• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Best Argument Against the Existence of God

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I agree that it is the musings of men, that is how I also see it
I am fine that you see it as "just the musings of men", but I would omit "just", as it can be easily interpreted as "belittling".

I don't see how that is "belittling".
The word "just" serves a clear purpose. It means that it's humans that conjured up those ideas and that there was no third party involved.

You could replace the word "just" with "only" in that sentence.

I agree not with "thus not a place to learn about God" ... for me "musings" are a way to start learning about God

That seems contradictory.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I strongly disagree with this. And I can't even understand that someone would claim such a thing
Not all scientific texts can be "put on par with every other text written by humans ever".

It can in the context that I am saying this.
And that context is that the ideas put forward by humans (be it scientific ideas or fictionaly stories), are brought forward by those humans, and not planted in those humans' brains by external non-human entities.

And the same applies to spiritual texts.

Your words only indicates that you do not value spirituality nor take it serious
People who don't take others serious block any real communication
And that is fine with me, but then why start replying

If people do not take spirituality serious then I see no point in replying to them, as they are the ones blocking communication to start with

This has nothing to do with spirituality and everything with where ideas originate.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
That is a very important question IMO.
If God is defined as Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent then at least we can say the mistakes probably don't come from God
Also, knowing that humans are not all these Omnis and are known for making errors it makes sense to attribute the errors to humans
Of course God could put in errors on purpose (I would do if I were God) just to test humans if they believe blind or use their common sense

So, to filter out the mistakes in the scriptures we need to have a sharp buddhi (intellect, common sense, brain etc)

So if it's wrong, it is human. But it could still be god doing it on purpose.
And if it's right, it is from god. But it could still be humans simply getting it right.

In other words, you have no reliable method to disguinguish that which is from humans and that which is from gods.

It could all be from gods, including the mistakes.
And it could all be from humans, including the things that are correct.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Spirituality is about personal improvement.
Asking others to prove things has nothing to do with Spirituality
You have to study and practise yourself, to achieve anything, whether in Science or in Spirituality

Not at all in science.
I don't need to understand the inner workings of my computer, nore the underlying theories that make that technology possible, to operate it or even build my own rig from individual parts.

Having said that, everything in science is independently verifiable in objective ways.
The fact that (what you call) "spirituality" is a subject personal notion, is a major red flag for me when it comes to objective accuracy.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
A better argument is that all those people who believe in gods can't agree about anything about their gods
Well, actually, quite a lot is commonly accepted by a large number of people. But that's not some identical understanding in a more total way, as such isn't possible to begin with, since every human being that exists has a totally unique mind and understanding.

Many people can agree that a car is 'red', and in like manner there are some key things about God many feel confident have been revealed accurately, thus the 'scripture'. It's good to realize though that the scripture itself says we only know some things about Him, because His thoughts are quite above our mortal thoughts generally (see below). Ergo, we both know some widely accepted things about God, and also largely can't know Him fully. Both. Much or reality is that way! (e.g., what is 'dark matter'? why is the Higgs Boson mass so unnatural looking? and so on. For that matter, a person can't even really know another person perfectly either. They only have conceptions).

Isaiah 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.
Isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts."
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
It's already stated clearly in the Bible that no one can stay close enough to know God completely. Only Moses managed to have a face-to-face dialogue and God shows "who He is" through Jesus as His image. However all prophets portrayed more or less the same God who has a series of covenants for the salvation of humans.

On the other hand, what do you want exactly from God? You want Him to show up? He won't as it's against His own covenant which says that humans need to be saved by faith, and faith alone. By Law He can only show up to His chosen eyewitnesses and for the testimonies to convey among humans.

So exactly do you want if God is true?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
My common sense tells me that the writings of humans are the musings of humans and what is inside their heads. My common sense tells me that it's not the result of an invisible, undetectable, supernatural and magical being who "communicates" these musings through telepathy or dreams or visions or whatever.

How do you test your common sense? Is there a scientific method?

What if your commonsense is not telling you the reality? Can you falsify it?
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
The most convincing argument against the existence of God (excluding deistic god concepts) that I can think of is the existence of pastors, priests, popes, scribes, and missionaries. No one learns about God directly from God, but instead, it has to come through intermediaries.

So who taught the first priest?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Well, actually, quite a lot is commonly accepted by a large number of people.
Actually, pretty much nothing can be agreed upon by even a minority. We had threads here and on other forums that tried to define what a god is. All failed. Believers can't even agree whether there is only one or many, how much, if ever, it interferes with reality, if it is real, you name it.
Those aren't minor details, those are diametrical opposites.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
One must first acknowledge the existance of X before one can hate X.
So your argument makes no sense.

