The bible and slavery - please post direct passages from the bible that you believe support slavery.

[dybmh]

You didn't answer my questions.

There is not a single question mark in any of your recent replies.

And no, a general rule may be clarified for specific cases. That is all that your example did.

That's not how the law works.

The speed limit is 55mph. For trucks it's 50mph. If you're in a truck you have a certain speed limit, all other cases, the speed limit is 55mph.

Male and female slaves are freed after 6 years. An Amah is not a slave. It's that simple.

A car is not a truck according to the law. A minor is not an adult according to the law.

The woman in the verse was clearly doomed to be a slave for life.

Show me the verse where it says that. Feel free to use english. You said "clearly doomed for life" good luck finding that, cause it's not in there.

The clarification that you used had a key word. She and her children were to be slaves.

What type of slaves? Hebrew slaves. Intermarriage is forbidden. If the slave is given a wife, that means the wife is Hebrew.

And if your brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you, and serves you six years; then in the seventh year you shall let them go free from you.​

And I really do not care about your "minor" argument.

How about cars vs. trucks? Or marijuana vs. heroine? Or a house cat vs. a lynx?

In the law there are defintions for things. Legal definitions. Those definitions determine when and where a law is applied.

You would need to show that minors become free as adults. You do not get to assume it.

You would need to show that the wife and child are "clearly doomed for life", You do not get to assume that, either.

Look, when the Torah wants to say, "doomed for life", it says so. It's in the verses you've quoted.

Then his master shall bring him to the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or to the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.
​

Does it say that in the verse about the wife and children? No. So you can't assume that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There is not a single question mark in any of your recent replies.

That's not how the law works.

The speed limit is 55mph. For trucks it's 50mph. If you're in a truck you have a certain speed limit, all other cases, the speed limit is 55mph.

Male and female slaves are freed after 6 years. An Amah is not a slave. It's that simple.

What!? How did you misinterpret that so badly?

A car is not a truck according to the law. A minor is not an adult according to the law.

Show me the verse where it says that. Feel free to use english. You said "clearly doomed for life" good luck finding that, cause it's not in there.

What type of slaves? Hebrew slaves. Intermarriage is forbidden. If the slave is given a wife, that means the wife is Hebrew.

And if your brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you, and serves you six years; then in the seventh year you shall let them go free from you.​

How about cars vs. trucks? Or marijuana vs. heroine? Or a house cat vs. a lynx?

In the law there are defintions for things. Legal definitions. Those definitions determine when and where a law is applied.

You would need to show that the wife and child are "clearly doomed for life", You do not get to assume that, either.

Look, when the Torah wants to say, "doomed for life", it says so. It's in the verses you've quoted.

Then his master shall bring him to the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or to the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.
​

Does it say that in the verse about the wife and children? No. So you can't assume that.

Wow! More purposeful misinterpretation and trying to shift the burden of proof.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

See above post - for some reason, the KJV translates at least ten words or phrases describing various forms of servitude into the term "slave" or "slavery" which in today's culture implies chattel. Actually these phrases or words mean everything from "beloved house servant" to "field hand."

It really doesn't matter what words are being used to label the slaves. What is actually said about them does.

And it's clear that the bible regards them as goods. As private property.
To the point that the children of the slave-owner can even inherit them.

The bible literally calls them the "property" of the owner.

Does it matter if it uses the word "servant" or "waiter" or "slave" or "untouchables" or WHATEVER?

It's the concept that matters, not the label.
And the concept is quite clear: they are regarded as the private property of the owner. They own the people.

That is slavery, full stop.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Is it right to judge past societies by 21st century standards?

Invalid question.

What is being judged is NOT past societies.
What is being judged is god's supposed morals in his supposed book.

Are we supposed to judge the supposed eternal, all powerful, all-knowing and perfectly just god's morals by the moral standards from primitive societal standards from antiquity?




FYI: considering that as far as I am concerned, the bible stories were invented and written by the people from that time, I consider it absolutely normal and expected that it reflects the primitive morals of those days. If however the idea is that these are messages and "moral guidelines" from an all-knowing, perfectly just god, then it makes no sense at all that the morals embedded therein reflect the primitive societies from antiquity.

