First Baseman
Retired athlete
C'mon, jaybird. If the Catholic Bible is okay then the Protestant one is okay. The Catholic one has more books.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
the bible canon
- Thread starter jaybird
- Start date
C'mon, jaybird. If the Catholic Bible is okay then the Protestant one is okay. The Catholic one has more books.
jaybird
Member
Tobit is a book in your bible that is not in mine. you have a council saying the book is ok and where i am at there is a council saying this book is not ok. do these councils not think the Lord can lead us to accept or not accept such books, is this beyond our Lords abilities?
Jesus told us to knock and the door will open, all through the bible we are taught that if we seek the Lord He will lead us right where we need to go. i dont remember Jesus teaching to put faith in councils when seeking the Lord most High. make sense? and between you and I, Tobit is a good book and i dont need a council to tell me that.
First Baseman
Retired athlete
Well, the Holy Spirit can and will tell you what to believe and what not to believe, so in that respect you don't need a council. But those whose faith is weak need the council to decide for them until they are mature enough spiritually to find out for themselves.
POST ONE OF THREE
Clear said : “HiJaybird : Like you, I wish the western Christian movements had left certain books inside their canon since they contained theological principles that would have made the early Christian movement and it's doctrines more clear to subsequent generations of Christian movements. For example, Hermas and Barnabas that were inside the 4th century New Testament (C. Sinaiticus) were wonderful books that both confirm and make more clear certain principles. I wish that Rabbinic Judaism had not prohibited inquiries concerning pre-creation themes and had kept books like Enoch, Jubilees, etc. in their bibles. The Eastern Old Testament (ethiopic) still have these books in them.
Such books added insight and explanation to doctrines found in the Early Christian movement that could have settled many of the later philosophical and religious arguments that sprung up among the many Christian movements and caused so much schism and argument between the later Theologian-derived religious doctrines. “ Post # 11
Shiranui117 asked : “What examples do you have of arguments that could have been solved? Are we talking the big things like the divinity of Jesus, the Trinity, the Hypostatic Union, etc.? Or are we talking smaller things like whether the Nephilim were the children of angels and humans? “ Post # 16
Hi Shiranui117 : I would have responded earlier, but the website was giving me a security block on my computer for a time. (don't know why...).
A good example of how early Judeo-Christian textual witnesses can clarify early doctrine is the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, or a world of spirits of the dead who are cognizant and learning and changing. Though this doctrine has been criticized by other Christian movements, versions of it have wonderful support in early Judeo-Christian literature. The many early Christian textual witnesses also clarify the decensus of Jesus and it's place in early Judeo-Christian religion.
Some confusion in recognizing the historical connections result from inconsistent translations since, in describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment Both writers and translators of various early texts use many words (somewhat arbitrarily) in various translations, to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, PURGATORY, etc. (…sometimes "HELL" is used). The english TERM “Purgatory” may be a later term, but the doctrine itself existed among the earliest Judao-christians.
Because translators use so many different terms for the same place, Occassionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion.
For example the description that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” (2 Enoch 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget. This ancient usage of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that “today shalt thou be with me in paradise” (lk 23:43). It was not “heaven” Dymas was promised, but it was “paradise”, the place between corruptible mortality and incorruptible heaven. The greek term "παραδιζο" referred to the place of gardens just outside of the castle of the king. However the thematic descriptions of this place become more consistent as the textual sources become closer to the B.C./ A.D. era.
In the earliest version of this doctrine, All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc. Of mortals it was said, “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip)
The “complainer” Ezra complains regarding the end of his life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ez 7:1) The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he had been there himself as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4).
In the earliest descriptions I can find of this doctrine, it is not simply a place for the evil or uncommitted, but rather in the earliest model of this doctrine, ALL WHO DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD (THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE)
In this ancient theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world. Quote : “do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)
“ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .
“For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15)
None of these references refer to the "Hell" that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, (even the righteous prophets are there…) but Hades was also a name for this "spirit world"; the "place in the middle". Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous). This often confuses non-historian Christians.
Though I am not Catholic and thus do not know how they might describe different aspects of this world of spirits / purgatory, the LDS describe this spirit world and, speak of these spirits who "mingled in the vast assembly and waited for their deliverance, For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage." I agree that this is the context, in which the spirit world was referred to as a "prison" of sorts while they were awaiting the resurrection of their bodies.
