The Bible and the Zodiac

[Quagmire]

I'm sorry that you found it so difficult to get to the Harvard link I found it quite easy.

Calling it a pdf didn't help.

You've been given ample evidence.

Is "ample" a synonym for "none" now?

Your not debating anything,

Kind of hard to have a debate by yourself.

in fact you've stated nothing worth reading,

Keep telling yourself that.

you've given no counter.

To what? You haven't been engaging in a debate, you're just playing a lot of prissy little games to punish me for questioning your "sacred truth".

Your opinion isn't enough whats been presented.

Enough for what?

You may be staff

Ah yeah, I was wondering when you would get around to pointing at my staff badge and crying "persecution".

but at this point your just trolling, so until you post something worth responding to, i'll just disreguard you.

Look man, I know you have a lot invested in believing what you're posting. And I also realize what a gargantuan effort that must take.

But this is a debate forum. What that means is: if people disagree with you about something, they have a right to express that disagreement. If people see a flaw in your reasoning, they have a right to point it out. If you make a claim, people have a right to ask you to substantiate it.

As much as all that must bother you, it isn't trolling.

No one is obligated to humor you here.

 

[Walter Russell]

Calling it a pdf didn't help.



Is "ample" a synonym for "none" now?



Kind of hard to have a debate by yourself.



Keep telling yourself that.



To what? You haven't been engaging in a debate, you're just playing a lot of prissy little games to punish me for questioning your "sacred truth".



Enough for what?



Ah yeah, I was wondering when you would get around to pointing at my staff badge and crying "persecution".



Look man, I know you have a lot invested in believing what you're posting. And I also realize what a gargantuan effort that must take.

But this is a debate forum. What that means is: if people disagree with you about something, they have a right to express that disagreement. If people see a flaw in your reasoning, they have a right to point it out. If you make a claim, people have a right to ask you to substantiate it.

As much as all that must bother you, it isn't trolling.

No one is obligated to humor you here.

I'll consider it a debate when you put forth some evidence to counter the points listed in this thread but as yet i've heard nothing except your baseless opinions.

A Harvard study on the origins of the Zodiac and its reference to the eagle, multiple astrology sites that have nothing to do with Christianity that relate scorpio with the eagle as well as a native american culture link.

You want to make statements as weak as a calf isn't a bull when again a simple google search will show you a wealth of idol bull worship during the age Taurus.

Your right, this is a debate forumn and everyone is free to have an opinion and I welcome it but quit acting like you've done anything beyond giving just that.

Do you have a counter for the meaning of the faces in Ezekiels vision more valid than what i've put forth?

 

[Quagmire]

I'll consider it a debate when you put forth some evidence to counter the points listed in this thread but as yet i've heard nothing except your baseless opinions.

The impression I'm getting is that you don't have any idea what a debate is.

When someone asks you a sincere, polite question, and your only response is to say, "Here, there's a link within this link that links to another link (not going to tell you what it's called) that will take you to other links that may or may not address your question." just to get someone out of your hair, that isn't a debate, it's a game. A pretty childish one at that.

A Harvard study on the origins of the Zodiac and its reference to the eagle, multiple astrology sites that have nothing to do with Christianity that relate scorpio with the eagle as well as a native american culture link.

Again: if that's what you see when you read the pages you linked to, then you and I aren't going to be able to continue this conversation. I can only read things that are actually there.

You want to make statements as weak as a calf isn't a bull

Well, it isn't. Which wouldn't have been here nor there except that you actually claimed that Taurus was "the sign of the calf". I was just trying to point out that you could have phrased that better.

when again a simple google search will show you a wealth of idol bull worship during the age Taurus.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with what we're arguing about.

Your right, this is a debate forumn and everyone is free to have an opinion and I welcome it but quit acting like you've done anything beyond giving just that.

I haven't even been doing that. I've just been asking you to substantiate yours. I would say, "Not sure why that upset you so much" but the truth is, I'm pretty sure I understand why it did.

Do you have a counter for the meaning of the faces in Ezekiels vision more valid than what i've put forth?

Do you have any strategies besides ad hominems and trying to change the subject?

 

[Nefelie]

I've already read through the links the OP provided, none of which addressed what we're talking about.

I was referring to my previous post, but anyway…

And anyway, just posting links with miles of text and telling the people you're debating with to go search through it all and see if they can pin-point something relevant to the conversation isn't how this works. […] If there actually is something somewhere in any of these links that demonstrates the point being discussed, it shouldn't be too hard to isolate it from the rest of the text and post it here in a breif paragraph or two.

