the beasts: darwin, hitler and nero.

[epronovost]

There are many comments allegedly made by Hitler and reported by his "closest" allies that are either misattributed, disputed, untrustworthy or mistranslated.

Neither were the ones I presented. There was a short dispute on the second quote which was translated in english from a french translation and has a stronger tone than the original german one, but in essence it's the same.

 

[ChristineM]

Neither were the ones I presented. There was a short dispute on the second quote which was translated in english from a french translation and has a stronger tone than the original german one, but in essence it's the same.

Ok

"... As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice…For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.”. Adolf Hitler.

 

[epronovost]

Ok

"... As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice…For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.”. Adolf Hitler.

Did he say that in public to fullfil a political objective as Goebbles, Speer and Bronman said he does or did he say that in private to express his feelings and beliefs?

 

[ChristineM]

Did he say that in public to fullfil a political objective as Goebbles, Speer and Bronman said he does or did he say that in private to express his feelings and beliefs?

He said it. What does it matter how we cherry pick where?

So how about
"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so"
Adolf Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941

 

[epronovost]

He said it. What does it matter how we cherry pick where?

It matters because that'swhat we call "historical context" and not putting a quote in its context is called "quote minning" and doesn't necessarily reflect the beliefs of the person.

So how about
"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so"
Adolf Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941

If you read Goebbels and others. The reason why Hitler will remain a Catholic and will order Goebbels to remain one all his life is for strategical and political reasons, not because of some deep attachment to Catholic faith.

 

[ChristineM]

It matters because that'swhat we call "historical context" and not putting a quote in its context is called "quote minning" and doesn't necessarily reflect the beliefs of the person.



If you read Goebbels and others. The reason why Hitler will remain a Catholic and will order Goebbels to remain one all his life is for strategical and political reasons, not because of some deep attachment to Catholic faith.

And on both sides of the argument there are myriad quotes to mine. The quote is recorded and argued in historical context.

Thank you for admitting Hitler remains a Catholic. As for his manipulation of religion, i think i have mentioned that before in this thread.

 

[metis]

Speaking of Quebec, did you ever happen to eat at the L'Atre on the Ile D'Orleans?

It doesn't sound familiar but we ate at several little bistros in Quebec. We drove on the ile but didn't eat there. But as long as I had my old cheese, Bordeaux, and bread, I was more than happy. Plus the coffee I went nuts over.

The only thing I remember is a great Jewish-style deli and some remarkable Bouillabaisse.

Which is one of my favorite dishes. Ever have paella, which is not French I know, but is my favorite dish-- period?

Another favorite destination of ours is Niagara-on-the-Lake, it's theaters, and the surrounding wineries.

I've heard some good stuff about it but have not been there. Is that where they have the Shaw festival by chance? Either way, thanks for name-dropping.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Ever have paella, which is not French I know, but is my favorite dish-- period?

Often. It's one of my favorites as well.

I've heard some good stuff about it but have not been there. Is that where they have the Shaw festival by chance?

Yes. We've attended the Festival a couple of times, the last to see Shaw'e brilliant Man and Superman.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Ever have paella, which is not French I know, but is my favorite dish-- period?

Often. It's one of my favorites as well.

I've heard some good stuff about it but have not been there. Is that where they have the Shaw festival by chance?

Yes. We've attended the Festival a couple of times, the last to see Shaw'e brilliant Man and Superman.

 

[Augustus]

He said it.

What does it matter how we cherry pick where?

The idea isn't to cherry-pick whatever suits your ideological preferences but to put information into its historical context, and compare words to actions.

For example:

Why did he pay lip-service to Christianity before gaining power but become increasingly hostile to it after gaining power (including talk of destroying Christianity in the unpublished 2nd volume of his own memoirs)?

Why were his private pronouncements to his trusted inner circle much more hostile to Christianity than his public propaganda?

Why was the Nazi top brass full of staunch anti-Christians if Hitler was convinced he was doing the Christian God's work? Why did his sycophants who were desperately trying to curry favour feel so comfortable openly discussing their hostility to Christianity if Hitler was the Christian you say he was?

Why were SS members, the archetype for the Nazi view of German masculinity, the least Christian of all military forces? Why were SS officers the least Christian section of the SS?

