The benefit to believers in Eph 2:8 !

[e.r.m.]

This is all well and good. But what about those people who say one is saved as soon as they accept Jesus, and that their salvation can never be lost? There are also verses backing up that claim, such as in the Gospel of John, where Jesus says that all that the father has given him are his, and none can be taken from him? That's the issue I'm trying to point out, is that there are different ways of viewing salvation in Christianity, and all sides have passages from the Bible to back up their claims. Does this mean the Bible supports a variety of views? Or that the writers were confused, or possibly adding their own ideas to what they thought was true?

(NIV) John 10:28-29
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. [29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

Just because no one can 'take' them from Him doesn't mean they cannot leave on their own?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

(NIV) John 10:28-29
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. [29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

Just because no one can 'take' them from Him doesn't mean they cannot leave on their own?

Doesn't this seem to present a paradox though? I see what you're saying though. But, if you can voluntarily walk away, isn't this the same as someone taking it away, even if it's yourself?

 

[obi one]

I find it weird how the Bible supports both the "once saved, always saved" idea, and the idea that one can lose their salvation. I also find it weird how the Bible supports both the idea that salvation is a one time event, and it's an ongoing process. Weird.

You have to keep in mind the source of the New Testament writings (Roman church), and how Yeshua foretold of false prophets (Mt 7:15), and seed of the evil one mixing with the good seed (Mt 13:37-38). And how stumbling blocks (Mt 18:7) would come that cause the children of heaven to stumble, but woe to those through who the stumbling blocks came.
One would be wise to follow Proverbs 20:25, in which it is stated that "It is a snare for a man to say rashly, "It is holy" and after the fows to make inquiry."
There is good in the bible, but one must winnow the wheat from the chaff.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

You have to keep in mind the source of the New Testament writings (Roman church), and how Yeshua foretold of false prophets (Mt 7:15), and seed of the evil one mixing with the good seed (Mt 13:37-38). And how stumbling blocks (Mt 18:7) would come that cause the children of heaven to stumble, but woe to those through who the stumbling blocks came.
One would be wise to follow Proverbs 20:25, in which it is stated that "It is a snare for a man to say rashly, "It is holy" and after the fows to make inquiry."
There is good in the bible, but one must winnow the wheat from the chaff.

So are you saying not everything in the Bible is to be trusted?

 

[e.r.m.]

Doesn't this seem to present a paradox though? I see what you're saying though. But, if you can voluntarily walk away, isn't this the same as someone taking it away, even if it's yourself?

That's would be the logical question, but apparently not, since Jesus said:
(NIV) Matthew 24:10-13
At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, [11] and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. [12] Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, [13] but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

 

[james2ko]

Doesn't this seem to present a paradox though? I see what you're saying though. But, if you can voluntarily walk away, isn't this the same as someone taking it away, even if it's yourself?

Christ refers to a future state. He refers to those who have attained eternal life:

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [one or thing] man pluck them out of my hand. (The term "man" is not in the original Greek.)
​

This is evidenced by the main verb in the passage "pluck" which is in the future, active, indicative tense. This indicates the action-the inability for anyone, even yourself, to pluck- has yet to occur.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

That's would be the logical question, but apparently not, since Jesus said:
(NIV) Matthew 24:10-13
At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, [11] and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. [12] Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, [13] but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

So you're saying right before/during the end times, it will be possible to lose your faith/fall from grace, but that wasn't necessarily the case during Jesus time/the early church?

Christ refers to a future state. He refers to those who have attained eternal life:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [one or thing] man pluck them out of my hand. (The term "man" is not in the original Greek.)
This is evidenced by the main verb in the passage "pluck" which is in the future, active, indicative tense. This indicates the action-the inability for anyone, even yourself, to pluck- has yet to occur.

This seems to suggest the same thing that e r.m. said. And I'll ask you the same question: does this mean that, sometime during the future (like, before/during the end times) it will be possible to fall from grace, but it wasn't exactly the case during Jesus' time or the early church?

 

[james2ko]

This seems to suggest the same thing that e r.m. said.

Not really. ERM was referring to those believers still in the flesh. In John 10:28, Christ describes a future state of believers, after their transformation to spirit-not before. In that immortal state, nothing or no one will be able pluck them from His hand.

And I'll ask you the same question: does this mean that, sometime during the future (like, before/during the end times) it will be possible to fall from grace, but it wasn't exactly the case during Jesus' time or the early church?