Fair enough.

So, here are relative fragments from the sites I gave you. But, if you want more explanations, you will have to read the whole thing, in the actual sites:

<<…Scorpio has not just two symbols but three: the Scorpion, the Eagle and the Phoenix…>>
Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists...on-the-eagle-and-the.html#KjjcgjTQUuyoZ5Gk.99

<<…Many ancient astrologers, including Ibn Ezra [Arabic astrologer] , recognised eagle symbolism as valid to this sign, since the biblical prophet Ezekiel described a vision, believed to be drawn from Babylonian astrology and representative of the ‘fixed cross of matter’…>>
Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists...on-the-eagle-and-the.html#KjjcgjTQUuyoZ5Gk.99

<<…Little do people know, Scorpio is actually the ONLY sign in the Zodiac that has another form! It is the Eagle, sometimes the Phoenix. The Eagle/Phoenix is a higher expression of Scorpio power. One who transcends from the crawling scorpion to the soaring Eagle […] The Scorpio/Eagle will always have a Scorpio's basic traits. What makes them an Eagle is how they use those traits..…>>
Read more at http://www.adrianlobo.net/blog/scorpio-to-the-eaglephoenix​

Will those do or you want me to present more? I can, if you wish.

Oh, and BTW, I really resent your tone. If you really are interested in this conversation, I’d appreciate it if you be more polite.

.

 

[Nefelie]

Here are more, from Greek sites:

<<…The zodiac sign of Scorpio as we said has two symbols. Your mission then has two parts. The first is associated with the scorpion that creeps on the earth and has a tail ending in a venomous stinger. […] Second, as the eagle that flies proudly above, it is through the difficulties and ugliness of life and be reborn to serve a high ideal […] If we tried to unite the two parts into one, we could say that your lifelong goal is to bring light to the darkness...>>
Source: http://www.astrology.gr/ZODIA/TA-12-ZODIA/item/50046-giati-gennithika-skorpios#ixzz4BGTUqElT

<<…Sir William Drummond wrote that according to the zodiac Abraham knew, the Scorpio was an Eagle…>>
Source: Greek Wikipedia

<<…The symbols of Scorpio is the scorpion, an assassin who lives on the ground with a poisonous sting in the tail and the eagle, a predator with insight that flies above the minor problems in the spiritual sky…>>
Source: http://www.astrologer.gr/scorpio.html

<<...The eagle, another symbol of Scorpio, has to do with the spiritual dimension...>>
Source: https://astrodouzina.wordpress.com/​

And some more in English:

<<…Scorpio, however, states Fred Gettings in The Secret Zodiac, still retains a dual image—the eagle and scorpion—a duality which represents the two natures of man:
"The eagle of St John is the eagle of Scorpio, which sign (alone of all the twelve) has two images, the eagle the symbol of the redeemed and spiritualized Scorpionic nature, the scorpion its fallen, unredeemed and earth-bound nature."
[…]
The eagle on the Great Seal of the U.S. dollar, which is believed to represent Scorpio, is an indication that this sign will inaugurate the Judeo-Masonic New World Order:
"The final Great Seal [of the United States] is also full of arcane symbolism.
"The bald eagle is said to represent Scorpio, who is associated with death and rebirth...>>
Source: https://watch.pair.com/scorpio.html

<<…The four beasts of the Apocalypse have an astrological significance. The beast with the human face correlates with Aquarius (Matthew), the lion with Leo (Mark), the ox with Taurus (Luke) and the eagle with Aquila (John). The zodiac sign Aquila is often replaced by the zodiac sign Scorpio in ancient zodiacs….>>
Source: http://www.soulsofdistortion.nl/The mystery of the Cathedrals.html (this is a very interesting article all together. I suggest you read it all)

<<…Unique among the other zodiac signs, Scorpio is represented by three animals: the scorpion, the eagle, and the phoenix (or some say the dove). Each of these animals symbolizes a different aspect and a different stage of Scorpio regeneration…>>
Source: http://astrologyspeaks.blogspot.gr/2011/10/scorpio-scorpion-eagle-and-phoenix.html

<<…Alan Oken in his book, Soul-Centered Astrology, allocated three symbols to Scorpio – The Scorpion, The Eagle and The Phoenix. Each one represents a level of Scorpio’s expression. In theory the Scorpion must evolve into the Eagle who must then evolve into the Phoenix…>>
Source: https://anupturnedsoul.wordpress.com/2013/10/20/the-scorpion-the-eagle-and-the-phoenix-thoughts-on-mercury-retrograde-in-scorpio/

<<…ZODIAC ENERGY: SCORPIO SYMBOLS: Scorpion > Eagle > Phoenix
Scorpio’s 3 symbols depict each of the three levels of the evolutionary spiral for this Sign: Scorpion = Totally Personality-Centered >>> Eagle = Awakening to the Soul-Personality Relationship >>> Phoenix = Soul-Centered Individual…>>
Source: http://www.pathwaytoascension.com/astrology/scorpio.html​

…And a couple of images:

Need more? I STILL have more!!