Why were there no military chaplains in either the SS or the Luftwaffe? Why was there an order in 1942 not to replace any chaplains who died? Why were remaining chaplains told they could only serve on the front lines in the most dangerous theatres of battle? ["In combat," the order stipulated, "the military chaplain will be found in the hottest part of the battle and at the main dressing station, unless—and this will be the exception—he has received a special assignment from divisional command." Chaplains called this the "Uriah Law," after the general in the Bible whom King David sent on a suicide mission so that David could have his wife Bathsheba.]

Why did the plans for rebuilding Berlin after the war include zero churches?

All of these seem very odd for someone convinced he was doing the work of the Christian God...

 

[ChristineM]

The idea isn't to cherry-pick whatever suits your ideological preferences but to put information into its historical context, and compare words to actions.

For example:

Why did he pay lip-service to Christianity before gaining power but become increasingly hostile to it after gaining power (including talk of destroying Christianity in the unpublished 2nd volume of his own memoirs)?

Why were his private pronouncements to his trusted inner circle much more hostile to Christianity than his public propaganda?

Why was the Nazi top brass full of staunch anti-Christians if Hitler was convinced he was doing the Christian God's work? Why did his sycophants who were desperately trying to curry favour feel so comfortable openly discussing their hostility to Christianity if Hitler was the Christian you say he was?

Why were SS members, the archetype for the Nazi view of German masculinity, the least Christian of all military forces? Why were SS officers the least Christian section of the SS?

Why were there no military chaplains in either the SS or the Luftwaffe? Why was there an order in 1942 not to replace any chaplains who died? Why were remaining chaplains told they could only serve on the front lines in the most dangerous theatres of battle? ["In combat," the order stipulated, "the military chaplain will be found in the hottest part of the battle and at the main dressing station, unless—and this will be the exception—he has received a special assignment from divisional command." Chaplains called this the "Uriah Law," after the general in the Bible whom King David sent on a suicide mission so that David could have his wife Bathsheba.]

Why did the plans for rebuilding Berlin after the war include zero churches?

All of these seem very odd for someone convinced he was doing the work of the Christian God...

What a load of codswallop.

Lip service? Your interpretation and deliberate ignorance of the facts

His claimed private pronouncements are third party, after the fact and are not taken with much weight

Wrong, some of Hitler's top brass were anti religion, some weren't

Waffen SS chaplain Kalervo Kurkiala
Kalervo Kurkiala - Wikipedia

Like this
The church described as a 'symbol of evil'

 

[Augustus]

What a load of codswallop.

Lip service? Your interpretation and deliberate ignorance of the facts

His claimed private pronouncements are third party, after the fact and are not taken with much weight

Again this is patently untrue. Some people question the precision of the English translation of Table Talk, although it's not like the German edition doesn't still exist.

Even Richard Steiggman-Gall in the revisionist text "The Holy Reich", which tries to make the case that Christianity was more influential in the Nazi movement than has generally been accepted, utilises Table talk (and even the most revisionist text in recent years doesn't support your claims).

"The evil that's gnawing our vitals is our priests, of both creeds.... The time will come when I'll settle my accounts with them."182 In short, Hitler seemed to have rejected Christianity once and for all: "Pure Christianity - the Christianity of the catacombs - leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics."

Other sources like the Goebbels diaries, are also deemed highly credible. And I've already posted Hitler writing about destroying Christianity in his own book.

Again, the vast majority of historians and experts disagree with you, just like they disagree with your insistence that Stalin was a Christian, just like they disagree with you on Mao being religious, and Pol Pot, just like they disagree with your claim that around 80% of all war deaths were motivated by religion.

See a pattern emerging here? Everyone is ignorant of the 'facts' except you, and the 'facts' always seem to happily align with that which is ideologically convenient for you. A critical thinker might start to consider if their own opinions are being driven more by emotion than evidence.

Wrong, some of Hitler's top brass were anti religion, some weren't

I didn't say they all were, but a very disproportionate amount of them were. Those closest to him were among the most anti-Christian and, despite being massive sycophants, they felt it was fine to mock what you claim to be the driving force in Hitler's life.

Doesn't that strike you as even a little incongruous?

Waffen SS chaplain Kalervo Kurkiala
Kalervo Kurkiala - Wikipedia

That's the Finnish volunteer SS, not the actual German SS that represented "the archetype for the Nazi view of German masculinity".

It's even noted in the article:

Later in 1941, Kurkiala joined the Finnish Volunteer Battalion of the Waffen-SS as its chaplain, succeeding SS-Untersturmfiihrer Ensio Pihkala, who had died. This was an unusual appointment, since the SS ideology was decidedly anti-Christian.

