llah a biblical scholar? What could he know in the 19th century that a vast number of biblical scholars who believed in Christ didn't also know? I have read much Christian scholarship, and to think Islamic scholars know anything of the Old or the New Testaments is wishful thinking. They know nothing and they don't want to know anything as the Koran is their book.

I understand that. But who is Baha’u’llah or the Babis to lecture me? What do they really know? Was Baha’u’llah a biblical scholar? What could he know in the 19th century that a vast number of biblical scholars who believed in Christ didn't also know?

Nobody is lecturing you. Logically speaking, if Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God, He knew more than any biblical scholar because he has the knowledge of God.

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

I have read much Christian scholarship, and to think Islamic scholars know anything of the Old or the New Testaments is wishful thinking. They know nothing and they don't want to know anything as the Koran is their book.

Muslims do not need to know about the Old or the New Testaments because they have the Qur’an, a Revelation from God that abrogated all the previous revelations. In short, the Bible is old news.

Christian scholars know nothing about the Qur’an and they don't want to know anything as the Qur’an is their book, but they do not believe they need to know the Qur’an because they believe the Bible is the only valid scripture for all time. Nothing could be more arrogant, or more incorrect.

The approach I'm taking is that Islam is equally a cult.

You can take whatever approach you want to but you only make yourself look foolish Good luck in that belief. Sure, Islam is a cult of 1.9 billion people; get real. Islam is the second largest religion in the world, now almost as large as Christianity, and it has been projected to overtake Christianity by the year 2060.

The Bab proclaimed himself the 12th Imam, and so ‘Baha’u’llah’ also is to my mind 99.9% Islamic. Baha'i follows shia Islam, and Islam has drawn certain lines in the sand, one of them being "no resurrection."

I do not care what Baha’i is in your mind, because you are ignorant of what it actually is, a new independent religion with its own Messenger and its own scriptures.

You can believe in the resurrection if you want to but there is absolutely no evidence let alone proof that it ever happened.

There's no point in debate, because you are not free to debate, where your final appeal is not to scholarship but to ‘Baha’u’llah’ and perhaps Mahomet.

For Baha’is, our final appeal is to Baha’u’llah, just as for Christians their final appeal is to the New Testament.

There is no point in Baha’is debating with Christians because Christians believe they are superior and that they know everything. What is there to debate about?

He's didn't need to. There are over three hundred prophecies of Christ in the Old Testament.

https://www.newtestamentchristians....stament-prophecies-fulfilled-in-jesus-christ/

You mean that there are over three hundred prophecies that you believe refer to Christ in the Old Testament.

Where are the prophecies of Mahomet or Baha'u'llah?

William Sears, Thief in the Night

It's antichristian propaganda because to the source of Jesus' power, i.e. God in heaven, is not extended to the ability to raise the sinless Jesus from the dead to fulfil Old Testament prophecy to justify the world and save it from sin. You reject the Old Testament which is why you can't accept Christ, because Christ came to fulfil the Old Testament. You have to accept both or none. Islam, and the Old Testament and Christianity, will not ever agree.

No, I can accept the OT and the NT and the Qur’an and the Writings of Baha’u’llah, because I know what they all mean.

You do not believe in the authentic Jesus of the gospels nor in the authentic Old Testament. You believe in the Islamic Jesus of the Koran, for that is what is permitted for you to believe in. Islam doesn't require blood sacrifice for sins, nor any high priest for forgiveness. I don't even know why Islam is rated as an Abrahamic faith, because Abraham believed in blood sacrifice.

You are wrong about that. It is you who does not believe in the authentic Jesus. Rather, you believe in the fabricated Jesus of Christianity and Paul. ALL that stuff you believe in is Christian doctrines that were created by misinterpretation of the Bible. The Muslims understand the Bible better than any Christian.

What did Mahomet know about Christ anyway that wasn't hearsay? Did he have access to the gospels?

Muhammad knew more than you will ever know about Jesus because He was Jesus. He did not need to refer to the gospels.

“Every discerning observer will recognize that in the Dispensation of the Qur’án both the Book and the Cause of Jesus were confirmed. As to the matter of names, Muḥammad, Himself, declared: “I am Jesus.” He recognized the truth of the signs, prophecies, and words of Jesus, and testified that they were all of God. In this sense, neither the person of Jesus nor His writings hath differed from that of Muḥammad and of His holy Book, inasmuch as both have championed the Cause of God, uttered His praise, and revealed His commandments. Thus it is that Jesus, Himself, declared: “I go away and come again unto you.” Consider the sun. Were it to say now, “I am the sun of yesterday,” it would speak the truth. And should it, bearing the sequence of time in mind, claim to be other than that sun, it still would speak the truth. In like manner, if it be said that all the days are but one and the same, it is correct and true. And if it be said, with respect to their particular names and designations, that they differ, that again is true. For though they are the same, yet one doth recognize in each a separate designation, a specific attribute, a particular character. Conceive accordingly the distinction, variation, and unity characteristic of the various Manifestations of holiness, that thou mayest comprehend the allusions made by the creator of all names and attributes to the mysteries of distinction and unity, and discover the answer to thy question as to why that everlasting Beauty should have, at sundry times, called Himself by different names and titles.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 20-22

 

[Riders]

The evidence for brainwashing is that you allow your beliefs about another, even the son of God, and even about historical facts, to be governed by a third person, a mere human being. A cult is where you are not free to believe because someone says "it's against the rules." I know what I'm talking about. I was one a bystander to a cult where it was against the rules to believe that anyone not in the cult was other than grossly immoral.

