the bible canon

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Billiard Ball; Hmm - your list of points above - are actually quite irrelevant - as first - you are speaking ONLY about JEWS and obviously those who were to come to follow Christ, would no longer be Jews at all - entirely different deity according to Christ directly....Yahweh is NOT Our Father He said it blalatantly and for that reason they murder Him..

Weren't accepted by Jewish readers - is irrelevant as said Christ is NOT Jewish - Our Father is NOT the Jewish god..They may well contradict the JEWISH Bible (christian old testamant) - but again that is irrelevant here as Christ has NO AFFILIATION TO THAT GOD...Filthy language..?....What a joke - just read the Jewish original scriptures..

No worse that the OT itself with direct commands to kill and slaughter whole nations, take slaves etc etc etc....The god there is as base as it comes - tells man to murder fellow man to prove loyalty and obediance to the god - utterly despicable - EVIL..Has the Hebrews commit genocide on many neighbouring nations forcing them out of their own lands so that the Hebrews can take it over - and even tells us that the "god" PURPOSEFULLY SET UP THESE CONFLICTS - "hardened the hearts of the enemy" so that they WOULD fight the Hebrews and thus be destroyed...The god WANTS to destroy everyone that doesnt obey it and it has the Hebrews commit all manner of evil acts to accomplish this..

No line of descent..?...That is simple - as said - LEGITIMATE Divine Wisdom is delivered DIRECTLY Divine mind to mortal mind - no middleman intermediary needed - no line of succession needed either - obviously - just need to PERSONALLY invoke that crucial Holy Ghost phenomena is all that is required

Contains no Prophecy..?...lol...except for that rather damning prophecy about this future religion in "Christs name" that is WHOLLY CORRUPT as presented in the ORIGINAL gospel of Judas

Werent quoted by early church writers..??...WHAT A JOKE !!!

You do realise here - the four canon gospels Mat Mark Luke John - dont appear ANYWHERE IN HISTORY IN THEIR CURRENT FORM - not until AFTER that famous nicea meeting - but look closely they contain a very similar narrative - with many many "sayings and acts" of Christ - and ALL these sayinggs and acts are taken DIRECTLY form PRE EXISTANT MANUSCRIPTS - such as for example - the GOSPEL OF THOMAS - which is by far the earliest known gospel ANYWHERE - and which itself contains around 80% of the narrative that will later be used to form "canon gospels"....Literally - all the famous quotes and parables He became famous for and that the bogus church will twist to their own nefarious agenda - all found in THOMAS FIRST - the bible canon is taken directly from THESE ORIGINALS...!!

You seem to pin a great deal of your position here on an erroneous assumption - you seem to think that Christ came from the god of the Jews - but I can and have shown you clearly that is not the case at all - Our Father is NOT that Jewish god - Christ has no affiliation to the Jewish tradtiion at all..

There were hundreds of churches in hundreds of cities and small towns. Where did you get the 100 sects number from?

Exactly that as you say - HUNDREDS - and NONE OF THEM AGREE - all are vying directly for their truth to be accepted !!

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/diversity.html

Christianity did not start out as a unified movement. We have to remember that the disciples were probably dispersed at a very early time.... That is, at a time where there was no fixed formulation what the set of Christian beliefs should be. What Christian rituals should be. What they should think about Jesus or what they should tell about Jesus. The sources that we have tell us that Christianity started as a very diverse movement, as the founding of churches... moved into very different cultural and language contexts....

With this explosive spread of Christian churches, not a very slow moderate growth, getting a few new members every few years, but an explosive spread of this movement, it cannot be expected that everywhere, everybody was doing and believing the same thing, singing the same hymns and reading the same scriptures and telling the same story. So we have a beginning with great diversity, and the slow process, particularly in the second century, to establish a greater unity among the very diverse churches.