The bible supposedly is god's message to humans. So the morals therein should be reflecting HIS moral standards - not the moral standards from primitive societies.

Right?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No one is judging societies. We are judging God. God supposedly regularly intervened for or even against the Hebrews in the Old Testament. He could have simply said: "Don't own other people." And reinforced that law. He did not do so. It is almost as if those stories were just myths.

I know, right?

But he did went out of his way to tell them not to eat shrimp though!

 

[Altfish]

Remind me: which question was that exactly?

I've forgotten too

 

[Joe Hinman]

The following was from skepticsannotatedbible.com

Bible stories that show God's approval of slavery:After the flood, the "just and righteous" Noah (Genesis 6:9, 7:1) got drunk, and lay around naked in his tent. When his son, Ham, saw his father in this condition, Noah cursed not Ham, but Ham's son, Canaan, and all of Canaan's descendants, saying, "A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren." This is one of many Bible passages that have been used to justify slavery.

And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. Genesis 9:25-27

God blessed Abraham by giving him lots of slaves ("servants" in the KJV), insisting that all the male slaves be circumscised.And the LORD hath blessed my master [Abraham] greatly; and he is become great: and he hath given him flocks, and herds, and silver, and gold, and menservants, and maidservants, and camels, and asses. Genesis 24:35
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised. Genesis 17:12-13

When Sarah's slave Hagar flees from Sarah who is mistreating her (with Abraham's blessing), God sends an angel to tell her to go back to her abusive owner.Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thine hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face. ... And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her. hands. Genesis 16:8-9Abraham's favorite son Isaac was also a proud slave owner. You can tell how great he was by how many slaves he owned.Then Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year an hundredfold: and the LORD blessed him. And the man waxed great, and went forward, and grew until he became very great: For he had possession of flocks, and possession of herds, and great store of servants. Genesis 26:12-14God cursed the Gibeonites to be slaves of the Jews forever.Now therefore ye are cursed, and there shall none of you be freed from being bondmen, and hewers of wood and drawers of water for the house of my God. ... And Joshua made them that day hewers of wood and drawers of water for the congregation, and for the altar of the LORD, even unto this day. Joshua 9:23-27Rules for slave owners from the Hebrew Scriptureson't let any of your uncircumcised slaves eat the Passover meal.But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. Exodus 12:44Don't covet your neighbor's slaves. (It's one of the the Ten Commandments.)Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. Exodus 20:17
Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ***, or any thing that is thy neighbour's. Deuteronomy 5:21

When buying slaves, be sure to follow God's instructions. Espeically if you are a priest, buying a poor brother, or selling your daughter. Although special rules apply for Hebrew slaves, it's always OK to buy foreigners, who can be inherited from one generation to another forever.If thou buy a Hebrew servant.... Exodus 21:2
And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman be sold unto thee.... Deuteronomy 15:12

If the priest buy any soul with his money.... Leviticus 22:11

And if thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee.... Leviticus 25:39

And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant.... Exodus 21:7

Thy bond-men and thy bond-maids which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you: of them shall ye buy bond-men and bond-maids. Moreover, of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land. And they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession, they shall be your bond-man forever. Leviticus 25:44-46

But don't get caught stealing a slave, or you'll be put to death.He that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 21:16
If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die. Deuteronomy 24:7

It's OK with God if you slowly beat your slaves to death. After all, they are your money. Just make sure that they survive at least a day or two after the beating. But try not to knock out their teeth or eyes. Otherwise you may have to set them free.If a man smite his servant or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand, he shall be surely punished; notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished, for he is his money. Exodus 21:20-21
And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake. Exodus 21:26-27

If your ox gores ("pushes" in the KJV) someone's slave, pay the slave owner thirty shekels of silver.If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver. Exodus 21:32Sell poor thiefs as slaves to pay for their theft.If a thief ... have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. Exodus 22:2-3If a man has sex with an engaged slave woman, scourge the woman, but don't punish the man, because she was a slave.And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. Leviticus 19:20Rules for obtaining slaves during wartime.When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee. Deuteronomy 20:10-11
But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself. Deuteronomy 20:14

Some of Jesus's parables seem to approve of slavery and beating slaves.The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. Luke 12:46-47
But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. Luke 17:7-9

The New Testament's epistles approve of slavery and command slaves to obey their masters.Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant. 1 Corinthians 7:21-22
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ. Ephesians 6:5

Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God. Colossians 3:22

Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven. Colossians 4:1

Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise ... he is proud, knowing nothing.... From such withdraw thyself. 1 Timothy 6:1-5

Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God. Titus 2:9-10

Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 1 Peter 2:18​

A passage having been used to support slavery is not proof that the passage is really meant to say that. It seems that The Bible keeps pace with the level people are at in their understanding, They deal with slavery over time, Paul says slave traders are the biggest sinners.

