The Best Guide

[osgart]

That does not answer the question of how persons acquire this "good conscience".

A good conscience stands to reason. It is a sense of fairness. There are facts of conscience that one could ignore, be blind to, or realize. Facts of conscience not only benefit survival, and promote the general welfare, they also make life worthwhile, and prevent chaos and total anarchy which destroys life.

A person that seeks honesty and love will most certainly find it. Find it by way of reason as well.

 

[nPeace]

A good conscience stands to reason. It is a sense of fairness. There are facts of conscience that one could ignore, be blind to, or realize. Facts of conscience not only benefit survival, and promote the general welfare, they also make life worthwhile, and prevent chaos and total anarchy which destroys life.

So, we owe our survival, to a few people?
It seems a lot of people aren't hopeful toward humanity preventing chaos, and destruction of life.

A person that seeks honesty and love will most certainly find it. Find it by way of reason as well.

It can be found then. Where does one search? Where does one find it?
Would not searching for honesty and love require a "good conscience"?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

No one is in position to judge every individual's conscience. Clearly some people do. Without empathy and caring about trustworthiness and deservingness it's impossible to acquire it. Psychopaths have no empathy.
I think many people have good conscience whether they know it or not. I think many people have poor conscience as well. Fewer people have no conscience or worse.
I'm not a moral relativist which I consider to be blind to good and evil. Nor is morality a set of preferences. Murder is murder, abuse is abuse. Virtues are meanings of importance. These things never change. People should know this, and many times they don't.

Unless damaged in some way, we all come equipped with an in-born conscience.
By ignoring one's conscience one can become hardened calloused like flesh seared by a hot branding iron: unfeeling.
Since we can't be the judge by imputing motives (good or bad) to others we need standards to go by.
I find there is a difference between: killing, murder(abuse) and an execution for the sake of justice.

 

[osgart]

So, we owe our survival, to a few people?
It seems a lot of people aren't hopeful toward humanity preventing chaos, and destruction of life.


It can be found then. Where does one search? Where does one find it?
Would not searching for honesty and love require a "good conscience"?

The desire for honesty and love leads to good conscience, or good conscience leads to honesty and love; either way. At first though the desire is what leads to good conscience. I'm always surprised when people don't recognize what good conscience is.

I'm very fortunate to live in America despite with all its corruption. There's no guarantees of freedom. It could have been a world full of Nazis at one time. So life is no guided tour for anyone. It takes people to make life happen here on earth. Nature is indifferent to life. Not everyone gets a fair chance.

 

[osgart]

Unless damaged in some way, we all come equipped with an in-born conscience.
By ignoring one's conscience one can become hardened calloused like flesh seared by a hot branding iron: unfeeling.
Since we can't be the judge by imputing motives (good or bad) to others we need standards to go by.
I find there is a difference between: killing, murder(abuse) and an execution for the sake of justice.

Conscience is discovered from within, and by observing relationships, and actions. And then realizing the possible motives and intentions that arise.

I see that murder and killing to defend against murder are two different things.

 

[icehorse]

I know a lot of intelligent people... a lot. Scientists physicians. etc.
They are honest people.
They use sciences, reason, education. They are neither gullible, nor obtuse.

...and yes, they do not see the things in the Bible, you have interpreted.

As a special favor to you, I did a few searches on the internet:

- "slavery in the bible" - yields many passages that condone slavery
- as for filicide, please explain the story of Abraham and Isaac?
- "was Jesus a scapegoat" - yields many articles in support of this interpretation

With all that said, I understand that in the conscious mind of the apologist, it's easy and natural to ignore those passages, or to try to discredit them in some way.

BUT!!! Once again, we ignore our subconscious brains at our peril ! The science is quite clear, propaganda working at the subconscious level is a powerful force!

 

[icehorse]

Science the ' how' to do it, the Bible is ' should we do it ? '

I would say that the bible frequently gives horrific advice concerning "should we do it". I would say that when it was written, the advice might have been "the state of the art", but morals and ethics have evolved significantly since then, and people who defend the bible have been forced, usually grudgingly, to try to keep up.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Interesting comment 'until a Civil War breaks out' ( or I wonder what Russia has in mind with its balloons _______)
Yes, religions got it wrong so long ago (ancient Babylon for starters) then, once 1st-century Christianity ended due to apostasy got it wrong oh so long ago, 2,000 years ago - Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30
None of which makes the Bible as wrong, but makes what is written at 1 Timothy 4:1-4 as right

Well, apart from the conflict that often occurs between religious believers, I suppose my other main gripe is as to them not changing as much as they might as we progress as a species, especially when so many simply rely on the written word.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Makes one wonder, where that "respectfulness" toward all came from. Where do you think it came from?
I should ask though, what you mean by respectfulness though, because that varies from person to person.

For example, some think it is disrespectful to correct someone who is "going down a wrong path".
Some even think that they should "mind their own business", and so if someone wants to kill themselve, it would be disrespectful to try to intervene.