When I mentioned the point that not all experience this place as a “prison”, it is partly because the righteous are with the righteous and the evil are placed with the evil. Thus, it is a place of relative peace for some, and for others it is not so peaceful while all of them are awaiting resurrection. ( However, this doesn’t mean important things aren’t happening in this world while they await resurrection.)
In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown that it has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel : Quote: ”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1 Enoch 22:9-13)
Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.
In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...8And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)
In this early doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they are cognizant and communicate and still have free will. Those spirits who had no idea nor concept of God’s plan for them are still allowed to learn and make moral choices just as those who had the gospel given to them while in mortality. They may make the same moral progress as any other individuals. For example : Enoch, describes his vision of Hades/Sheol, teaching that there are those there who teach moral law :
“Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate, to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3en 44:1-3)
It is not merely Samki’el who teaches, but Samki’el is a prototypical teacher of the spirits of men who are able to communicate and teach one another. Remember the prophets and other saints and witnesses of Jesus are in this place as well as the early descension texts witness describe (i.e. descus literature) However, the early Christian Saints also understood, that the spirits of individuals in Sheol (hades, paradise, etc) still possessed intelligent free will and could also accept the blessings of the Gospel as far as they were able.
Clear said : “HiJaybird : Like you, I wish the western Christian movements had left certain books inside their canon since they contained theological principles that would have made the early Christian movement and it's doctrines more clear to subsequent generations of Christian movements. For example, Hermas and Barnabas that were inside the 4th century New Testament (C. Sinaiticus) were wonderful books that both confirm and make more clear certain principles. I wish that Rabbinic Judaism had not prohibited inquiries concerning pre-creation themes and had kept books like Enoch, Jubilees, etc. in their bibles. The Eastern Old Testament (ethiopic) still have these books in them.
Such books added insight and explanation to doctrines found in the Early Christian movement that could have settled many of the later philosophical and religious arguments that sprung up among the many Christian movements and caused so much schism and argument between the later Theologian-derived religious doctrines. “ Post # 11
Shiranui117 asked : “What examples do you have of arguments that could have been solved? Are we talking the big things like the divinity of Jesus, the Trinity, the Hypostatic Union, etc.? Or are we talking smaller things like whether the Nephilim were the children of angels and humans? “ Post # 16
Hi Shiranui117 : I would have responded earlier, but the website was giving me a security block on my computer for a time. (don't know why...).
A good example of how early Judeo-Christian textual witnesses can clarify early doctrine is the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, or a world of spirits of the dead who are cognizant and learning and changing. Though this doctrine has been criticized by other Christian movements, versions of it have wonderful support in early Judeo-Christian literature. The many early Christian textual witnesses also clarify the decensus of Jesus and it's place in early Judeo-Christian religion.
Some confusion in recognizing the historical connections result from inconsistent translations since, in describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment Both writers and translators of various early texts use many words (somewhat arbitrarily) in various translations, to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, PURGATORY, etc. (…sometimes "HELL" is used). The english TERM “Purgatory” may be a later term, but the doctrine itself existed among the earliest Judao-christians.
Because translators use so many different terms for the same place, Occassionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion.
For example the description that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” (2 Enoch 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget. This ancient usage of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that “today shalt thou be with me in paradise” (lk 23:43). It was not “heaven” Dymas was promised, but it was “paradise”, the place between corruptible mortality and incorruptible heaven. The greek term "παραδιζο" referred to the place of gardens just outside of the castle of the king. However the thematic descriptions of this place become more consistent as the textual sources become closer to the B.C./ A.D. era.
In the earliest version of this doctrine, All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc. Of mortals it was said, “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip)
The “complainer” Ezra complains regarding the end of his life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ez 7:1) The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he had been there himself as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4).
In the earliest descriptions I can find of this doctrine, it is not simply a place for the evil or uncommitted, but rather in the earliest model of this doctrine, ALL WHO DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD (THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE)
In this ancient theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world. Quote : “do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)
“ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .
“For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15)
None of these references refer to the "Hell" that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, (even the righteous prophets are there…) but Hades was also a name for this "spirit world"; the "place in the middle". Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous). This often confuses non-historian Christians.