It's one thing to be convinced that X exists. It is quite another to then love or hate / accept or reject X.


At this point, we are only discussing wheter X exists or not and if there is good evidence to think one or the other. Only once we establish / agree that X exists, can we start exploring wheter or not that entity is worthy of being respected / loved / followed / whatever. And then we get into the teritorry of personal opinion and judgement calls.

But the existance of X is not a matter of personal opinion.

Relevant words in red (in the quote)

Wrong we are discussing whether if the argument in the OP is a good argument against the existence of God or not.

My response would be. Yes it’s a good argument, but it´s far from conclusive, because:

A) It is based on the assumption that God Should do what one personally would have desired / expected from God

B) Perhaps if God communicates with us directly and unambiguously there would be more hate and repulsion towards God. I mentioned the bible as an example (there are many places in the bible where God making his existence obvious resulted in to more repulsion.)

Is there anything that you would disagree with?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
How do you test your common sense? Is there a scientific method?

Common sense deals with common knowledge of earthly matters, in rather practical terms.
It is not a thing that is tested, because it is literally based on already tested things and things that are known.

So in the context I used it, it is the result of having countless examples of people writing down their own religious ideas and having zero examples of people writing down ideas that were "planted" in their heads by non-human third party sources - let alone "magical" / "supernatural" sources.

What if your commonsense is not telling you the reality? Can you falsify it?

Yes.

Before Einstein, it was common sense that the flow of time is experienced the same way by everyone at all times under all conditions.

After Einstein, it became common sense that the experience of the flow of time is relative to the observer.
 
Last edited:

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Relevant words in red (in the quote)

Wrong we are discussing whether if the argument in the OP is a good argument against the existence of God or not.

My response would be. Yes it’s a good argument, but it´s far from conclusive, because:

Well, it's kind of hard to have a conclusive argument for OR against a thing that is literally unfalsiable......

A) It is based on the assumption that God Should do what one personally would have desired / expected from God

I disagree. It is rather based on the idea that this God wants to be followed. It wouldn't be reasonable to demand to be followed without actually making your existance known first.

Sure, god could be unreasonable. But it seems to me that religions in general, and abrahamic religions in particular, don't really define their god as being unreasonable... Right?

What kind of just god would reward gullibility and punish rationality?
That seems a contradiction in terms.

B) Perhaps if God communicates with us directly and unambiguously there would be more hate and repulsion towards God.

Why would that be the case? Is he an a-hole?

I mentioned the bible as an example (there are many places in the bible where God making his existence obvious resulted in to more repulsion.)

Yeah well... to me, that is another piece of evidence that it is BS as that makes no sense to me at all - especially not if this god is in fact actually the benevolent, loving, mercifull and just god as he is claimed to be.

I'ld also add that IF it is true that it would result in "more repulsion and hate"... I think it's safe to say that people who have that reaction wouldn't be good christians otherwise anyway. So it's not like he'll lose any followers over that.

It makes no sense to say that someone would be a good god-loving christian when he has to believe on "faith" and that he would be a god-hating rebelious believer when he has conclusive evidence that god exists.
 
Last edited:

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Who taught Ron Hubbard?
Who taught Mohammed?
Who taught Joseph Smith?


Common sense tells me that they either made it up or that they had a bit too much imagination.

The OP is trying to make the case,, "No one learns about God directly from God, but instead, it has to come through intermediaries", obviously, as you pointed out, it isn't necessary for the idea of God to be taught or passed down from one person to another. Other possible explanations are that an individual acting alone can "make it up" without any outside help

Of course, with all if the examples you give, you can just say that they didn't come up with the concept, they just expanded on it or came up with a new spin or two, but considering that, logically, someone would have had to come up with the idea first, and further considering that the idea seems to have occurred to several people acting independently of each other (the idea of deity seems to be a universal development across cultures), it pretty much destroys the OPs assertion that the God idea has to be taught in order to exist.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Common sense deals with common knowledge of earthly matters, in rather practical terms.
It is not a thing that is tested, because it is literally based on already tested things and things that are known.

So in the context I used it, it is the result of having countless examples of people writing down their own religious ideas and having zero examples of people writing down ideas that were "planted" in their heads by non-human third party sources - let alone "magical" / "supernatural" sources.

How do you know its zero examples? Are you making that statement with no evidence or have you analyzed everything?