I can't debate with you on an equal level, because "you have to believe Baha’u’llah." I understand that. But who is Baha’u’llah or the Babis to lecture me? What do they really know? Was Baha’u’llah a biblical scholar? What could he know in the 19th century that a vast number of biblical scholars who believed in Christ didn't also know? I have read much Christian scholarship, and to think Islamic scholars know anything of the Old or the New Testaments is wishful thinking. They know nothing and they don't want to know anything as the Koran is their book.

The approach I'm taking is that Islam is equally a cult. The Bab proclaimed himself the 12th Imam, and so ‘Baha’u’llah’ also is to my mind 99.9% Islamic. Baha'i follows shia Islam, and Islam has drawn certain lines in the sand, one of them being "no resurrection."

There's no point in debate, because you are not free to debate, where your final appeal is not to scholarship but to ‘Baha’u’llah’ and perhaps Mahomet.


He's didn't need to. There are over three hundred prophecies of Christ in the Old Testament.

https://www.newtestamentchristians....stament-prophecies-fulfilled-in-jesus-christ/

Where are the prophecies of Mahomet or Baha'u'llah?


It's antichristian propaganda because to the source of Jesus' power, i.e. God in heaven, is not extended to the ability to raise the sinless Jesus from the dead to fulfil Old Testament prophecy to justify the world and save it from sin. You reject the Old Testament which is why you can't accept Christ, because Christ came to fulfil the Old Testament. You have to accept both or none. Islam, and the Old Testament and Christianity, will not ever agree.

You do not believe in the authentic Jesus of the gospels nor in the authentic Old Testament. You believe in the Islamic Jesus of the Koran, for that is what is permitted for you to believe in. Islam doesn't require blood sacrifice for sins, nor any high priest for forgiveness. I don't even know why Islam is rated as an Abrahamic faith, because Abraham believed in blood sacrifice.

What did Mahomet know about Christ anyway that wasn't hearsay? Did he have access to the gospels? He was illiterate. He hated the Jews, where they would not politically support him, and killed then in droves. The Jews were nothing to Mahomet, any more than Christians. Both were deemed serfs to serve Islam by paying the Jizya.


I would agree that Baha’u’llah is an improvement on Mahomet, but that's not saying much.

Some would say the same thing about Christianity and Jesus was not the true savior as prophecy d about in the old testament.

 

[eik]

Some would say the same thing about Christianity and Jesus was not the true savior as prophecy d about in the old testament.

I would allege the same thing against them. There are a large number of Jewish Rabbis who do not permit the Jews to believe in any literally begotten son of God, on doctrinal grounds, and thus preclude belief in Christ. If you bind yourself to such Rabbis, then you are not thinking for yourself, but allowing others to think for you.

 

[eik]

From the Baha'i book "Some Answered Questions."

All the peoples of the world are awaiting two Manifestations, Who must be contemporaneous; all wait for the fulfillment of this promise. In the Bible the Jews have the promise of the Lord of Hosts and the Messiah; in the Gospel the return of Christ and Elijah is promised.
Now we must prove from the Holy Books that these two Manifestations have come, and we must divine the meaning of the words of the Prophets...
In the Book of Daniel, from the rebuilding of Jerusalem to the martyrdom of Christ, seventy weeks are appointed; for by the martyrdom of Christ the sacrifice is accomplished and the altar destroyed. 4 This is a prophecy of the manifestation of Christ. These seventy weeks begin with the restoration and the rebuilding of Jerusalem...​

Abdul Baha goes on to explain and interpret the prophecy. Then says...

Now that the manifestation of Christ has been proved by the prophecies of Daniel, let us prove the manifestations of Bahá’u’lláh and of the Báb.
In the eighth chapter of the Book of Daniel, verse thirteen, it is said: “Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary 42 and the host to be trodden under foot?” Then he answered (v. 14): “Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed”; (v. 17) “But he said unto me … at the time of the end shall be the vision.” That is to say, how long will this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation last? meaning, when will be the dawn of the Manifestation? Then he answered, “Two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.”

Briefly, the purport of this passage is that he appoints two thousand three hundred years, for in the text of the Bible each day is a year. Then from the date of the issuing of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the manifestation of the Báb there are 1844 years. When you add 456 years to this number it makes 2300 years. That is to say, the fulfillment of the vision of Daniel took place in the year A.D. 1844, and this is the year of the Báb’s manifestation according to the actual text of the Book of Daniel. Consider how clearly he determines the year of manifestation; there could be no clearer prophecy for a manifestation than this.
​

​

Most biblical commentators take Daniel 8 to be referring to the period of Antiochus Epiphanes and the times of the Maccabees. I admit you have a degree of commonality with 7th Day Adventists in believing 1844 to be significant, but they were largely discredited in Christian circles when nothing happened in 1844.

To take 2300 days as 2300 years is non-contextual to what precedes Dan 8:14, which is "taking away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary being thrown down." This only has relevance if you construe days as days and not years. There is nothing relevant to 2300 years linking the "taking away of the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary being thrown down."