.

 

[Walter Russell]

Here are more, from Greek sites:

<<…The zodiac sign of Scorpio as we said has two symbols. Your mission then has two parts. The first is associated with the scorpion that creeps on the earth and has a tail ending in a venomous stinger. […] Second, as the eagle that flies proudly above, it is through the difficulties and ugliness of life and be reborn to serve a high ideal […] If we tried to unite the two parts into one, we could say that your lifelong goal is to bring light to the darkness...>>
Source: http://www.astrology.gr/ZODIA/TA-12-ZODIA/item/50046-giati-gennithika-skorpios#ixzz4BGTUqElT

<<…Sir William Drummond wrote that according to the zodiac Abraham knew, the Scorpio was an Eagle…>>
Source: Greek Wikipedia

<<…The symbols of Scorpio is the scorpion, an assassin who lives on the ground with a poisonous sting in the tail and the eagle, a predator with insight that flies above the minor problems in the spiritual sky…>>
Source: http://www.astrologer.gr/scorpio.html

<<...The eagle, another symbol of Scorpio, has to do with the spiritual dimension...>>
Source: https://astrodouzina.wordpress.com/​

And some more in English:

<<…Scorpio, however, states Fred Gettings in The Secret Zodiac, still retains a dual image—the eagle and scorpion—a duality which represents the two natures of man:
"The eagle of St John is the eagle of Scorpio, which sign (alone of all the twelve) has two images, the eagle the symbol of the redeemed and spiritualized Scorpionic nature, the scorpion its fallen, unredeemed and earth-bound nature."
[…]
The eagle on the Great Seal of the U.S. dollar, which is believed to represent Scorpio, is an indication that this sign will inaugurate the Judeo-Masonic New World Order:
"The final Great Seal [of the United States] is also full of arcane symbolism.
"The bald eagle is said to represent Scorpio, who is associated with death and rebirth...>>
Source: https://watch.pair.com/scorpio.html

<<…The four beasts of the Apocalypse have an astrological significance. The beast with the human face correlates with Aquarius (Matthew), the lion with Leo (Mark), the ox with Taurus (Luke) and the eagle with Aquila (John). The zodiac sign Aquila is often replaced by the zodiac sign Scorpio in ancient zodiacs….>>
Source: http://www.soulsofdistortion.nl/The mystery of the Cathedrals.html (this is a very interesting article all together. I suggest you read it all)

<<…Unique among the other zodiac signs, Scorpio is represented by three animals: the scorpion, the eagle, and the phoenix (or some say the dove). Each of these animals symbolizes a different aspect and a different stage of Scorpio regeneration…>>
Source: http://astrologyspeaks.blogspot.gr/2011/10/scorpio-scorpion-eagle-and-phoenix.html

<<…Alan Oken in his book, Soul-Centered Astrology, allocated three symbols to Scorpio – The Scorpion, The Eagle and The Phoenix. Each one represents a level of Scorpio’s expression. In theory the Scorpion must evolve into the Eagle who must then evolve into the Phoenix…>>
Source: https://anupturnedsoul.wordpress.com/2013/10/20/the-scorpion-the-eagle-and-the-phoenix-thoughts-on-mercury-retrograde-in-scorpio/

<<…ZODIAC ENERGY: SCORPIO SYMBOLS: Scorpion > Eagle > Phoenix
Scorpio’s 3 symbols depict each of the three levels of the evolutionary spiral for this Sign: Scorpion = Totally Personality-Centered >>> Eagle = Awakening to the Soul-Personality Relationship >>> Phoenix = Soul-Centered Individual…>>
Source: http://www.pathwaytoascension.com/astrology/scorpio.html​

…And a couple of images:

Need more? I STILL have more!!

.

Well put, but clearly it doesn't matter how much evidence is given to him. He's clearly biased on the topic and has no point being here other than to harass.

Quagmire could have read for himself in the various links we have posted.

He believes that if he just ignores the evidence and keeps repeating himself that he's discrediting the points put forth in this thread.