 

[ChristineM]

The verses absolutely say the striking person is punished. The punishment is simply limited simply to non-capital punishments. It says,
וְכִי-יַכֶּה אִישׁ אֶת-עַבְדּוֹ אוֹ אֶת-אֲמָתוֹ, בַּשֵּׁבֶט, וּמֵת, תַּחַת יָדוֹ--נָקֹם, יִנָּקֵם
אַךְ אִם-יוֹם אוֹ יוֹמַיִם, יַעֲמֹד--לֹא יֻקַּם, כִּי כַסְפּוֹ הוּא
It absolutely says he will be punished. It merely says there are two different forms the punishment can take whether the servant who was struck dies immediately or not. That is it. You are flat out wrong on this point. Period. It isn't "my interpretation". It isn't about interpretation at all. It is what the text says.

And did you notice the "וְ" (vav) at the beginning? That indicates this is a continuation of the list that started at with the verse that reads
מַכֵּה אִישׁ וָמֵת, מוֹת יוּמָת

It is quite clear. These verses are part of an enumeration of capital offenses, of those things that are and are not capital offenses. There is nothing in the list that implies that things that are not capital offense have no penalties. That is adding to the text. Your statement that the striker does not receive a punishment because he isn't liable for the death penalty is (again) flat out wrong. And anyone that can read the original text can see that clearly as day.

You claim to "take the bible[sic] as written". Well I copied and pasted the text above. It completely says what I have written and not what you have said it does.

Again, we are taking bible, read the OP. There are well over 400 different translations, each one different.

 

[Kenny]

Mark 10:44
And whoever of you desires to be first shall be slave of all.

John 8:34
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

Romans 6:18
And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Romans 6:22
But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

 

[Kathryn]

Either there is one bible or many, which is it?

As I stated and as is well known, the bible is a collection of many different books written over thousands of years in several languages. There are many different interpretations as well. Personally I like using the New Jerusalem bible but that's because I speak English.

What do you think motivated the Southern Baptists of the Confederate South using the Bible to justify their slavery, and even their decision to separate from the USA and go to war to resolve the politics of that policy? IOW, why so much moral disagreement among Christians when they have the Bible as a moral guide?

And in a related issue, why did millions of Lutherans and Catholics conspire to round up and exterminate the Jews of Europe in the early 1940's.

The Bible doesn't seem to be guilding believers very well, and even being used to justify crimes against humans.

Man is a fallen creature. That's how I see it. Give a man any book or any government for that matter, and he will twist it to meet his own needs and to say whatever he wants it to say.

 

[Kathryn]

Morally wrong for you...but not for other people? If I enslaved you, that wouldn't be immoral?

Doesn't Jesus' second commandment apply to everyone?

Sure it does. If you don't want me to enslave you, don't enslave me.

 

[Kathryn]

I notice by the way, that people are focusing on the Old Testament verses. I think that's interesting.

 

[Kathryn]

So the Bible contradicts itself. There is nothing new about that. Your OP question was about slavery in the Bible and verses in the Bible clearly support it. I will not dispute that Jesus's second great commandment is one that could be used to oppose slavery. I doubt if anyone pointing out the verses that show that the Bible supports slavery do not also understand that the Bible contradicts itself quite often.

"The bible" is a collection of many different books written in several languages to different audiences over a period of thousands of years. Therefore I always, always look at the context of any book I'm reading - who, what, when, where, why, how? Hopefully you do too.

 

[Subduction Zone]

"The bible" is a collection of many different books written in several languages to different audiences over a period of thousands of years. Therefore I always, always look at the context of any book I'm reading - who, what, when, where, why, how? Hopefully you do too.

Of course. I also realize that various books were not written by their purported authors.