In any case, what "sanctuary was reconsecrated" in 1844? Nothing. It is just a misinterpretation. And what has the edict of Artaxerxes got to do with anything in Dan 8?

The rest of Dan 8 seems to be referring to the Selecuid era.

In the book he also interprets two chapters from Revelation. There he says that the Two Witnesses are Muhammad and Ali. He says the Three Woes are Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. So, for them, there are prophecies. In the above quoted prophecy I've asked Baha'is why does Abdul Baha start the 2300 days with the decree issued in 457BC to rebuild Jerusalem? Why doesn't the 2300 days start with the year that the daily sacrifice was stopped and the abomination set up in its place? Which is when? Not one Baha'i has explained this.

Exactly. Dan 8 is about the Seleucid era and the times of the Maccabees only. That is the only plausible context to Dan 8.

​

 

[eik]

But what those mean to Christians is not exactly the same for every Christian, that is what I meant.

What do you mean by repentance, justification and salvation? How do you believe we are justified and saved? For most Christians it is by believing in the cross sacrifice.

Repentance: turning away from sin. Justification: being reconciled to God by the blood sacrifice of Christ. Salvation: living a life freed from sin by the power of the Holy Spirit given by Christ upon his resurrection, in the expectation of eternal life on the day of judgement.

No, it does not infer that; see how things can be misconstrued? The Holy Spirit was waning when the Bab and Baha’u’llah appeared and that is why it needed to be renewed.

But who are they to speak for the Christian world? The 19th century was a century of enormous missionary activity. The Holy Spirit was very active in the 18th and 19th centuries! Far more than in the 20th and 21st centuries.

“All that lives, and this includes the religions, have springtime, a time of maturity, of harvest and wintertime. Then religion becomes barren, a lifeless adherence to the letter uninformed by the spirit, and man’s spiritual life declines. When we look at religious history, we see that God has spoken to men precisely at times when they have reached the nadir of their degradation and cultural decadence. Moses came to Israel when it was languishing under the Pharaoh’s yoke, Christ appeared at a time when the Jewish Faith had lost its power and culture of antiquity was in its death those. Muhammad came to a people who lived in barbaric ignorance at the lowest level of culture and into a world in which the former religions had strayed far away from their origins and nearly lost their identity. The Bab addressed Himself to a people who had irretrievably lost their former grandeur and who found themselves in a state of hopeless decadence. Baha’u’llah came to a humanity which was approaching the most critical phase of its history.” (Udo Schaefer, The Light Shineth in Darkness, p. 24)

Do you think I don’t know that? I have been posting to Christians on forums for the last seven years. Of course Christianity precludes any other messenger but Christ, or his direct representatives; so obviously one cannot be a Christian and also a Baha’i.

OK

The belief in the Baha’i Faith ALL hinges on the claim of Baha’u’llah to be a Manifestation of God, the return of Christ, and the Messiah. We believe that Jesus was a Messiah, but not the Messiah that the Jews have been awaiting, because Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic prophecies that are in the OT.

But he did fulfil them perfectly. Which ones did he not fulfil?

Christians do not own the Holy Spirit, they just believe they do. According to Baha’i beliefs, the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and it is sent by God whenever God sends a new Manifestation (Messenger). Jesus was called the comforter because he brought the Holy Spirit and Baha’u’llah was another Comforter because he also brought the Holy Spirit.

But you accuse Jesus of failure by allowing the Holy Spirit to dry up. It is not so. As I have said, Christianity was greatly extended in the 19th century into many countries in which it had not previously existed. The Holy Spirit has been active in every century in preserving the faithful.

I have no idea to whom Baha’u’llah brought the Holy Spirit. Certainly in no comparable numbers to Christ. Jesus did not fail in any sense. I really don't think you understand Him.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?
Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.
Some Answered Questions, p. 108

The Holy Spirit in the bible is the spirit of the Father in heaven, and sent at Christ's direction to tell us about Christ and truth, not about Baha’u’llah!

Jhn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

As I noted above, Baha’is believe that the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God; and since God is Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit that emanates from God. No, it is not a person.

The Holy Spirit is alive because every part of God is alive, and treated as if fully sensate and alive by Christ himself. All spirit is alive by definition of the word "spirit," especially God's spirit.

Islam and the Baha’i Faith do not need Jesus to legitimize our religions. Such is the arrogance of Christianity, it is appalling.

Without Jesus you would be stuck with the illiterate Mahomet, the warlord who was determined to spread his message by the sword, and equally conquest-orientated followers.

We can't be that sure of what Mahomet actually did teach because so much was added by his followers. A false Jesus is merely borrowed from Christianity to increase your credibility!

Mahomet is what he is: the creator of Arabian supremacist religion, a political/religious creed that establishes itself by political conquest and by persecuting all arguments and persons that oppose the Koran's humanistic and law based religion, which is itself a blend of Arabic culture, paganism and Judaism, with a very superficial ackowledgement of Jesus thrown in for good measure along with Mahomet's renunciation of the old Arabian pagan idols.

Muhammad did not contradict anything Jesus said in the New Testament.

Mahomet contradicted the whole of the New Testament, except perhaps the miracles and good works of Christ. All Christian theology was summarily abolished by Mahomet, who said "God had no son."