I'm assuming you are referring to my reply in post#6. Yes this was also the case during Jesus' ministry, but not exclusively, as DanP suggested. As suggested in post #6, the tense of the verb indicates the unpardonable sin or fall from grace, as you describe it, would also apply in the future to fleshly, believers living now and those in the millennium. However, it would not apply to those resurrected to immortality at Christ's return.

 

[e.r.m.]

So you're saying right before/during the end times, it will be possible to lose your faith/fall from grace, but that wasn't necessarily the case during Jesus time/the early church?

Doesn't have to be just right before the end times.
Matthew 11:6
Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me."
Luke 14:28-30
"Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? [29] For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, [30] saying, `This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.'
Romans 11:22
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
2 Peter 2:21-22
It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. [22] Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."
Hebrews 3:12
See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.

P.S. - No comment on James2ko, I trust him, but don't understand exactly .

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Christ refers to a future state. He refers to those who have attained eternal life:

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [one or thing] man pluck them out of my hand. (The term "man" is not in the original Greek.)
​

This is evidenced by the main verb in the passage "pluck" which is in the future, active, indicative tense. This indicates the action-the inability for anyone, even yourself, to pluck- has yet to occur.

Why are you including 'yourself' or 'oneself' since definitely Hebrews [6vs4-6] mentions one can fall away. One can remove themselves [pluck or snatch themselves away] such as Paul's concern about ending up as a castaway.
-1st Cor. 9v27

 

[Renji]

Hi to all , and this Op will rage on through all time , until the Departure/Rapture , and this is OSAS .

This is just one of many proof of OSAS !!

Eph 2:8 reads , For by grace you are Having Been Saved through faith , and it is the Gift of God .

#1 , Having Been Saved , is in the Greek Perfect tense , passive voice and a Participle .

#2 , The Greek word SOZO/SAVED , means Past Action which points to the past action of when you were saved ,

#3 , The other part of the Perfect tense is the Continuing part and is always in the Present tense and continues to your death or Rapture .

#4 , The Passive voice means that God did the saving and NOT you !!

#5 , The Participle , is why the translation is , " having been saved " !!

This then means OSAS , forever , dan p

According to Paul: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off"

 

[e.r.m.]

According to Paul: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off"

Ditto.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Why are you including 'yourself' or 'oneself' since definitely Hebrews [6vs4-6] mentions one can fall away. One can remove themselves [pluck or snatch themselves away] such as Paul's concern about ending up as a castaway.
-1st Cor. 9v27

Was hoping for a reply to the ^above^ in connection to John 10v28.

Verse 29 Jesus mentions his [my] Father which, or who, gave 'them'....
The 'them' in verse 28 would be 'sheep' of verse 27.
At John [17v12] Jesus again mentions those that God gave him.
If no one could snatch or pluck oneself away, then why would Jesus make the exception by saying that none of them [apostles] is lost [but or except] the 'son of perdition' [destruction] who proved to be the fallen away Judas.

-Mark 14v21

 

[james2ko]

Why are you including 'yourself' or 'oneself' since definitely Hebrews [6vs4-6] mentions one can fall away. One can remove themselves [pluck or snatch themselves away] such as Paul's concern about ending up as a castaway.
-1st Cor. 9v27

No one can fall away, be plucked, or snatched away, once they are transformed to spirit. The tense in John 10:28 refers to this future state. This was indicated in my reply here.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If the tense is future state then those transformed of Hebrews [6vs4-6] could not be plucked or snatched away as they were once in God's hand.

Judas [as son of destruction John 17v12] would have not been able to remove himself as he did.

God gives or God gave as long as faithful. That is why those of Revelation [2v10] do not receive an earlier crown of life. They must be faithful unto death [die proven faithful] before receiving the crown of life. Once resurrected to heaven they receive the crown of life, or immortal life in the heavens, at that time, not before going to heaven.

But, No man on earth can take away their faithfulness, just as No man on earth can pluck or snatch one out of God's hand. The unfaithful remove themselves while alive on earth.

 

[james2ko]

If the tense is future state then those transformed of Hebrews [6vs4-6] could not be plucked or snatched away as they were once in God's hand.

Judas [as son of destruction John 17v12] would have not been able to remove himself as he did.