I suspect much of the respect just comes from our social bonding as a species, and much like so many other species. The religions mainly put it into words and gave it some form probably. Given that the Golden Rule is much like the tit-for-tat behaviour that occurs in so many non-human species too as to how to behave when we/they have to negotiate in groups and between groups.

 

[nPeace]

The desire for honesty and love leads to good conscience, or good conscience leads to honesty and love; either way. At first though the desire is what leads to good conscience.

Sounds to me like you are grappling with that as well.
If it is a desire that leads to good conscience, honesty, and love, it sure looks like we need help getting there, because people are coming up short... for the most part.
Where do you think we can find that help?

I'm always surprised when people don't recognize what good conscience is.

You mean someone has actually said to you, they do not know what good conscience is? How many persons?
Don't look at me. I didn't even hint that I don't know.

I'm very fortunate to live in America despite with all its corruption. There's no guarantees of freedom. It could have been a world full of Nazis at one time. So life is no guided tour for anyone.

You can say that again.
How much better to learn from those who went through it... before us.

It takes people to make life happen here on earth. Nature is indifferent to life. Not everyone gets a fair chance.

True.
How, good it would be, if everyone was guided by wisdom. How much better that life would be.

 

[nPeace]

Conscience is discovered from within, and by observing relationships, and actions. And then realizing the possible motives and intentions that arise.

I see that murder and killing to defend against murder are two different things.

Okay, so you believe conscience is there, within us, but we have only to discover it. Am I reading you correctly?

 

[nPeace]

As a special favor to you, I did a few searches on the internet:

- "slavery in the bible" - yields many passages that condone slavery
- as for filicide, please explain the story of Abraham and Isaac?
- "was Jesus a scapegoat" - yields many articles in support of this interpretation

With all that said, I understand that in the conscious mind of the apologist, it's easy and natural to ignore those passages, or to try to discredit them in some way.

BUT!!! Once again, we ignore our subconscious brains at our peril ! The science is quite clear, propaganda working at the subconscious level is a powerful force!

How is it a favor to me, may I ask?
I'm not one of those people who have a Bible sitting on the shelf catching dust.

I can explain those things quite well, and have, but for one who has already made of their mind that persons with answers to their excuses, are simply dishonest, it would only be a fruitless exercise.... as is already evident by the repeated follow ups of potential apologetics to your apologetics.

I've also mentioned before why we know those apologetics against the Bible are only excuses.
When someone can only pick out 0.0000000000000001% out of anything, to try to make a case for their arguments against something, and when you look at what they have, there are things for which they don't have full details for - for example, the why of something, you can be sure the person has nothing against the 99.9999999999999999% they cannot find any fault with.

That's apologetics.
I won't say anything about the conscience. I leave that to persons. I've proven the heart is treacherous, as recorded by the prophet Jeremiah.

 

[Sand Dancer]

True.


Some people once thought that there were things in the Bible, they could not excuse, until they got all the facts.
They came to realize, humbly, that something can appear "lousy", when you scratch the surface.
That does not change, unless one digs below the surface, and really get all the details.

I understand these persons.
I know some of them personally.

I have studied and I understand it pretty much. The multitude of authors doesn't give it a cohesive whole.

 

[osgart]

Okay, so you believe conscience is there, within us, but we have only to discover it. Am I reading you correctly?

You need to discover within, plus observe relationships to form conscience. I don't think it's pre known. Its discovered and reasoned through.

 

[icehorse]

I can explain those things quite well, and have, but for one who has already made of their mind that persons with answers to their excuses, are simply dishonest, it would only be a fruitless exercise.... as is already evident by the repeated follow ups of potential apologetics to your apologetics.

I believe I have answered your questions very directly. That I have taken the time to understand what you're saying and responding accordingly.

With that said, can you summarize the points I've made to you? Because it seems like you're ignoring my claims altogether?

So once again (for maybe the third or fourth time?), I have never said that you cannot use your conscious brain to defend the bible. I have heard religious people defend their scripture countless times. I know you can do that. You can talk about historical context or this or that. Been there, heard that.

But my claims are different, and I do not believe you have even attempted to answer them.

When someone can only pick out 0.0000000000000001% out of anything, to try to make a case for their arguments against something, and when you look at what they have, there are things for which they don't have full details for - for example, the why of something, you can be sure the person has nothing against the 99.9999999999999999% they cannot find any fault with.

Well there are several errors in this paragraph.

The first is that people have found hundreds - if not thousands - of inconsistencies and/or moral issues in the bible. I never claimed to have given you the entire list, just a few examples. So your math is not honest.

Second, your claim is that the book is perfect. That it singlehandedly is better than all the thousands of other books combined. This is your claim.