Muslims interpreted the Qur’an to mean what it does not mean, just as Christians have interpreted the NT to mean what it does not mean, and this is the essential problem.

Muslims cannot interpret the Koran because they don't understand where it came from, which was basically a composition of men, long after he died, in order to promulgate a political creed. The Koran contains translations of works in Syriac and Aramaic. Hence the 70 virgins in heaven (which is a mistranslation).

As for Christians: they possess a level of biblical scholarship that you can only dream of! The bible is the most analysed book in the whole world, and it has stood the test of time, and withstood every attack on Christian faith from time immemoral. And it has withstood the attacks on it by Baha’u’llah who I'd doubt has converted any true Christians to his blend of Islam and false Chrstianity (plenty of fake ones though, I have no doubt).

So some but not everything that Muslims and Christians believe is what Jesus or Muhammad actually revealed. Unless you understand that you will never understand why there are “apparent’ contradictions.

The contradiction is not "apparent. "Christ said he was the begotten son of God. Mahomet opposes it. The two are irreconcilable.

Baha’is can explain all these apparent contradictions because we have the latest Revelation from God. We believe that as a Representative of God, Baha’u’llah was an appointed interpreter and as such He knew better than any man what the Bible and the Qur’an meant.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176

There is no possibility of reconciling the irreconcilable, except by detracting from the message / gospel of Christ, which is what you do!

 

[Trailblazer]

Repentance: turning away from sin. Justification: being reconciled to God by the blood sacrifice of Christ. Salvation: living a life freed from sin by the power of the Holy Spirit given by Christ upon his resurrection, in the expectation of eternal life on the day of judgement.

These are the commonly held Christian beliefs about repentance and justification, but my understanding is that salvation is by the cross sacrifice, which is what I found on Google. I do not understand why the resurrection is necessary.

They believe that salvation is possible only through Jesus' ransom sacrifice, and that individuals cannot be reconciled to God until they repent of their sins, and then call on the name of God through Jesus.
Salvation in Christianity - Wikipedia​

But who are they to speak for the Christian world? The 19th century was a century of enormous missionary activity. The Holy Spirit was very active in the 18th and 19th centuries! Far more than in the 20th and 21st centuries.

They were not speaking for the Christian world; they were speaking to the WHOLE world. Just because there was a lot of missionary activity, that does not mean that the Holy Spirit was active in the world.

But he did fulfil them perfectly. Which ones did he not fulfil?

A more salient question would be -- which prophecies did Jesus fulfil?

There are many OT prophecies that Jesus did not fulfill. For example:

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace because world peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Baha’u’llah set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

These prophecies cannot refer to Jesus because Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) and in those verses Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God. Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder when He said to “rend onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21). Jesus disclaimed that He would establish a kingdom where he would rule with judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

But you accuse Jesus of failure by allowing the Holy Spirit to dry up. It is not so. As I have said, Christianity was greatly extended in the 19th century into many countries in which it had not previously existed. The Holy Spirit has been active in every century in preserving the faithful.

That the Holy Spirit waned (not dried up) in the world 2000 years after Jesus walked the earth had NOTHING to do with Jesus. It waned because of humans and what they did and how they forgot what Jesus said. Jesus knew that would happen and that is why Jesus said:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Comforter is a title for Baha’u’llah. The Father sent the Holy Ghost to Baha’u’llah and Baha’u’llah brought the Holy Ghost, taught you all things, and called Jesus into remembrance by writing what He wrote about Jesus:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things...... Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Baha’u’llah also testified of Jesus in that same passage:

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.” Gleanings, p. 86

I have no idea to whom Baha’u’llah brought the Holy Spirit. Certainly in no comparable numbers to Christ. Jesus did not fail in any sense. I really don't think you understand Him.

NO, Jesus did not fail in any sense. Jesus brought the Holy Spirit, but Baha’u’llah also brought the Holy Spirit. Whether it was BROUGHT has nothing to do with how many people believe in Jesus vs. Baha’u’llah, as it was released when Jesus came into the world and again when Baha’u’llah came into the world; the process is the same.

In that same passage I quoted above, Baha’u’llah described what happened when Jesus released the Holy Spirit into the world:

“By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.”
Gleanings, pp. 85-86

Baha’u’llah said that the evidence of the Holy Spirit is “now manifest before thee” so that means it had not dried up when that was written about 150 years ago. However, in spite of sincere and faithful Christian such as yourself, the Christian faith has waned in the world, as many believing Christians in the Western world have dropped out and become atheists. This has become increasingly apparent in the United States which was 95% Christian in the early 1950s; in 2019 the percentage was 65%. The same pattern can be seen in many countries in Europe.

The Holy Spirit in the bible is the spirit of the Father in heaven, and sent at Christ's direction to tell us about Christ and truth, not about Baha’u’llah!

Jhn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

But of course that is how the Holy Spirit is depicted in the Bible; that was wrotten before Baha’u’llah had come into the world.

I would rephrase what you said: “The Holy Spirit in the bible is the spirit of the Father in heaven that was sent to Christ by the Father in heaven so that Christ could tell us the truth about God. Jesus came to bear witness to the truth about God, and that is what the following verse means:

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

The Holy Spirit is alive because every part of God is alive, and treated as if fully sensate and alive by Christ himself. All spirit is alive by definition of the word "spirit," especially God's spirit.