Though I am not Catholic and thus do not know how they might describe different aspects of this world of spirits / purgatory, the LDS describe this spirit world and, speak of these spirits who "mingled in the vast assembly and waited for their deliverance, For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage." I agree that this is the context, in which the spirit world was referred to as a "prison" of sorts while they were awaiting the resurrection of their bodies.
When I mentioned the point that not all experience this place as a “prison”, it is partly because the righteous are with the righteous and the evil are placed with the evil. Thus, it is a place of relative peace for some, and for others it is not so peaceful while all of them are awaiting resurrection. ( However, this doesn’t mean important things aren’t happening in this world while they await resurrection.)
In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown that it has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel : Quote: ”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1 Enoch 22:9-13)
Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.
In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...8And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)
In this early doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they are cognizant and communicate and still have free will. Those spirits who had no idea nor concept of God’s plan for them are still allowed to learn and make moral choices just as those who had the gospel given to them while in mortality. They may make the same moral progress as any other individuals. For example : Enoch, describes his vision of Hades/Sheol, teaching that there are those there who teach moral law :
“Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate, to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3en 44:1-3)
It is not merely Samki’el who teaches, but Samki’el is a prototypical teacher of the spirits of men who are able to communicate and teach one another. Remember the prophets and other saints and witnesses of Jesus are in this place as well as the early descension texts witness describe (i.e. descus literature) However, the early Christian Saints also understood, that the spirits of individuals in Sheol (hades, paradise, etc) still possessed intelligent free will and could also accept the blessings of the Gospel as far as they were able.
Last edited:
POST TWO OF THREE
Being “bodiless”, these individuals could not be baptized, though they could make the change of heart associated with faith, humility, repentance, etc. The early textual testimony concerning the two sons of Symeon, describe individual believers in the spirit world were teachers of others, just as those alive with bodies teach and testify of the gospel to others.
Whether moral progress occurs to the spirit before mortality, or during mortality or after mortality, still, changes may occur as long as God allows the individual to chose. The ancient saying in this context of moral change occurring in men is that “God is a dyer. As the good dyes, which are called “true,” dissolve with the things dyed in them, so it is with those whom God has dyed. Since his dyes are immortal, they are immortal by means of his colors. Now God dips what he dips in water." (The gospel of Phillip)
The doctrine of the descensus is foreign to many protestant churches, (though I believe the Catholics retain a version of it as well as of Purgatory) but anciently, the Judao-Christians spoke of the descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death The descent of Christ into this spirit world after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts.
One is The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks he risen Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”
In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying : "I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)
The early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there. Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection :
“Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)
These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were not baptized while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).
“We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....Therefore I say to you all: When you see him, all of you worship him. For now only have you opportunity for repentance because you worshiped idols in the vain world above and sinned. At another time it is impossible” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two)
I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching the gospel, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of men are teaching the gospel to individuals such as the sons of Rabi Simeon, and many testified of gospel truths to the others in the spirit world.
The story continues : “Now when John was thus teaching those who were in Hades, the first-created, the first father Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish you to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent you when I fell into mortal sickness.”
Seth then teaches the others regarding the "oil of mercy" that Adam requested and that Seth was told “go and tell your father that after the completion of fifty-five hundred years from the creation of the world, the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him with that oil. And he shall arise and wash him and his descendants with water and the Holy spirit. And then he shall be healed of every disease....When the patriarchs and prophets heard this, they rejoiced greatly.” This same message was NOT merely for Patriarchs and Prophets, but for all souls there who would listen.
In chapter four, Satan adjures the angel of Hades to prevent Jesus from coming if it is possible, “For I believe that he comes here to raise all the dead”....” and while Satan and Hades were speaking thus to one another, a loud voice like thunder sounded: “Lift up your gates, O rulers, and be lifted up, O everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in”...David said: “Do you not know, blind one, that when I lived in the world, I prophesied that word: ‘Lift up your gates, O rulers?’” (Ps 23:7). Isaiah said: “I foresaw this by the Holy Spirit and wrote: ‘The dead shall arise, and those who are in the tombs shall be raised up, and those who are under the earth shall rejoice (ps 26:19) O death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory.’” .....the gates of brass were broken in pieces and the bars of iron were crushed and all the dead who were bound were loosed from their chains, and we with them. And the King of glory entered in like a man, and all the dark places of Hades were illumined.”.
