the beasts: darwin, hitler and nero.

[Augustus]

Sorry if Hitler's words and actions defy your logic

Usually the same people say "OMG Trump's pretending he's a Christian again and all these dumb fundies lap it up unquestioningly!"

And also the logic of basically every historian who has ever studied the issue. Sorry if this fact disturbs your prejudice.

I would go into detail but it's a total waste of time.

You can start here if you'd like a basic primer: Religious views of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia

https://inference-review.com/letter/hitlers-christianity

It's based on the false dichotomy of Christian or atheist. He was neither.

Did notice this though, "While it is certainly true that Mao and Stalin were unbelievers, "

Remember when you said it was "revisionist" to consider Stalin an atheist as historians generally agree with you that he was a Christian

I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. - Adolf Hitler

Hitler talked a lot about God, Providence, Nature, Will, etc. That doesn't make him a Christian

His personal beliefs seemed to be some strange kind of providential deism.


Volume Two: The National Socialist Movement by Adolf Hitler

CHAPTER 5
PHILOSOPHY AND ORGANIZATION

Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition.

The objection may very well be raised that such phenomena in world history arise for the most part from specifically Jewish modes of thought, in fact, that this type of intolerance and fanaticism positively embodies the Jewish nature...

A philosophy [Christianity] filled with infernal intolerance will only be broken by a new idea, driven forward by the same spirit, championed by the same mighty will, and at the same time pure and absolutely genuine in itself. The individual may establish with pain today that with the appearance of Christianity the first spiritual terror entered in to the far freer ancient world, but he will not be able to contest the fact that since then the world has been afflicted and dominated by this coercion, and that coercion is broken only by coercion, and terror only by terror. Only then can a new state of affairs be constructively created.

MEIN KAMPF by Adolf Hitler: Volume 2, Chapter 5 - Philosophy and Organization

 

[epronovost]

@ChristineM

The evidence of Hitler's religiosity aren't all that solid. He certainly was culturally christian and maybe had a thing for deism. Sure, in public, especially early in his reign, he presented a facade of a reasonnably faithful man, but in private, if you are to believe Bronman's diary or that of Goebels, Hitler despised mainstream Christianity and considered religion a bunch of fables and myths. He didn't like atheism all that much either, especially in public, because of its association to communism. Hitler's view of religion and christianity was very poor though he did fancy the project that religion could adopt nazi ideology and should do so. In a sense, the more actually christian members of the nazi party were the proto-founders of Christian Identity movements (that, for those who don't know what it is, is a unhealthy mix of fundamental christianism mixed with an enormous dose of nationalism, antisemitism, more mundare racism and some pseudo-history).

 

[ChristineM]

I yield to your right to interpret it how you desire.

I interpret it as it reads, without ambiguity. Unlike INTF who claim appear to think XIC as written on the fragment is incomplete. I wonder why?

 

[ChristineM]

@Augustus @epronovost

History is written by the winners, often to discredit the vanquished. Which is why i go of the words and deeds of hitler himself.

From those writings and actions it is easy to see that although not devout, but most certainly christian, and there is little doubt that he manipulated religion to his own ends, just like many powerful leaders.

 

[Kenny]

I interpret it as it reads, without ambiguity. Unlike INTF who claim appear to think XIC as written on the fragment is incomplete. I wonder why?

Yet i quoted as they read it and understood it. But, alas, to no avail.

why is the fragment incomplete?

 

[ChristineM]

Yet i quoted as they read it and understood it. But, alas, to no avail.

why is the fragment incomplete?

INTF use the term "conjectured reading".

 

[epronovost]

@Augustus @epronovost

History is written by the winners, often to discredit the vanquished. Which is why i go of the words and deeds of hitler himself.

From those writings and actions it is easy to see that although not devout, but most certainly christian, and there is little doubt that he manipulated religion to his own ends, just like many powerful leaders.

Except the history isn't written by the winners in that case. If I quote the journals of Bronman, Speer or those Goebels, I'm quoting nazis talking about Hitler's opinion on religion. The idea that "history is written by the victor" is largely wishful thinking of autocrats who thought they could censor their opposition and erase all traces of their missdeeds.