If course the Holy Spirit of God is alive, it never dies

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

Without Jesus you would be stuck with the illiterate Mahomet, the warlord who was determined to spread his message by the sword, and equally conquest-orientated followers.

Clearly, Jesus is the one who laid the essential foundation for the Kingdom of God on earth, that which was necessary for humanity to move on to the next stage of its spiritual evolution, when the Kingdom of God will actually be built during the present dispensation, the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah.

From: Christ and Baha'u'llah

The Kingdom in the Bible . . . . . . . . . . . .14
Jesus Christ, Herald of the Kingdom . . . . . . 20

“Jesus created a power of perceiving God which was new, and in order that it might operate clearly, had to cleanse the spirit of man from all worldly encumbrances. Virtue becomes detachment from the world, sin attachment to it. Jesus demanded this sacrifice — losing the life of the world for the life of the spirit, but He made God so attractive, so joyous, loving, powerful, that the Christian was ready to abandon all for Him, and for Christ Who revealed Him.

Thus the tremendous and fearsome Deity of the Old Testament wins men's hearts in the New. We read of the poor sparrow whose fall was watched by a loving Father, of the flower of the field and the bird of the air, and the tenderest stories that ever have won men's hearts — the prodigal son and the good Samaritan.

A new quality of love now characterizes the Kingdom, a love which united the believers not only with God, but with each other, and even extended to enemies and "them that hate you." "That ye love one another" became the test of Christian discipleship.

The supreme ideal of this love was, as shown in John, the relationship between Christ and the Father, and though revealed in the most simple language and the plainest words, stands as the highest expression of Divine love in scripture.

The result was that Jesus' teachings let loose upon the soul and heart of man a spiritual power such as never had been known in the world before. Historians have said that Jesus' teaching has done more to elevate human nature and civilization than all the laws of legislators and the disquisitions of philosophers combined. By releasing religious energies measured to the needs of the hour and the people, He opened the way to the Kingdom of God in men's hearts. New affections and aspirations, hopes and loyalties were brought into being and the whole moral world was carried into a state of flux.”

Christ and Baha'u'llah, Chapter 4

Religion is associated with social evolution. Thus the primary mission of each Messenger of God changes from age to age, and it is progressive, each mission building upon the previous one. Jesus focused on a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. Muhammad focused on nation building, and Baha’u’llah focused on world unity and the oneness of mankind. Each one of these was a necessary building block that enabled the next one to take place. Mankind’s spiritual evolution develops gradually, proceeding step by step, and that is why God reveals religious Truth in various stages over time, called Progressive Revelation....

Religion and Social Evolution

We can't be that sure of what Mahomet actually did teach because so much was added by his followers. A false Jesus is merely borrowed from Christianity to increase your credibility!

Sheesh! You just described Christianity to a tee.
We can't be that sure of what Jesus actually did teach because so much was added by his followers!

Mahomet is what he is: the creator of Arabian supremacist religion, a political/religious creed that establishes itself by political conquest and by persecuting all arguments and persons that oppose the Koran's humanistic and law based religion, which is itself a blend of Arabic culture, paganism and Judaism, with a very superficial ackowledgement of Jesus thrown in for good measure along with Mahomet's renunciation of the old Arabian pagan idols.

I think it is time you learned something about the real Muhammad and how Islam contributed to the advancement of civilization, as opposed to the Islam of Christian propaganda.

Islamic Contributions to Civilization

Full text of "Islamic Contributions To Civilization Stanwood Cobb"

A Blind Spot in History

EVEN in this modem age of enlightenment few people are aware of the significant contributions made by the Islamic world to the progress of humanity. Yet for more than five centuries that civilization not only led the world in science, but was the only portion of mankind actively engaged in the systematic pursuit of knowledge.

Beginning with the rise to power of Baghdad in the mid-eighth century and continuing beyond Islamic political decline five hundred years later, science and education flourished under Muslim influence. No such activity characterized any other part of the contemporary world. The lights of Graeco-Roman culture had been extinguished and Europe was engulfed in the Dark Ages;

India was languishing in a period of stagnation; and China, while blossoming richly in the arts, was almost wholly devoid of science.

These contrasting facts are little known for several reasons. For far too long our histories have concentrated on the rise and fall of empires, the militaristic clash of nations, and the succession of dynasties. Only lately have historians begun to trace the rise of civilization itself. Moreover, until relatively recently the West remained insular. Not until the Age of Enlightenment and the French Revolution did the history, arts and religions of Oriental countries begin to interest the Western mind.

(Stanwood Cobb, Islamic Contributions to Civilization. pp.6-7)

Mahomet contradicted the whole of the New Testament, except perhaps the miracles and good works of Christ. All Christian theology was summarily abolished by Mahomet, who said "God had no son."

No, Muhammad simply did not uphold the Christian theology, but since the Christian theology was not what Jesus taught in the New Testament, what Muhammad did was clear up some of the Christian misconceptions. For example, God does not have a biological son because God is not a human being. Son of God rather refers to the relationship Jesus had to God, who was His Father in a metaphorical sense.

