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The Bastardization of the Second Amendment

9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
esmith said:
What would be the benefit of limiting carrying a pistol or revolver openly vice concealed?
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If you carry openly, people who don't want to be near you, your gun, and the associated risk have the information to make their decision. If your gun is concealed, you deny those people their free choice (edit: and you impose that risk on them without their consent).
 
esmith

esmith

Veteran Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
If you carry openly, people who don't want to be near you, your gun, and the associated risk have the information to make their decision. If your gun is concealed, you deny those people their free choice (edit: and you impose that risk on them without their consent).
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So you are walking down the street or in a store in my state how do you know who does or does not have a concealed weapon on them. If so how will you make a determination if your "free choice" is being denied? Simple answer you don't. And if only open carry is allowed how are you going to react when the street or store is filled with armed individuals.

Also what risk do you impose on a person by having a weapon on their person?
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
esmith said:
So you are walking down the street or in a store in my state how do you know who does or does not have a concealed weapon on them.
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I don't; that was my point.

If so how will you make a determination if your "free choice" is being denied? Simple answer you don't
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The fact that I'm unaware that my freedom is being violated doesn't mean that it isn't being violated.

And if only open carry is allowed how are you going to react when the street or store is filled with armed individuals.
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I'd probably take my business elsewhere, if I had the option.

Obviously, open carry is less preferable to no weapons in the business at all. I'm saying that open carry is better than closed carry - at least with open carry, I can avoid the people whose judgement is so poor that they think they need to be ready to open fire in a public place filled with innocent people.

Also what risk do you impose on a person by having a weapon on their person?
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You have all the risks associated with insecure storage of a loaded gun, e.g. accidental discharge.

You also have all the risks associated with being in the same room as a gunfight, should one happen... and the whole premise behind carrying the gun in the first place is that the gun owner thinks that there's enough of a chance that a gunfight might happen that he's taken significant measures to be ready for it.

Let me put it this way: say you were doing something downrange at your gun range - fixing an issue with your target, for instance - when the guy three spots over from you fires on his target. Would you feel safe?

Knowing that he saw no safety problem with shooting at a target near you, would you be comfortable around him at the range generally?

More likely: would he be immediately be shouted at to stop by everyone nearby and then kicked out of the gun range and told to never come back?

That's basically the situation we're talking about here, but you expect people to be okay with it. I don't want to be around when someone opens fire in a public place and I REALLY don't want to be around an armed person who thinks that opening fire in a public place is sometimes a good idea.

Maybe you're happy to tolerate this risk for yourself, but you deny freedom to others if you deny them the opportunity to make that choice for themselves.
 
esmith

esmith

Veteran Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
I don't; that was my point.
The fact that I'm unaware that my freedom is being violated doesn't mean that it isn't being violated.
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What makes you think your freedom is being violated if someone is carrying a firearm whether concealed or not.
And your freedom does not trump my freedom.

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Obviously, open carry is less preferable to no weapons in the business at all. I'm saying that open carry is better than closed carry - at least with open carry, I can avoid the people whose judgement is so poor that they think they need to be ready to open fire in a public place filled with innocent people.
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Obviously you obsession with those that carry firearms seems to be based on a false paranoia.
A person who carries a firearm, concealed carry is safer by the way, does not intend to discharge their weapon in a public place unless they or someone else's life is in danger. They would have no reason to do so and if they did discharge their weapon without just cause they would be subject to criminal charges.
9-10ths_Penguin said:
You have all the risks associated with insecure storage of a loaded gun, e.g. accidental discharge.
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Yes there are always possibilities of an accidental discharge if a weapon is handled in an unsafe manner. However if a weapon is handled in a safe manner the possibility of an accidental discharge is small or next to none.
9-10ths_Penguin said:
You also have all the risks associated with being in the same room as a gunfight, should one happen... and the whole premise behind carrying the gun in the first place is that the gun owner thinks that there's enough of a chance that a gunfight might happen that he's taken significant measures to be ready for it.
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If you were in any of the locations that have had an incident of a terrorist attack that resulted in multiple deaths and injuries would you prefer someone with a weapon that could take the shooter down or would you prefer to allow the shooter to continue their attack and possibly shooting you.