Theres a lot more of course - but clearly - obviously - NO - this was not a "unified movement" at all - exactly as I laid it out before...The resurrection caused MAJOR MAJOR upheavels for all these people ..They could not deny its truth - yet neither did they have access to that truth directly and were forced to try to t make sense of it all based on what their RELIGIOUS LEADERS were telling them and truths they already had as foundation - WRONG GOD - not our Father - as He said BEWARE - the blind lead the blind here - follow them and you will all fall in the same hole

The Spirit helped write the NT, and the NT contains statements opposed to what you shared above. The reason why scripture is important is that all beliefs and doctrines must be held up to scripture and cannot be contradictory to itself or the Bible.

Oh PLEASE - wise up my friend !! THINK about what you yourself just wrote...They GAVE you the bible yes..?...Enforced it upon us..Then they tell you that ONLY the bible is truth and forbid you all other wisdom - so they have ENCLOSED YOUR MIND IN THAT ENFORCED TRUTH ALONE !!!

The bible itself CONTRADICTS ITSELF MANY MANY TIMES !!! can you explain that..??...Surely you see - they have literally invented a trap for your mind - here have THIS truth they said, and if anybody else shows you differentn just IGNORE IT becasue if it aint in the bible then we dont want you to know it see..?..They ask you to trust their word - SCARE you into obediance with threats of eternal suffering lol - but you cant trust them at all - just look at church history for the truth of it..They twisted truth and used it like a weapon to dominate your mind - and its working isnt it..?..because look - you just told us - "if it aint bible it aint truth" repeated parrot fashion direct fro the religion itself - WAKE UP my friend - they are misleading you severely...

See if you can follow this - the Holy Ghost - we both agree is crucial yes..?..And you think that by following bible we can attain this gift yes..?....

Well a question then - WHY did they ban anything as herasy...??...If they are telling the truth - then we could read the bible and get the Holy Ghost for our SELF yes..?...Then we could quite happily read any damn book we wanted, safe and secure this Holy Ghost would guide us in truth ALWAYS........Except of course - that doesnt happen does it..?..

Were SUPPOSED to be PROTECTED once we have this in place - right..?...Supposedly it alone brings truth - and yet they INSIST still that we are NOT ALLLOWED to knwo the CONTENT of certian other none bible gosples...WHAT ARE THEY EVEN AFRAID OF..??....I mean THINK abou tit - IF we had this legitimate gift, then we are incorruptable - SAVED as they term it and should then be able to read any damn scripture at all and decide for ourselves truth with this inner guide.....

That DOESNT HAPPEN....The Holy Ghost is in affect WITH HELD from you - its legitimate truth is CONTAINED WITHIN the very gospels they FORBID you to know about !! They HAVE trapped you in a self containing LIE and closed off all avenues of knowledge - go to bible alone they say REJECT all else.....The truth they gave you is a tool they use to MANIPULATE and DOMINATE you..

See it clearly - your man JOHN - writes many many gospels - ALL those he claims DIRECTLY become banned as "herasy" yet all those that simply carry his name but are ABSOLUTELY NOT written by him directly, are sanctioned as "truth"...lol...its a FARCE !! One minute - John is a SAINT - next he is a lost hopeless devil spawn preaching heretical nonesense they say...Al ways around they are DECEIVING you...Wise Up my friend...

 

[BilliardsBall]

the Essenes were a sect of Jews that did not reject them. of all the sects of Jews that Jesus was critical, He says nothing against the essenes. i wonder why?

Glad you asked. Another question with a simple, logical answer. The Essenes were recluses with very high Messianic myths and expectations. It makes sense that they would promote the apocrypha.

Jesus didn't say anything against the Essenes, who only wanted to live in the desert, write theology and await a Messiah. He said nothing against the Herodians who usurped the throne, the false high priests who were appointed in error, the Zealots who sought to take the Kingdom by might, etc. ...

 

[BilliardsBall]

Hi Folks..

Billiard Ball; Hmm - your list of points above - are actually quite irrelevant - as first - you are speaking ONLY about JEWS and obviously those who were to come to follow Christ, would no longer be Jews at all - entirely different deity according to Christ directly....Yahweh is NOT Our Father He said it blalatantly and for that reason they murder Him..