Muslims cannot interpret the Koran because they don't understand where it came from, which was basically a composition of men, long after he died, in order to promulgate a political creed. The Koran contains translations of works in Syriac and Aramaic. Hence the 70 virgins in heaven (which is a mistranslation).

You are the pot calling the kettle black, again.

Christians cannot interpret the New Testament because they don't understand where it came from, which was basically a composition of men, long after Jesus died, which was then misconstrued by men and turned into Christian doctrine, which was wholly different from what Jesus actually taught.

The Quran is MUCH more authentic than the New Testament because it was written by scribes who actually knew Muhammad. By contrast, the NT came to us by way of oral tradition and was written by men who never knew Jesus.

Muhammad did not write Quran as he didn't know how to write. According to tradition, several of Muhammad's companions served as scribes and recorded the revelations. Shortly after his death, the Quran was compiled by the companions, who had written down or memorized parts of it.

Period: 609–632
Quran - Wikipedia

The Koran contains translations of works in Syriac and Aramaic. Hence the 70 virgins in heaven (which is a mistranslation).

Granted, that was a mistranslation, as there were not any virgins in heaven.

As for Christians: they possess a level of biblical scholarship that you can only dream of! The bible is the most analysed book in the whole world, and it has stood the test of time, and withstood every attack on Christian faith from time immemoral. And it has withstood the attacks on it by Baha’u’llah who I'd doubt has converted any true Christians to his blend of Islam and false Chrstianity (plenty of fake ones though, I have no doubt).

It’s too bad that all that scholarship has not brought Christianity any closer to actually knowing what the Bible means regarding some very important concepts that Baha’u’llah and His son Abdu’l-Baha explained.

Baha’u’llah has not attacked the Christian faith, but the Guardian Shoghi Effendi wrote that there will be attacks on the Baha’i Faith by Christians and that is when the Baha’i Faith will really start growing, because then people will know what it is all about. When they finally come to know what the Baha’i Faith is all about, they will compare Christianity with the Baha’i Faith and then even more people will drop out of Christianity.

The contradiction is not "apparent "Christ said he was the begotten son of God. Mahomet opposes it. The two are irreconcilable.

What is irreconcilable is the belief that Jesu was the biological son of God.

“More specifically, what does the original author mean by “only begotten?” Of course, the original author didn’t write in English; he wrote in Greek. The single Greek word translated “only begotten” is monogenes. Ancient writers often used this adjective to describe a child’s unique relationship with their parent. Moreover, the emphasis was on the specific relationship, not the physical begetting itself. In fact, monogenes is better understood to describe a relationship as “one-of-a-kind” or “unique.” This is exactly how the biblical writers would have understood the word.
What Does It Mean That Jesus Is God’s Only Begotten Son?

So there you have it, in plain print. He is saying exactly what Bahais believe: “The single Greek word translated “only begotten” is monogenes. Ancient writers often used this adjective to describe a child’s unique relationship with their parent. Moreover, the emphasis was on the specific relationship, not the physical begetting itself. “

There is no possibility of reconciling the irreconcilable, except by detracting from the message / gospel of Christ, which is what you do!

No, that is not what I do. What I do is explain how the message / gospel of Christ was misinterpreted by Christians.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Y'oure putting the apostrophe in the wrong spot.

So says the guy who put an apostrophe between the Y and o. LOL! Obviously an intentional grammatical error. Nicely done!

 

[eik]

Clearly, Jesus is the one who laid the essential foundation for the Kingdom of God on earth, that which was necessary for humanity to move on to the next stage of its spiritual evolution, when the Kingdom of God will actually be built during the present dispensation, the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah.
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It's certainly rather presumptuous of Baha’u’llah. to pretend to some new dispensation respecting the kingdom of God. It is in the Islamic tradition for mere men to exalt themselves as teachers. In Christianity, it is seen as blasphemous for anyone to pretend to equality with Christ.

In circa 300 years Christ amassed circa 30 million followers. In 150 years Baha’u’llah has amassed 6 million. Then there are problems with Baha'i identity. Many move on to other religions, but are retained in the Baha'i statistics. Given the far greater number of people in the world today, Baha’u’llah seems to be on an upward struggle to even obtain parity with Christianity.

As for theological insight, it all seems to be about Baha’u’llah rather than God himself. I mean consider this: if Baha’u’llah is always pointing to Christ, then why not be a Christian. Why should anyone learn about Christ from Baha'i?

The way I see it, Baha’u’llah may be a messenger to muslims, just as Mahomet was to the Arabians, but he's not any kind of messenger to Christians. Christians used not to acknowledge Islam as anything more than paganism, and Baha'i isn't much different to Islam with its political rather than spiritual focus.

Religion is associated with social evolution. Thus the primary mission of each Messenger of God changes from age to age, and it is progressive, each mission building upon the previous one.
,
,

I do not accept what you say, which would only be true if religion was a political enterprise. For Christians Christ is as relevant today as 2000 years ago. Christ is focused on personal spiritual evolution. To God is entrusted the growth and the government of the world. I see Baha’u’llah as more interested in politics than religion, which is what I would expect from a muslim, sadly.

Sheesh! You just described Christianity to a tee.
We can't be that sure of what Jesus actually did teach because so much was added by his followers!

We can be pretty sure of what Christ said, because three of the gospels were written by those who knew him intimately. Moreover there is no "hadith."