God gives or God gave as long as faithful. That is why those of Revelation [2v10] do not receive an earlier crown of life. They must be faithful unto death [die proven faithful] before receiving the crown of life. Once resurrected to heaven they receive the crown of life, or immortal life in the heavens, at that time, not before going to heaven.

But, No man on earth can take away their faithfulness, just as No man on earth can pluck or snatch one out of God's hand. The unfaithful remove themselves while alive on earth.

As long as a believer remains in the flesh, they are susceptible to being plucked or snatched by anyone including themselves. But once a believer is resurrected to eternal life, no one will be able snatch or pluck them-not even themselves. John 10:28 refers to all those after they are raised to eternal life and have attained ultimate salvation, which is still yet future.

 

[e.r.m.]

As long as a believer remains in the flesh, they are susceptible to being plucked or snatched by anyone including themselves. But once a believer is resurrected to eternal life, no one will be able snatch or pluck them-not even themselves. John 10:28 refers to all those after they are raised to eternal life and have attained ultimate salvation, which is still yet future.

I agree with this much.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

As long as a believer remains in the flesh, they are susceptible to being plucked or snatched by anyone including themselves. But once a believer is resurrected to eternal life, no one will be able snatch or pluck them-not even themselves. John 10:28 refers to all those after they are raised to eternal life and have attained ultimate salvation, which is still yet future.

If susceptible only in the flesh to being removed by 'anyone' including self, then, why would Jesus say in verse 29 'no man' [no one] can remove them ?
So, the 'any man' of verse 28 is still that 'no man' or 'no one' can remove oneself except for the person himself.

Doesn't John [6 vs39,40,44] already seem to indicate that it is God's will that of all whom God has given to Jesus that Jesus should loose none.....[loose none in the flesh], then Jesus goes on to mention the resurrection after not loosing in the flesh.

Yes, after gaining immortality in the heavens, or everlasting life on earth, No one will be lost because by that future time even our last enemy 'death' will be brought to nothing when Jesus hands back the kingdom to his Father.
Since there will be 'No more death' that means no more dying which of course would be future ultimate salvation.
On earth, the 'near future salvation' would be that of Revelation 7v14 of coming out [alive] out of the great tribulation of Matthew 24v21.

-1st Corinthians 15 vs24-28; Rev. 21v4

 

[james2ko]

If susceptible only in the flesh to being removed by 'anyone' including self, then, why would Jesus say in verse 29 'no man' [no one] can remove them ? So, the 'any man' of verse 28 is still that 'no man' or 'no one' can remove oneself except for the person himself.

The word "man" is missing from the original Greek. So the proper rendering for this verse, referring to those who have been transformed to spirit, would be "no one"--no angel or other spirit beings would be able to snatch or pluck them from the Father's hand.

Doesn't John [6 vs39,40,44] already seem to indicate that it is God's will that of all whom God has given to Jesus that Jesus should loose none.....[loose none in the flesh], then Jesus goes on to mention the resurrection after not loosing in the flesh.

Yet In verse 70 and 71 of the same chapter, Christ stated He also "chose" and subsequently lost Judas:

Joh 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.​

Either Christ contradicted Himself or Judas allowed himself to be plucked away.

Yes, after gaining immortality in the heavens, or everlasting life on earth, No one will be lost because by that future time even our last enemy 'death' will be brought to nothing when Jesus hands back the kingdom to his Father. Since there will be 'No more death' that means no more dying which of course would be future ultimate salvation.On earth, the 'near future salvation' would be that of Revelation 7v14 of coming out [alive] out of the great tribulation of Matthew 24v21. -1st Corinthians 15 vs24-28; Rev. 21v4

May God speed that day!

 

[miss interpret]

Hi to all , and this Op will rage on through all time , until the Departure/Rapture , and this is OSAS .

This is just one of many proof of OSAS !!

Eph 2:8 reads , For by grace you are Having Been Saved through faith , and it is the Gift of God .

#1 , Having Been Saved , is in the Greek Perfect tense , passive voice and a Participle .

#2 , The Greek word SOZO/SAVED , means Past Action which points to the past action of when you were saved ,

#3 , The other part of the Perfect tense is the Continuing part and is always in the Present tense and continues to your death or Rapture .

#4 , The Passive voice means that God did the saving and NOT you !!

#5 , The Participle , is why the translation is , " having been saved " !!

This then means OSAS , forever , dan p

brilliant thread dan p loving it.I like for there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.