 

[Kathryn]

Of course. I also realize that various books were not written by their purported authors.

Which books are you talking about specifically?
Though I don't want to get off topic.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Which books are you talking about specifically?

We could start with the first five in the Old Testament and the first four in the New.

 

[Left Coast]

Sure it does. If you don't want me to enslave you, don't enslave me.

Okay, so then it's not just immoral for you, it's immoral for everyone.

 

[dybmh]

What!? How did you misinterpret that so badly?

I am not interpretting. I am reading.

#1 Words have meanings. A car is not a truck. Maurijuana is not heroine. A minor is not an adult. A house cat is not a lynx.

#2 Laws are applied based on the words used in the law. The speed limit is different for a car compared to a truck. The speed limit is the same for cars and trucks in a school zone.

#3 If a law is written with a general rule followed by a specific example, the specific example is an exception. The speed limit is 55mph. The speed limit for trucks is 50mph. All vehicles have speed limit of 55mph except for trucks.

#4 If a law is written with a list of specific examples followed by a general rule, then the specific examples are leading up to the all inclusive rule. Bicycles, cars, and trucks need to stop for pedestrians. All vehicles on the road need to stop for pedestrians.

Both #3 and #4 can be combined simply as the later rule clarifies the earlier rule.

The law in the Torah about Hebrew slaves gaining freedom is given in two places. The later verse is all inclusive clarifying the earlier verse.

כי־ימכר לך אחיך העברי או העבריה ועבדך שש שנים ובשנה השביעת תשלחנו חפשי מעמך׃

And if your brother, a Hebrew(masculine) man, or a Hebrew(feminine) woman, is sold to you, and serves you six years; then in the seventh year you shall let them go free from you.
​

I did make a mistake quoting this verse in english previously. It doesn't say "man" or "woman". It says a Hebrew-masculine and a Hebrew-feminine. That means this law applies cradle to grave if the person is a Hebrew.

Judaism does not allow intermarriage. Looking at the previous verse which is what you are calling a trick to coerce the slave into indefinite servitude. It says that the Hebrew man is given a wife. This means that the wife is Hebrew. The children are also Hebrew. Therefore the freed slave is seperated from his wife and children for a maximum of 7 years.

Good to here?

Wow! More purposeful misinterpretation and trying to shift the burden of proof.

You made a claim:

The woman in the verse was clearly doomed to be a slave for life.

You now have the burden of proof.

"doomed for life" is clearly stated in Exodus 21:6.

Then his master shall bring him to the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or to the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.
​

"doomed for life" is never applied to the woman nor the children in any of the verses brought.

The burden is on you to prove the claim you made.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Invalid question.

What is being judged is NOT past societies.
What is being judged is god's supposed morals in his supposed book.

Are we supposed to judge the supposed eternal, all powerful, all-knowing and perfectly just god's morals by the moral standards from primitive societal standards from antiquity?




FYI: considering that as far as I am concerned, the bible stories were invented and written by the people from that time, I consider it absolutely normal and expected that it reflects the primitive morals of those days. If however the idea is that these are messages and "moral guidelines" from an all-knowing, perfectly just god, then it makes no sense at all that the morals embedded therein reflect the primitive societies from antiquity.

The bible supposedly is god's message to humans. So the morals therein should be reflecting HIS moral standards - not the moral standards from primitive societies.

Right?

This ^^^^^^^

 

[Kathryn]

We could start with the first five in the Old Testament and the first four in the New.

Like I said earlier, I don't want to get off topic but the first five books of the bible are the Jewish Torah, in which the author is not named. Nor was authorship even considered important when it was written down and expanded upon. (This is also where most of the passages quoted about slavery come from.) But you're a bit behind in your scholarship, I believe, because the vast majority of biblical scholars today believe that the Torah was written by many authors over a long period of time. Many also believe that Moses wrote parts of the Pentateuch but not all of it.

Anywho, on to the New Testament. We'll start with the book of Matthew. It was originally written in Greek though there has been extended conversation about an Aramaic version. It, along with Mark and Luke, is considered to be one of the three Synoptic Gospels. John has a different take on the whole story line completely. Anyway, honestly, I'm pretty bored with this discussion, which is also off topic for the thread. But carry on if you like!