In Islam there is but one Koran. This is how is Abu Bakr compiled it: "The fragments were recovered from every quarter, including from the ribs of palm branches, scraps of leather, stone tablets and "from the hearts of men". Perhaps from Christian manuscripts in Syriac too?

In Christianity there are four gospels written by different people that mostly all agree with each other. By this single fact we can be far surer of what Christ said than what Mahomet said.

I think it is time you learned something about the real Muhammad and how Islam contributed to the advancement of civilization, as opposed to the Islam of Christian propaganda.
.
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What I know about Islam is this: Islam came with no culture of its own other than Arabic customs. Islam mostly borrowed materials from others, especially the ancient Greeks, and architecture from the Byzantines etc. Nearly everything in Islam is borrowed from another culture. Even its religion is a blend of Jewish, Christian and Arabic religion, enchanced by Mahomet's own revelations / dogmatisms.

No, Muhammad simply did not uphold the Christian theology, but since the Christian theology was not what Jesus taught in the New Testament, what Muhammad did was clear up some of the Christian misconceptions. For example, God does not have a biological son because God is not a human being. Son of God rather refers to the relationship Jesus had to God, who was His Father in a metaphorical sense.

So you deny the virgin birth? In Sura 19:16-36 it is difficult to see how Mary was not a virgin when she gave birth to Christ, as she had no husband. So you & Mahomet saying God had no biological son is very strange. It is in fact a contradiction, given what is in the Koran.

However this one thing I will grant you: Muslims may have a legitimate gripe against those ignorant Christians who assert Jesus was a God in human form. He was a man, I'll agree but one who came from heaven. So God was his Father, in not only a metaphorical sense, or by process of adoption, but because "The Word was with God" before Christ's conception John 1:1.

You are the pot calling the kettle black, again.

Christians cannot interpret the New Testament because they don't understand where it came from, which was basically a composition of men, long after Jesus died, which was then misconstrued by men and turned into Christian doctrine, which was wholly different from what Jesus actually taught.

How do you know? You have no evidence for that whatsoever, which is why, when you come out with such things, you turn every Christian off Baha'i and make it seem like a cult.

The Quran is MUCH more authentic than the New Testament because it was written by scribes who actually knew Muhammad. By contrast, the NT came to us by way of oral tradition and was written by men who never knew Jesus.

Complete rubbish.

Muhammad did not write Quran as he didn't know how to write. According to tradition, several of Muhammad's companions served as scribes and recorded the revelations. Shortly after his death, the Quran was compiled by the companions, who had written down or memorized parts of it.

Period: 609–632
Quran - Wikipedia

Granted, that was a mistranslation, as there were not any virgins in heaven.

As I have indicated above it was "collected" from who knows where. I'm not saying that parts of it are not authentic. I am saying the Koran is a "collection" of disparate documents of varying origin. All the traditions about it are clearly done for the sake of enhancing its authenticity.

It’s too bad that all that scholarship has not brought Christianity any closer to actually knowing what the Bible means regarding some very important concepts that Baha’u’llah and His son Abdu’l-Baha explained.
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I am afraid that what you have said above would make most Christians run a mile from Baha'i. In any case, as I have said, to deny the physical resurrection would be an act of apostasy for a Christian, so you're not like to get many converts from Christianity, except from amongs the ignorant, or nominal.

What is irreconcilable is the belief that Jesu was the biological son of God.
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I am familiar with this argument. Monogenes was used of Isaac, son of Abraham in Hebrews 11:17-19, to mean the only legitimate son of the covenant, placing him above Ishmael, the son of the servant. In the same way Christ is the only legitimate son of God, being placed over all the metaphorical or adopted sons of God.

Obviously Christ was not "physically" begotten, because he pre-existed. Neither was he spiritually begotten (i.e. before the world began after the pagan conception). In some sense he was biologically conceived by God because he had no human father. The main thing to note is how Christ describes himself, which is coming down from heaven after experiencing a kenosis (i.e. an emptying) so as to become a man.

I some sense I could agree that if what you are protesting is High Trinitarianism, where Christ is effectively a God in human form, I would concede you have grounds to object. But you don't need to become a Baha'i to protest. There are many Christians who reject the high Trinity of Roman Catholicism. The heresies of the Christian churches never warrant apostacy from the Christian faith, Christianity has many protestants, but none would deny the resurrection and expect to remain an orthodox Christian.

No, that is not what I do. What I do is explain how the message / gospel of Christ was misinterpreted by Christians.

Which is in Christian terms a very dangerous occupation.

Rev 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
​

It's a brave (or foolish) man who contradicts any Christian doctrine written in the New Testament.

 

[CG Didymus]

​

Most biblical commentators take Daniel 8 to be referring to the period of Antiochus Epiphanes and the times of the Maccabees. I admit you have a degree of commonality with 7th Day Adventists in believing 1844 to be significant, but they were largely discredited in Christian circles when nothing happened in 1844.

To take 2300 days as 2300 years is non-contextual to what precedes Dan 8:14, which is "taking away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary being thrown down." This only has relevance if you construe days as days and not years. There is nothing relevant to 2300 years linking the "taking away of the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary being thrown down."