 

[Nefelie]

Here’s another astronomical connection with the Gospels:

The flight to Egypt

After the departure of the Magi (the Wise Men), Joseph saw in a dream an angel advising him to take his family and flee to Egypt because a great danger was lurking for the infant. Indeed, Joseph immediately got up, took the mother and child and left hurriedly for Egypt, "so it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying: 'Out of Egypt I called my son'".

Egypt is also called by the Jews "down country", because there is where the sun sets, and it is west of Israel. At the night sky in December of that time, we observe that the Sun along with the constellation of Virgo and Bootes, set together along the horizon, "in Egypt". And so we have the scene of Joseph Bootes together with the Virgin and the infant-Sun "to Egypt."

.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Frankly, I don't want quotes from a lot of modern writers. I want references to actual texts, primary sources. I've got almost all the Greek astrologers on my shelves and I've read some of the Egyptian and Akkadian sources, and I've never found any connection between Scorpio and eagles. Until some-one provides me with a primary source, I shall write it off as new age tosh.

Similarly, I'd like a little more evidence of any Israelite interest in astrology. Amos, Jeremiah, Isaiah, and the author of Deuteronomy are uniformly hostile, as I remember.

 

[Quagmire]

Frankly, I don't want quotes from a lot of modern writers. I want references to actual texts, primary sources. I've got almost all the Greek astrologers on my shelves and I've read some of the Egyptian and Akkadian sources, and I've never found any connection between Scorpio and eagles. Until some-one provides me with a primary source, I shall write it off as new age tosh.

Similarly, I'd like a little more evidence of any Israelite interest in astrology. Amos, Jeremiah, Isaiah, and the author of Deuteronomy are uniformly hostile, as I remember.

Thank you, David. It's nice to see that someone understands the question.

 

[Walter Russell]

Frankly, I don't want quotes from a lot of modern writers. I want references to actual texts, primary sources. I've got almost all the Greek astrologers on my shelves and I've read some of the Egyptian and Akkadian sources, and I've never found any connection between Scorpio and eagles. Until some-one provides me with a primary source, I shall write it off as new age tosh.

Similarly, I'd like a little more evidence of any Israelite interest in astrology. Amos, Jeremiah, Isaiah, and the author of Deuteronomy are uniformly hostile, as I remember.

You can disagree with the connection between scorpio and the eagle. That doesn't change the point of the thread which is to show astrology in the bible.

I posted a link to a Harvard study of the origins of the Zodiac in which it listed the eagle as a royal constellation in ancient times.

Circling the wagons on an irrelevant point is pointless. The scorpion and the eagle are both very well represented in astrology whether you decide to see them the same doesn't matter. The Lion,Bull,Man and Eagle of Ezekiel and Revelation are astrological signs.

 

[Walter Russell]

The life of Jesus mirrors the yearly cycle of the sun. From his birth story, his disciples, his ministry and his death and resurrection. No differently than the story of Horus of Eygpt or that of the Greek story of Hercules and many others.

It is so undeniable at this point that the only way Christians can put up a decent argument against it is to claim that the story told in the sky was written to foretell the coming of Jesus in the same way that the OT did. There are many Christian web sites that make this claim.

 

[Ingledsva]

Well put, but clearly it doesn't matter how much evidence is given to him. He's clearly biased on the topic and has no point being here other than to harass.

Quagmire could have read for himself in the various links we have posted.

He believes that if he just ignores the evidence and keeps repeating himself that he's discrediting the points put forth in this thread.

Didn't I say it would degenerate into arguments?

Tanakh and NT have obvious zodiac and God as Sun history in both historic writings and iconography, however - Quagmire is correct in that most of the sites you have listed are not authorities, or referenced.

Astrology is considered pseudoscience, so unless such sites are very will cited and referenced, they won't be acceptable.

However, the - The Tetramorph; The Sumerian Origins of a Christian Symbol - article was interesting, and the Harvard article was very interesting and was thankfully referenced and cited. I took a snapshot from it.

Tanakh actually references YHVH as a SUN, and even calls him SUN. We also have ancient mosaics from Hebrew Temple floors showing YHVH as the Solar God in his Solar Chariot surrounded by the zodiac. So there is no question as to the Sun and zodiac connections.

Psa 84:11 For YHVH Elohiym is a Sun and shield: YHVH will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

Psa 19:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Psa 19:2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

Psa 19:3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

Psa 19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

Psa 19:5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

Psa 19:6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
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Psa 68:32 Sing to God, ye kingdoms of the earth; sing psalms to the Lord. Pause.

Psa 68:33 Sing to God that rides on the heaven of heaven, eastward: lo, he will utter a mighty sound (crackling, thunder) with his voice.