The sons of Symeon continue to relate that : Quote: Ch VIII ...the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: “Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross. With that he put them all out. “
Importantly, the sons of Symeon testify : Quote: “All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” (The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell ch XI)
Even Symeons sons were authorized by Michael and sent to teach of the resurrection of Jesus. However FIRST, they were appointed by Michael to “first to go to the Jordan and be baptized.” “There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again.”
There are other ancient Christian texts that also describe the ancient Christian faith in relation to their dead in this spirit world. For example, the ancient text from the diary of a Christian woman Perpetua (The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity) is the story of a new convert to Christianity. The specific doctrines that this new convert was taught and believed in are quite poignant AND, descriptive terms.
Being “bodiless”, these individuals could not be baptized, though they could make the change of heart associated with faith, humility, repentance, etc. The early textual testimony concerning the two sons of Symeon, describe individual believers in the spirit world were teachers of others, just as those alive with bodies teach and testify of the gospel to others.
Whether moral progress occurs to the spirit before mortality, or during mortality or after mortality, still, changes may occur as long as God allows the individual to chose. The ancient saying in this context of moral change occurring in men is that “God is a dyer. As the good dyes, which are called “true,” dissolve with the things dyed in them, so it is with those whom God has dyed. Since his dyes are immortal, they are immortal by means of his colors. Now God dips what he dips in water." (The gospel of Phillip)
The doctrine of the descensus is foreign to many protestant churches, (though I believe the Catholics retain a version of it as well as of Purgatory) but anciently, the Judao-Christians spoke of the descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death The descent of Christ into this spirit world after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts.
One is The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks he risen Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”
In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying : "I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)
The early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there. Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection :
“Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)
These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were not baptized while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).
“We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....Therefore I say to you all: When you see him, all of you worship him. For now only have you opportunity for repentance because you worshiped idols in the vain world above and sinned. At another time it is impossible” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two)
I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching the gospel, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of men are teaching the gospel to individuals such as the sons of Rabi Simeon, and many testified of gospel truths to the others in the spirit world.
The story continues : “Now when John was thus teaching those who were in Hades, the first-created, the first father Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish you to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent you when I fell into mortal sickness.”
Seth then teaches the others regarding the "oil of mercy" that Adam requested and that Seth was told “go and tell your father that after the completion of fifty-five hundred years from the creation of the world, the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him with that oil. And he shall arise and wash him and his descendants with water and the Holy spirit. And then he shall be healed of every disease....When the patriarchs and prophets heard this, they rejoiced greatly.” This same message was NOT merely for Patriarchs and Prophets, but for all souls there who would listen.
In chapter four, Satan adjures the angel of Hades to prevent Jesus from coming if it is possible, “For I believe that he comes here to raise all the dead”....” and while Satan and Hades were speaking thus to one another, a loud voice like thunder sounded: “Lift up your gates, O rulers, and be lifted up, O everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in”...David said: “Do you not know, blind one, that when I lived in the world, I prophesied that word: ‘Lift up your gates, O rulers?’” (Ps 23:7). Isaiah said: “I foresaw this by the Holy Spirit and wrote: ‘The dead shall arise, and those who are in the tombs shall be raised up, and those who are under the earth shall rejoice (ps 26:19) O death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory.’” .....the gates of brass were broken in pieces and the bars of iron were crushed and all the dead who were bound were loosed from their chains, and we with them. And the King of glory entered in like a man, and all the dark places of Hades were illumined.”.
The sons of Symeon continue to relate that : Quote: Ch VIII ...the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: “Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross. With that he put them all out. “
Importantly, the sons of Symeon testify : Quote: “All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” (The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell ch XI)
Even Symeons sons were authorized by Michael and sent to teach of the resurrection of Jesus. However FIRST, they were appointed by Michael to “first to go to the Jordan and be baptized.” “There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again.”
There are other ancient Christian texts that also describe the ancient Christian faith in relation to their dead in this spirit world. For example, the ancient text from the diary of a Christian woman Perpetua (The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity) is the story of a new convert to Christianity. The specific doctrines that this new convert was taught and believed in are quite poignant AND, descriptive terms.