In any case, what "sanctuary was reconsecrated" in 1844? Nothing. It is just a misinterpretation. And what has the edict of Artaxerxes got to do with anything in Dan 8?

The rest of Dan 8 seems to be referring to the Selecuid era.


Exactly. Dan 8 is about the Seleucid era and the times of the Maccabees only. That is the only plausible context to Dan 8.

​

What are the 2300 evenings and mornings in Daniel 8? I don't know, but it sure does not seem to be 2300 years that start with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, yet that is what Abdul Baha says. Thanks Elk

 

[H Finn]

Trailblazer,above you posted a good explanation of the meaning of Jesus as only son of God. To my understanding the only Christian group which would insist on biological sonship instead of what you explained are the Mormons. Interesting how there are areas of agreement lying so close to areas of divergent understanding. (Baha'i not holding a trinitarian of sonship)

This thread started out seeming to link Baha'i with Unitarian Universalist which seemed odd as those are quite separate groups with quite different histories. Someone could see some comparison. Both are nontrinitrarian monotheists. At least that is the background I believe of the Unitarian portion. Combined with universalism, all or most shall be saved, it might tend to see unification in the varieties of the worlds religions.

I think one of the most interesting ideas within Baha'i is seeing revelation as the original source for all the worlds religions. To see God as being concerned with people all over the world I think presents God as consistent with himself instead of the contradictory picture of God caring for some folks occasionally.

To my understanding Baha'i faith does not simply combine past faith but makes a clear stand on its own principal. That certainly gives it a strength. That does bring up a question however. Above you were asked how a person gets to heaven and you answered accept the current manifestation of God and live accordingly. Would that mean those people outside of that circle are lost? Are you of a view like many Christians that only those people God draws to accept Jesus(or the current manifestation of God) in an understanding belief and faith are not lost?

 

[Trailblazer]

That does bring up a question however. Above you were asked how a person gets to heaven and you answered accept the current manifestation of God and live accordingly. Would that mean those people outside of that circle are lost? Are you of a view like many Christians that only those people God draws to accept Jesus (or the current manifestation of God) in an understanding belief and faith are not lost?

Welcome to the forum. The Baha'i Faith is an expansive faith with many different teachings, so maybe if you are interested we can discuss some of those over time. But for now I will try to address your question about heaven.

I guess you must be referring to this letter that I posted.

Mind you, Baha’is do not believe that heaven is a geographical location, but a Baha’i once asked the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith (Shoghi Effendi) how to get to heaven, and here was his answer...

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)

Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

The way I interpret that is that to get the guarantee of going to heaven, which in the Baha’i Faith simply means nearness to God, we need both faith in Baha’u’llah and good deeds, but I do not think that means that only Baha’is will go in heaven...

Baha’u’llah did not spell it out who goes to heaven, but there are things He wrote that are indicators. For example:

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths…” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

Please note that in these passages Baha’u’llah refers to the followers of and recognition of the one true God. I believe that is the God that was revealed in the Torah, the Bible and the Qur’an, as well as in the Writings of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Of course, as a Baha’i I believe that what has been revealed about God by Baha’u’llah is all of what we need to know in this modern age. and He also clarified some misconceptions about God from past religions, so in order to know God as fully as possible, I believe we would have to refer to the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

Baha’u’llah wrote that followers of the one true God will experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, and that death offers every confident believer he gift of everlasting life, bestowing joy and gladness. That sounds like heaven to me. The question is, what did He mean by followers of the one true God and confident believer? If that includes all believers in the one true God that would mean it includes Jews, Christians, and Muslims, or anyone else who believes in the one true God. I just don’t know what He meant for sure.

Baha’u’llah also wrote about how to attain salvation and everlasting life, but I do not want to overwhelm you with any more passages right now.

But as an aside, I interpret the following quite to mean that even nonbelievers could go to heaven, if they lead a moral life:

"This cycle is the cycle of favor and not of justice. Therefore, those whose deeds are clean and pure, even though they are not believers, will not be deprived of the divine mercy; but perfection is in faith and deeds. Undoubtedly, a person, who is not a believer, but whose deeds and morals are good, is far better than one who claims his belief in words but, who, in actions, is a follower of satan. The Blessed Beauty says, 'My humiliation is not in my imprisonment, which, by my life, is an exaltation to me; nay rather, it is in the deeds of my friends, who attribute themselves to us and commit that which causes my heart and pen to weep!'"
(Attributed to 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Star of the West, vol. 9, issue 3, p. 29)

There is another quote from Abdu’l-Baha that indicates that those who never heard of Baha’u’llah will not be held accountable for belief in Him, as long as they followed the rules of conduct as laid down by Jesus and always walked in the straight path:

"Then as to what thou hast asked me for pious people who died before they heard the Voice of this Manifestation. Listen: Those who have mounted to God before hearing the Voice, if they followed the rules of conduct as laid down by Jesus and always walked in the straight path,they have obtained this Dazzling Light after their rising to the Kingdom of God. I pray God to lift the veil for thee and to corroborate by the spirit of experience, so that all may be evident to thee, by the Holy Spirit of God."
('Abdu'l-Bahá, Tablets of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, p. 478)

One thing that initially attracted me to the Baha'i Faith is its all-inclusiveness. I could never believe in a religion that would exclude billions of people from heaven for all of eternity just because of their beliefs.