Psa 68:34 Give ye glory to God: his excellency is over Israel, and his power is in the clouds.

Psa 68:35 God is wonderful in his holy places, the God of Israel: he will give power and strength to his people: blessed be God.
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THE PRACTICAL BIBLE DICTIONARY, SUN; The greater light, Gen. 1:15-18. WORSHIPPED by idolatrous HEBREWS, 2 Kgs 21:3,5; 23:5.
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Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day is coming, burning like a fire pot; and all the proud and every doer of wickedness shall be chaff. And the coming day will set them ablaze, says YAHWEH of Hosts, which will not leave root or branches to them.

Mal 4:2 But to you who fear My name, the Sun of Righteousness shall rise up, and healing will be in His rays. And you shall go out and frisk like calves of the stall.

Mal 4:3 And you shall tread under the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day which I am preparing, says YAHWEH of Hosts.

Even Unger's Bible Encyclopedia has an article on Hebrew sun worship.

You can see some of the Hebrew and Christian Sun God zodiac iconography in this thread -

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...astrology-in-the-gospels.187552/#post-4782864

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[First Baseman]

Read the first sentence in the Bible. If God created the Zodiac, and according to it He did, then He created it without giving us a Zodiac map to guide us. I would advise forgetting the Zodiac and concentrate on discovery of truth.

 

[Ingledsva]

Read the first sentence in the Bible. If God created the Zodiac, and according to it He did, then He created it without giving us a Zodiac map to guide us. I would advise forgetting the Zodiac and concentrate on discovery of truth.

The truth is that just like all the Pagan religions of the time, - the Hebrew had Sun God worship, - and it continues in the Christian Jesus "story," iconography, etc.

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[First Baseman]

The truth is that just like all the Pagan religions of the time, - the Hebrew had Sun God worship, - and it continues in the Christian Jesus "story," iconography, etc.

*

Prove it. Beyond doubt.

Yep, I know you can't.

Anyway, the thread is about the Zodiac and a possible relationship of it with the Bible. If you are unwilling to discuss that then why are you here? Because you abhor all things Biblical. Is that not correct?

 

[Ingledsva]

Prove it. Beyond doubt.

Yep, I know you can't.

Anyway, the thread is about the Zodiac and a possible relationship of it with the Bible. If you are unwilling to discuss that then why are you here? Because you abhor all things Biblical. Is that not correct?

Rather a strange reply.

I have been discussing it - see above.

I have given actual Bible quotes, and referenced CHRISTIAN Encyclopedias with Hebrew Sun Worship information.

I have sent you to the other page showing ancient Hebrew Temple floors with YHVH in his Sun Chariot surrounded by the zodiac.

The author of that thread shows the Jesus connection in the iconography, and legend, and this thread does as well, obviously.

So what's your beef?

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[First Baseman]

Rather a strange reply.

I have been discussing it - see above.

I have given actual Bible quotes, and referenced CHRISTIAN Encyclopedias with Hebrew Sun Worship information.

I have sent you to the other page showing ancient Hebrew Temple floors with YHVH in his Sun Chariot surrounded by the zodiac.

The author of that thread shows the Jesus connection in the iconography, and legend, and this thread does as well, obviously.

So what's your beef?

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Well, I just know that you don't take anything the Bible says seriously so I just have to wonder why you would seriously want to discuss it.

 

[Sleeppy]

Well, I just know that you don't take anything the Bible says seriously so I just have to wonder why you would seriously want to discuss it.

I've seen these ideas before and just disregarded them.. But if you just look at what's there with open eyes, it's pretty obvious that Sun worship and all other manner of ideas and practices are what formulated the Jewish, and eventually Christian religions. Doesn't negate their truths; actually adds to them, and gives them their proper context.

 

[First Baseman]

I've seen these ideas before and just disregarded them.. But if you just look at what's there with open eyes, it's pretty obvious that Sun worship and all other manner of ideas and practices are what formulated the Jewish, and eventually Christian religions. Doesn't negate their truths; actually adds to them, and gives them their proper context.

Hogwash. The Bible itself starts with creation and that predates your sun worshippers. Also, sun worshippers aren't the Almighty God.

Rather Satan has well convinced you of things that you don't and can't possibly understand. To think that anyone would take anything more seriously than Job's testimony is actually quite absurd.

 

[Ingledsva]

Well, I just know that you don't take anything the Bible says seriously so I just have to wonder why you would seriously want to discuss it.

I'm interested in all religions' history, mythology, spread, etc.

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