 

[Stevicus]

who is 666? bible quotes:
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. (Revelation 13:18)
gematria is a calculation, a number from a name, a word, a phrase. every letter has a number allocated. the amount of all numbers is the number allocated to that word. if in latin alphabet, you allocate to the letter z, the number 1 and to next letters in inverse order of the alphabet, you allocate 2,3,4, etc, until 10, then 10,20,30, etc, until 100, then 100,200,300, etc, until last letter a, the word (name) hitler is 666. h=100, i=90, t=7, l=60, e=400, r=9. this is one of many possible gematries. in "real" gematria, the hebrew alphabet, nero is the only famous person with the number 666.
caesar neron = nron qsr = נרונ קסר
resh (ר) samekh (ס) qoph (ק) nun (נ) vav (ו) resh (ר) nun (נ)
200 + 60 + 100 + 50 + 6 + 200 + 50 = 666
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (Revelation 17:8)
from this quote, we can understand the beast (666) will live two times. what similarities have hitler and nero? both they fought jews, both they killed themselves after they lost the war, both were the biggest killers in the history of humanity, nero killed paul and peter, in one word: 666. maybe God gave two chances to 666 to be a human, but he refused those.

darwin, the first beast:
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. (Revelation 13:3)
wasn't darwin sick all his life and almost healed in his old age?
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? (Revelation 13:4)
who can fight darwin?
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Revelation 13:7)
wasn't christianity defeated by darwin all over the world?
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Revelation 13:8)
darwin is the first beast.

Actually, it's Ronald(6) Wilson(6) Reagan(6). 6 letters in each of his names, but if that's not enough, consider that the winning lottery numbers in Maryland on Election Night in 1980 were...6-6-6.

Plus, he was an unabashed capitalist and motivated by greed (more so than any other president before or since), which seems like the worst kind of sin anyone can commit.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Actually, it's Ronald(6) Wilson(6) Reagan(6). 6 letters in each of his names, but if that's not enough, consider that the winning lottery numbers in Maryland on Election Night in 1980 were...6-6-6.

Plus, he was an unabashed capitalist and motivated by greed (more so than any other president before or since), which seems like the worst kind of sin anyone can commit.

I've actually heard that theory before.

 

[Stevicus]

I've actually heard that theory before.

At least I can say that the lottery numbers really were 6-6-6 in Maryland on Election Night. I was curious so I looked in the newspaper archive files just to make sure.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

@Augustus @epronovost

History is written by the winners, often to discredit the vanquished. Which is why i go of the words and deeds of hitler himself.

From those writings and actions it is easy to see that although not devout, but most certainly christian, and there is little doubt that he manipulated religion to his own ends, just like many powerful leaders.

Publically, Hitler put on the Christian face because it's what Germany was, and it's how he got the people behind him. Privately though, he was bitterly opposed to Christianity and his reign and policy made it clear religion would take a back seat to state policy, saying it must not offend the "moral sensibilities" of the "German race." (And he certainly wasn't fond of Himmler's Volkish obsessions and pursuits)

 

[ChristineM]

Except the history isn't written by the winners in that case. If I quote the journals of Bronman, Speer or those Goebels, I'm quoting nazis talking about Hitler's opinion on religion. The idea that "history is written by the victor" is largely wishful thinking of autocrats who thought they could censor their opposition and erase all traces of their missdeeds.

And i quote the man himself, not third party sources.

 

[ChristineM]

Publically, Hitler put on the Christian face because it's what Germany was, and it's how he got the people behind him. Privately though, he was bitterly opposed to Christianity and his reign and policy made it clear religion would take a back seat to state policy, saying it must not offend the "moral sensibilities" of the "German race." (And he certainly wasn't fond of Himmler's Volkish obsessions and pursuits)

Above all else he was a nationalist and longed to return the face to his country that was taken after ww1. So yes he put his country above religion.

 

[epronovost]

And i quote the man himself, not third party sources.

"I'll have my reckoning with the church. I'll have it reeling on the ropes."
Adolf Hitler, 29 April 1941 as reported by both Speer and Goebbels.

"Science cannot lie, for it's always striving, according to the momentary state of knowledge, to deduce what is true. When it makes a mistake, it does so in good faith. It's Christianity that's the liar. It's in perpetual conflict with itself. The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that's left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity."
Adolf Hitler, 14 October 1941 according to Bronman's diary.

"The Furher is deeply religious, though completely anti-Christian. He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race. This can be seen in the similarity of their religious rites. Both (Judaism and Christianity) have no point of contact to the animal element, and thus, in the end they will be destroyed. The Führer is a convinced vegetarian on principle."
Joseph Goebbels, 29 December 1939

I can quote Hitler dissing Christianity as well as his close friends and associates claiming he did so too. What's more honest, a politician talking to a crowd or a politician talking to his friends and acolytes?

 

[ChristineM]

"I'll have my reckoning with the church. I'll have it reeling on the ropes."
Adolf Hitler, 29 April 1941 as reported by both Speer and Goebbels.