Weren't accepted by Jewish readers - is irrelevant as said Christ is NOT Jewish - Our Father is NOT the Jewish god..They may well contradict the JEWISH Bible (christian old testamant) - but again that is irrelevant here as Christ has NO AFFILIATION TO THAT GOD...Filthy language..?....What a joke - just read the Jewish original scriptures..

No worse that the OT itself with direct commands to kill and slaughter whole nations, take slaves etc etc etc....The god there is as base as it comes - tells man to murder fellow man to prove loyalty and obediance to the god - utterly despicable - EVIL..Has the Hebrews commit genocide on many neighbouring nations forcing them out of their own lands so that the Hebrews can take it over - and even tells us that the "god" PURPOSEFULLY SET UP THESE CONFLICTS - "hardened the hearts of the enemy" so that they WOULD fight the Hebrews and thus be destroyed...The god WANTS to destroy everyone that doesnt obey it and it has the Hebrews commit all manner of evil acts to accomplish this..

No line of descent..?...That is simple - as said - LEGITIMATE Divine Wisdom is delivered DIRECTLY Divine mind to mortal mind - no middleman intermediary needed - no line of succession needed either - obviously - just need to PERSONALLY invoke that crucial Holy Ghost phenomena is all that is required

Contains no Prophecy..?...lol...except for that rather damning prophecy about this future religion in "Christs name" that is WHOLLY CORRUPT as presented in the ORIGINAL gospel of Judas

Werent quoted by early church writers..??...WHAT A JOKE !!!

You do realise here - the four canon gospels Mat Mark Luke John - dont appear ANYWHERE IN HISTORY IN THEIR CURRENT FORM - not until AFTER that famous nicea meeting - but look closely they contain a very similar narrative - with many many "sayings and acts" of Christ - and ALL these sayinggs and acts are taken DIRECTLY form PRE EXISTANT MANUSCRIPTS - such as for example - the GOSPEL OF THOMAS - which is by far the earliest known gospel ANYWHERE - and which itself contains around 80% of the narrative that will later be used to form "canon gospels"....Literally - all the famous quotes and parables He became famous for and that the bogus church will twist to their own nefarious agenda - all found in THOMAS FIRST - the bible canon is taken directly from THESE ORIGINALS...!!

You seem to pin a great deal of your position here on an erroneous assumption - you seem to think that Christ came from the god of the Jews - but I can and have shown you clearly that is not the case at all - Our Father is NOT that Jewish god - Christ has no affiliation to the Jewish tradtiion at all..



Exactly that as you say - HUNDREDS - and NONE OF THEM AGREE - all are vying directly for their truth to be accepted !!

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/diversity.html





Theres a lot more of course - but clearly - obviously - NO - this was not a "unified movement" at all - exactly as I laid it out before...The resurrection caused MAJOR MAJOR upheavels for all these people ..They could not deny its truth - yet neither did they have access to that truth directly and were forced to try to t make sense of it all based on what their RELIGIOUS LEADERS were telling them and truths they already had as foundation - WRONG GOD - not our Father - as He said BEWARE - the blind lead the blind here - follow them and you will all fall in the same hole



Oh PLEASE - wise up my friend !! THINK about what you yourself just wrote...They GAVE you the bible yes..?...Enforced it upon us..Then they tell you that ONLY the bible is truth and forbid you all other wisdom - so they have ENCLOSED YOUR MIND IN THAT ENFORCED TRUTH ALONE !!!

The bible itself CONTRADICTS ITSELF MANY MANY TIMES !!! can you explain that..??...Surely you see - they have literally invented a trap for your mind - here have THIS truth they said, and if anybody else shows you differentn just IGNORE IT becasue if it aint in the bible then we dont want you to know it see..?..They ask you to trust their word - SCARE you into obediance with threats of eternal suffering lol - but you cant trust them at all - just look at church history for the truth of it..They twisted truth and used it like a weapon to dominate your mind - and its working isnt it..?..because look - you just told us - "if it aint bible it aint truth" repeated parrot fashion direct fro the religion itself - WAKE UP my friend - they are misleading you severely...