Last edited:
POST THREE OF THREE
First, Perpetua relates : Quote: “my father, furious at the word ‘Christian,’ threw himself upon me as though to pluck out my eyes but he was satisfied with annoying me;...Then I thanked the Lord for being parted for a few days from my father, and was refreshed by his absence. During those few days we were baptized, and the Holy Spirit bade me make no other petition after the holy water save for bodily endurance. A few days after we were lodged in prison; and I was in great fear, because I had never known such darkness. What a day of horror! Terrible heat, thanks to the crowds! Rough handling by the soldiers! To crown all I was tormented there by anxiety for my baby. (The Passion of Perpetual and Felicity ch three)
Perpetua, who understood the ancient doctrine that all saints were to receive revelation for themselves is asked by her brother to ask God whether they might expect deliverance or ultimately be martyred. Quote: “Then my brother said to me: ‘Lady sister, you are now in great honor, so great indeed that you may well pray for a vision and may well be shown whether suffering or release be in store for you.’ And I who knew myself to have speech of the Lord, for whose sake I had gone through so much, gave confident promise in return, saying : ‘Tomorrow I will bring you word.’
Perpetua understands that she may ask God for revelation in a prayer and has every confidence that her prayer will be answered. She then made her request of God, and received a vision that confirmed they would be martyred and “...at once I told my brother, and we understood that we must suffer, and henceforward began to have no hope in this world.”
Perpetua understood also that she could make specific and limited requests for those who were dead in the same way that she could ask for specific and limited requests for the living. Perpetua had another Brother Dinocrates who had died as a child, untaught and unbaptized and, who, she understood to be in the spirit world with all others who had died. Perpetua relates : Quote: “After a few days, while we were all praying, suddenly in the middle of the prayer I spoke, and uttered the name of Dinocrates...And I saw at once that I was entitled, and ought, to make request for him. And I began to pray much for him...At once on this very night this was shown me. I saw Dinocrates coming forth from a dark place, where there were many other dark places...and the wound which he had when he died was in his face still.... “For him then I had prayed; and there was a great gulf between me and him, so that neither of us could approach the other. There was besides in the very place where dinocrates was a font full of water, the rim of which was above the head of the child; and Dinocrates stood on tiptoe to drink. I grieved that the font should have water in it and that nevertheless he could not drink because of the height of the rim. And I woke and recognized that my brother was in trouble. But I trusted that I could relieve his trouble, and I prayed for him every day until we were transferred to the garrison prison, for we were to fight with the beasts at the garrison games on the Caesar Geta’s birthday.
It is obvious that Perpetua could see both that Dinocrates’ ability to access salvific principles was limited, she “saw at once that I (she) was entitled, and ought to make request for him.”. He was thirsty, but could not drink of the living water.
After making a completely appropriate request for Dinocrates to receive the Gospel she relates in Ch VIII that Quote: “During the daytime, while we stayed in the stocks, this was shown me. I was that same place which I had seen before, and Dinocrates clean in body, well-clothes and refreshed; and where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and the font which I had seen before had its rim lowered to the child’s waist; and there poured water from it unceasingly; and on the rim a golden bowl full of water. And Dinocrates came forward and began to drink from it, and the bowl failed not. And when he had drunk enough of the water, be came forward being glad to play as children will. And I awoke. Then I knew that he had been released from punishment.”
Dinocrates was given the chance to drink of living water of gospel knowledge to the extent he desired. Though Dinocrates never fully accessed the font of water, he did access the part of this living water he could access by virtue of the golden bowl of water. The story of Dinocrates is lost to history at this point.
However, my point in offering such descriptions is not to say all descriptions of “purgatory” are correct, but to offer support to the specific point that the doctrine of a world between death and resurrection/judgement itself was believed by the early Judao-Christians and they would have interpreted scriptures with this context of belief. The Catholics are certainly correct that a version of Purgatory existed in early Judeo-Christian traditions and witnesses.
The second point is that these are examples of what I meant when I said : “Such books added insight and explanation to doctrines found in the Early Christian movement that could have settled many of the later philosophical and religious arguments that sprung up among the many Christian movements and caused so much schism and argument between the later Theologian-derived religious doctrines.” The Catholics are correct that a version of this spirit world / purgatory existed among the early Christian movements and a great deal of early Christian literature describes it in fairly good detail.