For your claim to be true, your book needs to be infallible. Or pretty darned close to infallible. So all a critic like me has to do is find a few faults, to successfully attack your claims of biblical perfection. YOU are the one who is making GRAND CLAIMS in this discussion, the burden of proof is on you

 

[nPeace]

Well, apart from the conflict that often occurs between religious believers, I suppose my other main gripe is as to them not changing as much as they might as we progress as a species, especially when so many simply rely on the written word.

Conflicts exist between everyone. Obviously there is a reason for that, although to most, the reason is not obvious.
What do you suppose is the reason for conflicts among scientists, and why are those not given the same attention, as the conflicts in religion.
Should a system that depends on empirical knowledge, not be one expected to be practically conflict free.

If one relies on principles to guide them, change is out of the question. Why? A principle is a fundamental truth. It doesn't change. It's an immovable foundation upon which everything else is built - laws, regulations, statutes, judgments...

This is the reason the instructions in the Bible are timeless, and why those who live by these are wise.
I'm sure if all the world were living by the Bible's guidance, the world's problems would be reversed.

Greed would end, solving problems like poverty and diseases. Honesty would be the only policy, ending economic loss, and distrust.
Jealousy would end, and infidelity would not exist.
Crime... including child exploitation and rape would not exist...

The only things rhat would not end, would be old age, sickness, and death, but maybe people would live longer, and for sure, be healthier - less heart problems, if any.

Oh, and hurricanes and earthquakes would still be around, but with everyone taking care of the environment, they would behave less violently.

So, clearly, the benefits of sticking to Bible standards are tremendous.
It would eliminate some of the junk science is used for.
Did you see North Korea's weapons? Well, that's not half the US', but consider the trillions of dollars being spent to accumulate junk on the earth... rather than feed and care for people's needs.
Not to mention, the chemicals from these, which contribute to the earth ecological health issues.

We cannot blame the written word for people who go contrary to it, though claiming to use it. Just as we cannot blame science for what people choose to use it for.

 

[nPeace]

I suspect much of the respect just comes from our social bonding as a species, and much like so many other species.

That doesn't appear to be evident.
If that were so, people would be getting better, not worst. More love would be shown. Not less.
However, more and more people are agreeing they are seeing people behave towards others in a worst way, and there is less love shown.

Children have less respect for parents, and those in authority, and adults have a serious problem with showing respect for children - abusing them physically, verbally, and sexually.

Why, husbands and wives are showing less respect for each other.
So clearly, social bonding isn't producing respect.
It seems the expression "Familiarity breeds contempt", is true in this case.

The religions mainly put it into words and gave it some form probably. Given that the Golden Rule is much like the tit-for-tat behaviour that occurs in so many non-human species too as to how to behave when we/they have to negotiate in groups and between groups.

The Golden rule is misunderstood, and misapplied by many people.
"Do to others what you would like others to do to you" is what it is.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I would say that the bible frequently gives horrific advice concerning "should we do it". I would say that when it was written, the advice might have been "the state of the art", but morals and ethics have evolved significantly since then, and people who defend the bible have been forced, usually grudgingly, to try to keep up.

Horrific advice such as Jesus' New Commandment to love others as he loved others (us) - John 13:34-35
I realize that is Not what you are referring to.
Yes, a person's morals, ethics and values too have evolved or de-volved as the case may be.
Yes, count the cost - Luke 14:26-27 - calculate the cost - Luke 14:28-33.
Nominal Christians do Not do that.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.........The Golden rule is misunderstood, and misapplied by many people. "Do to others what you would like others to do to you" is what it is.

I find the old Golden Rule of Leviticus 19:18 was under the temporary Constitution of the old Mosaic Law
Whereas, Jesus gives us a replacing NEW commandment found at John 13:34-35
We are now to love others as Jesus loved us, to now apply Jesus' same self-sacrificing love for others (us).
In other words, we are now to love others MORE than self, more than the old Golden Rule.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The only things that would not end, would be old age, sickness, and death, but maybe people would live longer, and for sure, be healthier - less heart problems, if any.
Oh, and hurricanes and earthquakes would still be around, but with everyone taking care of the environment, they would behave less violently.
So, clearly, the benefits of sticking to Bible standards are tremendous.
It would eliminate some of the junk science is used for.
Did you see North Korea's weapons? Well, that's not half the US', but consider the trillions of dollars being spent to accumulate junk on the earth... rather than feed and care for people's needs.
Not to mention, the chemicals from these, which contribute to the earth ecological health issues.

We cannot blame the written word for people who go contrary to it, though claiming to use it. Just as we cannot blame science for what people choose to use it for.

I find growing old as in getting old will end because enemy death will end - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
Sickness / disease will end - Isaiah 33:24
Jesus is coming to bring ' healing' to earth's nations - Revelation 22:2
As far as weather phenomenon (hurricanes/ earthquakes) Jesus' words will regulate that- Mark 6:51; Mark 4:39-41
God will bring to ruin those ruining the Earth - Revelation 11:18 B.
Earth and its people will be happy and healthy as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.