See if you can follow this - the Holy Ghost - we both agree is crucial yes..?..And you think that by following bible we can attain this gift yes..?....

Well a question then - WHY did they ban anything as herasy...??...If they are telling the truth - then we could read the bible and get the Holy Ghost for our SELF yes..?...Then we could quite happily read any damn book we wanted, safe and secure this Holy Ghost would guide us in truth ALWAYS........Except of course - that doesnt happen does it..?..

Were SUPPOSED to be PROTECTED once we have this in place - right..?...Supposedly it alone brings truth - and yet they INSIST still that we are NOT ALLLOWED to knwo the CONTENT of certian other none bible gosples...WHAT ARE THEY EVEN AFRAID OF..??....I mean THINK abou tit - IF we had this legitimate gift, then we are incorruptable - SAVED as they term it and should then be able to read any damn scripture at all and decide for ourselves truth with this inner guide.....

That DOESNT HAPPEN....The Holy Ghost is in affect WITH HELD from you - its legitimate truth is CONTAINED WITHIN the very gospels they FORBID you to know about !! They HAVE trapped you in a self containing LIE and closed off all avenues of knowledge - go to bible alone they say REJECT all else.....The truth they gave you is a tool they use to MANIPULATE and DOMINATE you..

See it clearly - your man JOHN - writes many many gospels - ALL those he claims DIRECTLY become banned as "herasy" yet all those that simply carry his name but are ABSOLUTELY NOT written by him directly, are sanctioned as "truth"...lol...its a FARCE !! One minute - John is a SAINT - next he is a lost hopeless devil spawn preaching heretical nonesense they say...Al ways around they are DECEIVING you...Wise Up my friend...

1. We can reconstruct the entire NT including the gospels from early letters, except for a few dozen verses.

2. Of course Father God is still the Jewish God, has never left or divorced Israel, and of course Jesus was never anything besides Jewish. Jeremiah says God will abandon Israel when the sun and stars cease to shine. Hosea says God is still wed to backslidden Northern Israel, and they had not one good king.

3. My encouragement is to study the scriptures to see if they bear out your doctrines. I do not accept "inspiration" or "prophecy" that contradicts God's Word.

4. The Bible doesn't contain contradictions. I've personally had people bring me many contradictions, and then studied each one... out.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

................. Jesus taught on much more than salvation. many believe salvation is just the beginning.

But ' salvation ' from what ? ' salvation is just the beginning ', and Jesus taught on much more than 'just' salvation - Matthew 24:13
Luke 4:43 was the main theme of Jesus' teaching, which is about the good news of God's kingdom government, Not the good news of salvation.
God's kingdom government would be the 'one' government that would be left standing to govern Earth according to Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:13-14
Man's kingdoms or governments have Not been able to establish Peace on Earth, but Jesus, as Prince of Peace, and King (ruler) of God's Kingdom, can and will.
We are nearing the soon coming ' time of separation' - Matthew 25:31-33,37 - when the humble ' sheep'-like people on Earth will gain salvation: meaning being saved ( delivered / rescued) alive through the coming great tribulation on Earth of Revelation 7:14, and to continue living on Earth right into the beginning of Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth begins. So, salvation is just the beginning of living forever ' everlasting life ' on a beautiful paradisical Earth under righteous conditions.
- Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14; Proverbs 2:21-22

 

[jaybird]

Glad you asked. Another question with a simple, logical answer. The Essenes were recluses with very high Messianic myths and expectations. It makes sense that they would promote the apocrypha.

not sure recluse would be the proper term, i would call them ascetic. they did separate themselves out in the desert. why would they do that? they wanted no part of the corruption that was going on in Jerusalem. they lived lives of total self sacrifice, yet you act as if they are a bunch of halfwits. their minds seemed to be very devoted to serving our Lord with few other concerns, what other agenda would they have out there in the desert. these roman councils you put so much faith in, im sure they wanted to serve as well but also had other things on their mind such as personal wealth, political ambitions and staying on the emperors good side.

you also have the septuagint which was put together around 200 bc which also had these apocrypha books. if many of the Apostles were teaching in Greece, speaking in Greek and writing in Greek, which collection of books you think they would have used when doing their assembly readings?