Like this
The church described as a 'symbol of evil'

That Hitler's plans for rebuilding Berlin included no churches isn't negated by you quickly googling an article about plans for Potsdam in 2014

 

[ChristineM]

Again this is patently untrue. Some people question the precision of the English translation of Table Talk,

Most people who know both the original and english translation

182 In short, Hitler seemed to have rejected Christianity once and for all:

See the "seemed"?

Other sources like the Goebbels diaries, are also deemed highly credible.

So are sources from Hitler himself

Again, the vast majority of historians and experts disagree with you, just like they disagree with your insistence that Stalin was a Christian, just like they disagree with you on Mao being religious, and Pol Pot, just like they disagree with your claim that around 80% of all war deaths were motivated by religion.

It is true that most histories on Hitler's religious beliefs are written by those with an agenda to appease some sensibilities

I see the evidence of Stalins religious faith as strong, far stronger than third party, after the fact (and after his death) commentary

Pol Pot was a Theravada Buddhist and never renounced his religion. It takes a lot to turn a Buddhist into a mass murderer.

I have never said Mao was religious, i have said he was but was the only one of that group you list to renounce his religion.

And i have never seen any serious, evidenced dispute to my claim that most deaths as a result of war were in some way the end result of religion.

I didn't say they all were, but a very disproportionate amount of them were.

What you said was

Why was the Nazi top brass full of staunch anti-Christians

That's the Finnish volunteer SS,

And?
What you said was

Why were there no military chaplains in either the SS or the Luftwaffe?

That Hitler's plans for rebuilding Berlin included no churches isn't negated by you quickly googling an article about plans for Potsdam in 2014

Actually it turned up #1 in google when i searched for Hitler's plans for rebuilding Berlin, the search didnt actually turn up any relevant sites

 

[Augustus]

I see the evidence of Stalins religious faith as strong, far stronger than third party, after the fact (and after his death) commentary

Strangely enough, no historians actually agree with you (again).

Even your own source in this thread notes this: "While it is certainly true that Mao and Stalin were unbelievers"

Not surprising given he literally wrote a book on his atheistic philosophy and engaged in one the of the most systematic attempts to destroy Christianity in history (which is somewhat of a tell)

And i have never seen any serious, evidenced dispute to my claim that most deaths as a result of war were in some way the end result of religion.

Strangely enough, no historians actually agree with you (again).

While you've definitely never seen nor offered any evidence for your claim, you have seen plenty of evidenced disputation you just chose to ignore it (again).

While you've been provided with much more, all you need to know to prove your claim of at least 800 million out of 1 billion wrong is add up the total number of deaths from WW1 + 2, Mongol conquests, Napoleonic Wars, Roman Empire wars, and several of the Chinese events (An Lushan, Sino-Japanese War, Chinese Civil Wars, etc).

Even if you assumed 100% of all other wars were religious you would still be very wrong. It's not rocket science

Just go to List of wars and anthropogenic disasters by death toll - Wikipedia and you can see for yourself (even if we include all of the obviously wrong higher numbers, you probably won't even get to 800 million for all war deaths, let alone religious ones).

And?
What you said was

Again, the 'and' is that the Finnish volunteer Waffen-SS is not the SS and so is irrelevant.

Although the majority of the Waffen-SS legionnaires came from ‘Germanic’ countries, they were carefully differentiated from the true ‘Germanic’ volunteers from these countries. They were not considered members of the SS, and so were not subject to the SS’s racial criteria for selection or to the Marriage Order; they were foreign legionnaires in the service of Germany... in the directives that Himmler issued for the new force he emphasized that the legionnaires were not members of the SS; thus, they did not wear SS runes on their uniform, but instead badges symbolizing their ‘membership of their nation’.” Heinrich Himmler - P Longerich

Perhaps Himmler was biased though so doesn't count

Actually it turned up #1 in google when i searched for Hitler's plans for rebuilding Berlin, the search didnt actually turn up any relevant sites

The last 2 points perfectly illustrate why you are always going to be wrong on Hitler, Stalin, religious deaths, etc: facts don't matter when they challenge deeply held prejudices.

If someone was genuinely interested trying to establish what is actually true, they would enjoy being presented with new information which they would critically evaluate in context and use to become better informed. Their instinctive response to new information would not be to dismiss it out of hand and then post links they haven't read and don't understand to pretend they are refuting it.