The last point is that, if you look at the variety of sources that speak to this specific doctrine, many, many early Judeo-Christian witness exist for this specific doctrine that tell us that the doctrine existed; that it was a fairly mature and detailed doctrine; and that it existed over larger geographical space and for a large amount of time in the early Judeo-Christian movement.
I hope it makes sense why I claimed that many of the early textual witnesses are helpful in clarifying early doctrines and what early Christianity looked like and what sort of themes existed in it's literature.
Clear
δρφυδρω
First, Perpetua relates : Quote: “my father, furious at the word ‘Christian,’ threw himself upon me as though to pluck out my eyes but he was satisfied with annoying me;...Then I thanked the Lord for being parted for a few days from my father, and was refreshed by his absence. During those few days we were baptized, and the Holy Spirit bade me make no other petition after the holy water save for bodily endurance. A few days after we were lodged in prison; and I was in great fear, because I had never known such darkness. What a day of horror! Terrible heat, thanks to the crowds! Rough handling by the soldiers! To crown all I was tormented there by anxiety for my baby. (The Passion of Perpetual and Felicity ch three)
Perpetua, who understood the ancient doctrine that all saints were to receive revelation for themselves is asked by her brother to ask God whether they might expect deliverance or ultimately be martyred. Quote: “Then my brother said to me: ‘Lady sister, you are now in great honor, so great indeed that you may well pray for a vision and may well be shown whether suffering or release be in store for you.’ And I who knew myself to have speech of the Lord, for whose sake I had gone through so much, gave confident promise in return, saying : ‘Tomorrow I will bring you word.’
Perpetua understands that she may ask God for revelation in a prayer and has every confidence that her prayer will be answered. She then made her request of God, and received a vision that confirmed they would be martyred and “...at once I told my brother, and we understood that we must suffer, and henceforward began to have no hope in this world.”
Perpetua understood also that she could make specific and limited requests for those who were dead in the same way that she could ask for specific and limited requests for the living. Perpetua had another Brother Dinocrates who had died as a child, untaught and unbaptized and, who, she understood to be in the spirit world with all others who had died. Perpetua relates : Quote: “After a few days, while we were all praying, suddenly in the middle of the prayer I spoke, and uttered the name of Dinocrates...And I saw at once that I was entitled, and ought, to make request for him. And I began to pray much for him...At once on this very night this was shown me. I saw Dinocrates coming forth from a dark place, where there were many other dark places...and the wound which he had when he died was in his face still.... “For him then I had prayed; and there was a great gulf between me and him, so that neither of us could approach the other. There was besides in the very place where dinocrates was a font full of water, the rim of which was above the head of the child; and Dinocrates stood on tiptoe to drink. I grieved that the font should have water in it and that nevertheless he could not drink because of the height of the rim. And I woke and recognized that my brother was in trouble. But I trusted that I could relieve his trouble, and I prayed for him every day until we were transferred to the garrison prison, for we were to fight with the beasts at the garrison games on the Caesar Geta’s birthday.
It is obvious that Perpetua could see both that Dinocrates’ ability to access salvific principles was limited, she “saw at once that I (she) was entitled, and ought to make request for him.”. He was thirsty, but could not drink of the living water.
After making a completely appropriate request for Dinocrates to receive the Gospel she relates in Ch VIII that Quote: “During the daytime, while we stayed in the stocks, this was shown me. I was that same place which I had seen before, and Dinocrates clean in body, well-clothes and refreshed; and where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and the font which I had seen before had its rim lowered to the child’s waist; and there poured water from it unceasingly; and on the rim a golden bowl full of water. And Dinocrates came forward and began to drink from it, and the bowl failed not. And when he had drunk enough of the water, be came forward being glad to play as children will. And I awoke. Then I knew that he had been released from punishment.”
Dinocrates was given the chance to drink of living water of gospel knowledge to the extent he desired. Though Dinocrates never fully accessed the font of water, he did access the part of this living water he could access by virtue of the golden bowl of water. The story of Dinocrates is lost to history at this point.