9-10ths_Penguin said:
Maybe you're happy to tolerate this risk for yourself, but you deny freedom to others if you deny them the opportunity to make that choice for themselves.
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What makes you think anyone's freedom is being violated by someone carrying a weapon. The person carrying the weapon has the legal right to carry that weapon, therefore you have no say in the matter. That is except to not be in any location that the right to carry a weapon is allowed.
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
esmith said:
What makes you think your freedom is being violated if someone is carrying a firearm whether concealed or not.

And your freedom does not trump my freedom.
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Whenever we aren't able to do what we want, our freedom is limited. And you're right: in this case, what you want and what I want are in conflict?

So how do we resolve this conflict? My approach is to follow that old saying: "your right to swing your arms ends at the tip of my nose." In the same vein, I think that your right to carry a gun should end when it creates a risk for me or the people I care about.

Obviously you obsession with those that carry firearms seems to be based on a false paranoia.
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That's funny. You see so many hidden enemies around you that you feel the need to carry deadly weapons with you wherever you go, but you think I'm the paranoid one? o_O

A person who carries a firearm, concealed carry is safer by the way,
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Debatable and irrelevant. I want to make my own decisions about the risks I'm exposed to. Concealed carry denies me this opportunity.

does not intend to discharge their weapon in a public place unless they or someone else's life is in danger.
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Again: debatable. There have been plenty of times when CCWs have shot at shoplifters, people doing nothing wrong who made the CCW feel frightened, etc.

And I'm not even okay with them planning to discharge their weapon in life-threatening situations. I don't want them adding more danger to a situation that's already too dangerous.

They would have no reason to do so and if they did discharge their weapon without just cause they would be subject to criminal charges.
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And people always obey the law? :rolleyes:

Yes there are always possibilities of an accidental discharge if a weapon is handled in an unsafe manner. However if a weapon is handled in a safe manner the possibility of an accidental discharge is small or next to none.
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That's a big "if". I'd say it's one you can't guarantee will happen all of the time.

If you were in any of the locations that have had an incident of a terrorist attack that resulted in multiple deaths and injuries would you prefer someone with a weapon that could take the shooter down or would you prefer to allow the shooter to continue their attack and possibly shooting you.
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First off: a terrorist attack is so freakishly unlikely that it borders on idiotic to carry around a gun all the time just in case you happen to be in one. It would make more sense to wear a life jacket everywhere you go in case of surprise tsunamis.

Second: in the unlikely event that I am in a terrorist attack, my gut reaction will be to assume that any civilian I see with a gun is one of the terrorists. If I see you or some other cowboy with delusions of grandeur opening fire, I'm going to react as if you're a terrorist, whether that means guiding people away from you - and potentially into harm's way from the actual terrorists - or pointing out your position to the police in the hope that they shoot you or - if the opportunity presents itself and things seem desperate enough - trying to take you out myself as best as I can.

If a terrorist attack really does happen, I want the police to know that if they see someone who has a gun and isn't a cop, they can be sure that he's a terrorist and respond accordingly. I don't want them second-guessing themselves - making themselves vulnerable in the process - because you decided to pretend to be a cop. I want the firefighters and paramedics to be able to concentrate on the terrorists' victims and not have to worry about the people you might mistake for a terrorist or hit by accident.

What makes you think anyone's freedom is being violated by someone carrying a weapon. The person carrying the weapon has the legal right to carry that weapon, therefore you have no say in the matter. That is except to not be in any location that the right to carry a weapon is allowed.
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We're talking how the law ought to be. The current state of the law is irrelevant.
 
esmith

esmith

Veteran Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
We're talking how the law ought to be. The current state of the law is irrelevant.
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So sorry Charlie, this law is not about to be changed anytime in the near future. However nothing says that some states might attempt it.
However the number of states allowing CCW are increasing
Moves to Ease Gun-Carrying Restrictions Expand

and hopefully the National Right to Carry will be passed
https://www.thetrace.org/2017/01/ne...s-concealed-constitutional-carry-reciprocity/
 
tytlyf

tytlyf

Not Religious
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