When you said already tested, can you give the list of such writings, the criteria, testing methodology, and results.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I disagree. It is rather based on the idea that this God wants to be followed. It wouldn't be reasonable to demand to be followed without actually making your existance known first.

God makes his existance clear for anyone seeking with an open mind and an open hart.

Sure if God simply talks directly and appears in the middle of the sky he would convince even close minded atheists.

But there is no warranty that a grater number of individuals would actually be interested in having a relationship with God. It is your burden to show otherwise


Yeah well... to me, that is another piece of evidence that it is BS as that makes no sense to me at all - especially not if this god is in fact actually the benevolent, loving, mercifull and just god as he is claimed to be.

I'ld also add that IF it is true that it would result in "more repulsion and hate"... I think it's safe to say that people who have that reaction wouldn't be good christians otherwise anyway. So it's not like he'll lose any followers over that.

It makes no sense to say that someone would be a good god-loving christian when he has to believe on "faith" and that he would be a god-hating rebelious believer when he has conclusive evidence that god exists.

Well many atheist openly admit that they wouldn't become Christian even if Christianity where true....
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Not really sure what you are trying to say here.
Who lives north of the north pole?
The fact of the matter is, that it might not be a sensible question. Given what we know today about space-time, it actually isn't a sensible question and it is rather analogous to asking about what you'll find north of the north pole.
I'm not going to pretend that my puny human mind can comprehend how it's not a sensible question. Or what it means for time to "not exist". I can't for the life of me fathom such atemporal conditions.
But the fact remains.... "before" is a temporal concept. A concept that necessarily doesn't make sense in atemporal context.
All data we currently have, suggests it is.
Time is an inherent part of the space-time fabric, which is the universe.



If you say so. Fact remains that it's a nonsesical notion.
You would have to assume a larger, secondary or external, space-time which brings forward our space-time for this notion to make sense.

We human beings have brains that didn't evolve to comprehend atemporal conditions. Us beings who live in the scope of classical physics where we only have to deal with medium masses traveling at medium speeds within a space-time continuum, have evolved to avoid being eaten by lions, not to comprehend quantum mechanics - to borrow from something Laurence Krauss likes to say.
This stuff simply doesn't "feel right" to us. These are conditions that are completely alien to us. Even our language is entirely geared towards living in a space-time at that classical level of physics. This is why even physicists will talk about "before the universe" - eventhough they don't necessarily mean an actual temporal "before". It's just that even our language isn't capable of talking about such conditions without using temporal terms. That's how deeply engrained this stuff is in our minds.
I like the example that Brian Green once made in some even concerning this kind of stuff. It was about the counter intuitiveness of quantum physics, but it's the same principle me thinks...
He was talking about how he would love that quantum physics came as natural to us as classical physics... And he gave the example of throwing a small bottle of water at someone from a couple of meters away.
The person to which it is being thrown can very naturally figure out in a split second where his hand needs to be to catch said bottle. Truelly in a split second. In the blink of an eye, that person can intuitively figure out where the bottle is going to end up based on the speed at wich it travels, an estimation of the weight of the bottle and figure out the trajectory it will follow.

If you would want to calculate it with math, it will take you far far longer then a split second to figure it out. In fact, most people won't even be able to do that math and wouldn't have a clue on how to calculate the exact trajectory the bottle will take. Yet, our brains intuitively figure it out in the blink of an eye.

Imagine if you could do the same with quantum particles. Ever seen the quantum physics math to try and figure out where a certain particle is at any given time? Imagine if you could figure that out as intuitively as you can with that thrown bottle.....

The fact is that we don't live on the level of the quantum world. Our brains didn't evolve to comprehend that world.

The same goes for the flow of time. This is also why it took an Einstein to figure out relativity. Because as far as our brain is concerned, the intuitive flow of time is that it is a constant and the same everywhere for everyone at all times.

All this together... it seems quite safe to conclude that however the universe originated, and whatever processes make that happen... it is bound to be something incredibly weird, strange and counter-intuitive.

Enjoyed this. It's all super interesting.
Can't add anything to it until we know what time is - frankly i think it's the most interesting
of all physical properties - it can even be removed from many physics equations and stuff
still happens.
And if we CAN travel back does that mean the Roman Empire is "out there" somwhere?
I put the International Space Station app on my iPhone. Last week we watched the screen
to see the ISS crossing Europe, Russia, SE Asia and then minutes later it was RISING,
"straight up" from the NW, coming over the Kimberleys northern Aust.. All science and nature
is amazing.
If you trip and spill a bucket of water you have a fair idea of what will happen - you learned
the "physics" of this as a stumbling child.
 
Top