However, my point in offering such descriptions is not to say all descriptions of “purgatory” are correct, but to offer support to the specific point that the doctrine of a world between death and resurrection/judgement itself was believed by the early Judao-Christians and they would have interpreted scriptures with this context of belief. The Catholics are certainly correct that a version of Purgatory existed in early Judeo-Christian traditions and witnesses.
The second point is that these are examples of what I meant when I said : “Such books added insight and explanation to doctrines found in the Early Christian movement that could have settled many of the later philosophical and religious arguments that sprung up among the many Christian movements and caused so much schism and argument between the later Theologian-derived religious doctrines.” The Catholics are correct that a version of this spirit world / purgatory existed among the early Christian movements and a great deal of early Christian literature describes it in fairly good detail.
The last point is that, if you look at the variety of sources that speak to this specific doctrine, many, many early Judeo-Christian witness exist for this specific doctrine that tell us that the doctrine existed; that it was a fairly mature and detailed doctrine; and that it existed over larger geographical space and for a large amount of time in the early Judeo-Christian movement.
I hope it makes sense why I claimed that many of the early textual witnesses are helpful in clarifying early doctrines and what early Christianity looked like and what sort of themes existed in it's literature.
Clear
δρφυδρω
Last edited:
I think it is a mistake to believe any man, or a council of men decide the Bible canon. Rather, I believe the Bible's Author, Jehovah, gathered the writings he inspired into the divine library called the Bible today. Thus, "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16,17) Apocryphal additions to the Bible are rejected by true Christians.
jaybird
Member
i think its a mistake to think politics never played a part in these councils decisions.
why would a "true" Christian reject an apocryphal book?
Brian Schuh
Well-Known Member
The Jewish Canon closed at time of Ezra. Jewish believers in Yeshua reopened the canon with a gospel of Mathew, not the same one we have now. The Christian Old Testament canon was based on the Septuagint. Also, Jubilees and Book of Enoch were in high esteem. The Septuagint contained the Apocrypha. These books along with the New Testament were added to the Jewish canon.
To bottom line it, the Apocrypha was no more added to the canon than the New Testament. They were both equally added to the Jewish Bible, which was closed before any of them were written.
True Christians reject them because they are demonstrably no part of God's word. No apocryphal writings were quoted by Jesus Christ or his disciples in the first century. Most are full of myths and superstitions. As IS vol. 1, p.121 explains: "The first-century Jewish historian Josephus shows the recognition given only to those few books (of the Hebrew canon) viewed as sacred, stating: “We do not possess myriads of inconsistent books, conflicting with each other. Our books, those which are justly accredited, are but two and twenty [the equivalent of the 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures according to modern division], and contain the record of all time.” He thereafter clearly shows an awareness of the existence of Apocryphal books and their exclusion from the Hebrew canon by adding: “From Artaxerxes to our own time the complete history has been written, but has not been deemed worthy of equal credit with the earlier records, because of the failure of the exact succession of the prophets.”—Against Apion, I, 38, 41 (8)."
I believe Jehovah has preserved his word from the contamination of such false additions. Thus, the Bible we have today that has been preserved for almost 2,000 years, is indeed God's word.
Brian Schuh
Well-Known Member
Then by same reasoning you must reject the New Testament on same grounds that you reject the Apocrypha. For the canon was closed with the 22 Hebrew books. When the believers in Yeshua reopened the canon after it was already closed in time of Ezra, they accepted the New Testament and the Aprypha as well as Jubilees and Enoch. In fact, St. Jude quoted the book of Enoch. Either have it one way or other. Either the canon was closed with the 22 Hebrew books, or it was reopened to include Apocrypha and New Testament. Which is it?
Then why does the New Testament reference these books dozens upon dozens of times, sometimes quoting them directly?
jaybird
Member
John the baptist quotes from the community rule, one of the scrolls sound among the dead sea scrolls. and by definition this scroll is an apocryphal book . so does this mean John was not a "true" follower of Jesus like the "true" Christians of today?
Brian Schuh
Well-Known Member
The Talmud quotes Sirach (Ecclesiasticus, a book of the Apocrypha) a lot, like it really is a good book. If that doesn't convince you, Talmud speaks highly of Aesop's Fables. Just because a book didn't make it in the canon, doesn't mean much to me. Sirach and Aesop's Fables, if they would have got included, why would that be a bad thing? They are both good books.