"Science cannot lie, for it's always striving, according to the momentary state of knowledge, to deduce what is true. When it makes a mistake, it does so in good faith. It's Christianity that's the liar. It's in perpetual conflict with itself. The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that's left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity."
Adolf Hitler, 14 October 1941 according to Bronman's diary.

"The Furher is deeply religious, though completely anti-Christian. He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race. This can be seen in the similarity of their religious rites. Both (Judaism and Christianity) have no point of contact to the animal element, and thus, in the end they will be destroyed. The Führer is a convinced vegetarian on principle."
Joseph Goebbels, 29 December 1939

I can quote Hitler dissing Christianity as well as his close friends and associates claiming he did so too. What's more honest, a politician talking to a crowd or a politician talking to his friends and acolytes?

There are many comments allegedly made by Hitler and reported by his "closest" allies that are either misattributed, disputed, untrustworthy or mistranslated.

This is not one of them

I did not want this struggle. Since January, 1933, when Providence entrusted me with the leadership of the German Reich, I had an aim before my eyes which was essentially incorporated in the program of our National Socialist party. I have never been disloyal to this aim and have never abandoned my program... Only when the entire German people become a single community of sacrifice can we expect and hope that Almighty God will help us. The Almighty has never helped a lazy man. He does not help the coward. He does not help a people that cannot help itself. The principle applies here, help yourselves and Almighty God will not deny you his assistance.

• Radio broadcast from Berlin, 3 October 1941.

 

[metis]

(BTW, Métis should not be confused with @metis , a highly respected forum member who may or may not have sojourned in Michigan and Ontario)

Three of my four grandparents were Me'tis, two from Quebec and one from Illinois who had migrated there. However, I was not bought up in what's called "the tradition of the elders". I live in Michigan but spend a lot of time in Ontario and some in Quebec, but not now because of the virus.

And thanks for the "highly respected member" accusation, and I'll get even with you some day when you least expect it!!!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Three of my four grandparents were Me'tis, two from Quebec and one from Illinois who had migrated there. However, I was not bought up in what's called "the tradition of the elders". I live in Michigan but spend a lot of time in Ontario and some in Quebec, but not now because of the virus.

I find that really, really interesting. Thanks.

BTW, do you ever get to Stratford? Our annual pilgrimage to the Shakespeare Festival was scheduled for August. That's obviously not happening.

And thanks for the "highly respected member" accusation, and I'll get even with you some day when you least expect it!!!

(... save for the fact that I always expect it.)

 

[metis]

BTW, do you ever get to Stratford? Our annual pilgrimage to the Shakespeare Festival was scheduled for August. That's obviously not happening

I was only there once but really enjoyed it, especially since I enjoy gardening and theirs were spectacular imo. We attended one play, which was from Quebec but with the words in English.

You might not like this much but our favorite city by far is Montreal, followed by Quebec City. We've spent much more time in Toronto and Windsor though, and we really enjoy them as well.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I was only there once but really enjoyed it, especially since I enjoy gardening and theirs were spectacular imo. We attended one play, which was from Quebec but with the words in English.

You might not like this much but our favorite city by far is Montreal, followed by Quebec City. We've spent much more time in Toronto and Windsor though, and we really enjoy them as well.

I love Quebec. There's this great hat store at the lower level near the funicular, and across the street and up the block a bit one can get some of the best café au lait in the world.

Speaking of Quebec, did you ever happen to eat at the L'Atre on the Ile D'Orleans? It was simply amazing. I can remember driving there and parking in this somewhat disappointing gravel lot one or two blocks away. The only conspicuous feature was a flag pole with flag. We raised the flag and the restaurant sent a horse-drawn buggy to pick us up and take us to dinner. (It was a bit like Cinderella meets Anne of Green Gables.) Sadly, the restaurant closed in 1998.

I've spent much less time in Montreal, and most of that in Laval doing some work for its transit system. The only thing I remember is a great Jewish-style deli and some remarkable Bouillabaisse.

Another favorite destination of ours is Niagara-on-the-Lake, it's theaters, and the surrounding wineries.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

"The Furher is deeply religious, though completely anti-Christian. He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race. This can be seen in the similarity of their religious rites. Both (Judaism and Christianity) have no point of contact to the animal element, and thus, in the end they will be destroyed. The Führer is a convinced vegetarian on principle."
Joseph Goebbels, 29 December 1939

That coming from the head propagandist of the Third Reich as well as a close associate of Hitler, I see no reason he woukd have made that up. He would have had absolutely nothijg to gain but a hellish existence for tye remainder of his life had he lied about it. But why would he? It seema doubtful to me he would.