I guess what it comes down to, is what does it mean to you that a book is canonical versus "extra biblical"?
I plan to buy the Confucian scriptures. I don't hold them canonical. But I bet they say some good things. What do you personally mean by canonical? Are you willing to read other literature besides that which is canonical? I hope so. A person who only knows the KJV is barely literate. Literacy means to be well read, in one definition of literacy.
I guess what it comes down to, is what does it mean to you that a book is canonical versus "extra biblical"?
I plan to buy the Confucian scriptures. I don't hold them canonical. But I bet they say some good things. What do you personally mean by canonical? Are you willing to read other literature besides that which is canonical? I hope so. A person who only knows the KJV is barely literate. Literacy means to be well read, in one definition of literacy.
I believe the coming of the Messiah or Christ needed to be recorded for our benefit. The early Christians accepted what we today know as the Christian Greek Scriptures as inspired by God. (2 Peter 3:16) Again, it was God, not men, who inspired the writing of his word, set the Bible canon, and preserved his Word, IMO. (2 Timothy 3:16,17)
As to Jude quoting from Enoch, "The Book of Enoch is an apocryphal and pseudepigraphic text. It is falsely ascribed to Enoch. Produced probably sometime during the second and first centuries B.C.E., it is a collection of extravagant and unhistorical Jewish myths, evidently the product of exegetical elaborations on the brief Genesis reference to Enoch. This alone is sufficient for lovers of God’s inspired Word to dismiss it.
In the Bible, only the book of Jude contains Enoch’s prophetic words: “Look! Jehovah came with his holy myriads, to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they did in an ungodly way, and concerning all the shocking things that ungodly sinners spoke against him.” (Jude 14, 15) Many scholars contend that Enoch’s prophecy against his ungodly contemporaries is quoted directly from the Book of Enoch. Is it possible that Jude used an unreliable apocryphal book as his source?
How Jude knew of Enoch’s prophecy is not revealed in the Scriptures. He may simply have quoted a common source, a reliable tradition handed down from remote antiquity. Paul evidently did something similar when he named Jannes and Jambres as the otherwise anonymous magicians of Pharaoh’s court who opposed Moses. If the writer of the Book of Enoch had access to an ancient source of this kind, why should we deny it to Jude?—Exodus 7:11, 22; 2 Timothy 3:8."
(W01 9/15 p.31)
For example?
To what quote do you refer?
Hebrews 11:35 refers directly to 2 Maccabees 7, where a mother and their sons refuse to eat pork and be released from prison in hopes of a better resurrection. http://www.usccb.org/bible/2mc/7
In Acts 10:34, Peter is quoting Wisdom of Sirach, 35:15. http://www.usccb.org/bible/sirach/35
Ephesians 6:13-17 is based on Wisdom 5:15-20. http://www.usccb.org/bible/wisdom/5
Hebrews 1:3 makes reference to Wisdom 7:26. http://www.usccb.org/bible/wisdom/7
Romans 1:20-32 paraphrases Wisdom 13-14. http://www.usccb.org/bible/wisdom/13 http://www.usccb.org/bible/wisdom/14
Romans 2:1-16 is based off Wisdom 11-15, and especially 15:1-6. http://www.usccb.org/bible/wisdom/15
James 1:19 and James 3:3-5 are both based off Sirach 5:13-14. http://www.usccb.org/bible/sirach/5
Matthew 27:39-42 references Wisdom 2:18. http://www.usccb.org/bible/wisdom/2
That'll do for starters.
jaybird
Member
1QS VIII 12-14 ( the community rule)
13. in Israel according to all these rules, they shall separate from the
habitation of ungodly men and shall go into the wilderness to prepare the
way of Him;
14. as it is written, prepare in the wilderness the way of . . . , make straight in
the desert a path for our god
1 Enoch was among the many books found at Qumran. some of these books were canon and some were apocryphal. the community there thought these books were important. and consider the ones at qumran that kept the library, people that wanted nothing to do with the corrupt politics and priesthood of Jerusalem and were doing all they could to live in accordance to the Lords will.
Brian Schuh
Well-Known Member
The Ethiopian Orthodox have the largest canon. 81 books if I remember correctly. It is being translated into English. Can't wait to read it.