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Billiard Ball;

We can reconstruct the entire NT including the gospels from early letters, except for a few dozen verses.

Hmm - I would agree entirely - except I add the fact that actually MOST of the canon narratives comes from the ORIGINAL gospels written by the Disciples themselves - and the canon actually contains no such first hand testimony at all now....And look - there was NO NEED to "CONSTRUCT" anything - was there..?....NO - if we are to have Christ truth then they SHOULD have just left us the ORIGINAL thoughts and words as RECORDED BY THE DISCIPLES - ORIGINAL TRUTH - fact is though, they DID meddle alter and MISREPRESENT that original truth to suit their own POLITICAL agendas of societal domination..Absolutely undeniable....Therefore I tell you All as He did - shun and avoid that religion and the "truths" they teach you to obey - they ARE misleading you on pupoose and He already warned you (all) clearly..

Of course we SHOULD EXPECT to be able to "construct" the entire NT from those earlier writings - OF COURSE WE CAN - havent I told you all along..?...The bible is MANUFACTURED to suit an agenda - and it is made up FROM ALL THOSE PRE EXISTANT TEXTS - ORIGINAL TRUTH - became twisted truth to suit church agenda so yes of course their version is coming directly from the original...The catholics even admit this is exactly what they did - chose what suited - discarded the rest - FORBAD us from ever learning ORIGINAL truth at all as they then made these rejected books HERASY punishable by DEATH and set about - as we know - stamping out all traces of original truth replacing it world over with enforced "catholic doctrine"...Again - roundion a circle they lead you..Wise up...

Of course Father God is still the Jewish God, has never left or divorced Israel, and of course Jesus was never anything besides Jewish. Jeremiah says God will abandon Israel when the sun and stars cease to shine. Hosea says God is still wed to backslidden Northern Israel, and they had not one good king.

Ah my friend you are ignoring actual history here though - first - YES - the god of the Jews DID abandon them - even BEFORE Christ came the god had been SILENT already for like over 300 years - their last bona fide prophet was a man named Malachi - and the god declared openly at that time that Malachi would be its last prophet to them..I will tell you here that the god already knew Christ was to intervene and quite literally gave up its claim of dominion here and it was agreed already that Christ would rectify the situation under His authority alone - the god Yahweh did NOT "send" Christ at all - nobody did - He came at His own volition and instigated it all by His own Will and free choice..

When Christ came the Jews had no actual means to contact their god directly - no prophet at all and it had been that way for centuries already - and besides this first obvious partial abandonment by the god directly - lets not forget it will then go on some 600 years after Christ to abandon the Jews entirely in favour of a NEW NATION and NEW RELIGION - same god same angels DIFFERENT truth given to Mohamed and the god reveals itself again NEW not as Yahweh but now as Allah - exact same god exact same group of Angels of course as Elohim not truly Divine at all - but rather they are more like a distinct SPECIES of CREATURE - this one changed its mind it seems and declares ISLAM to be the legitimate and final "covenant"....

And Christ DID tell us SPECIFICALLY that this Jewish god is a lesser ANGEL that is tricking and deceiving them all - and just look at the gods actual history with us and we see that yes indeed, throughout it all, it HAS lied manipulated changed its truth as it saw fit.....And that truth doesnt even start with the Jews at all - but way way way before them - in SUMER - we find the origin of ALL the Jewish lore that would follow...MANY GODS - Anunaki as they famously are known today - as I recently posted elsewhere - Elohim - is a SPECIES OF CREATURE - a RACE OF BEINGS - a plural noun for a COLLECTION of people... I am Pete an individual member of the HUMAN race and we are all one species - just as Yahweh is an individual among the race of Elohim and they too are a SPECIES - not gods at all - CREATURES like You and I..

Christ explained in full detail how they came to be here and how we in our turn came to be here after them..TWO entirely seperate parts of Creation - one fully under the domain of a TRINITY Divine mind - and this one here under the control of Yahweh and his entourage..Read the ORIGINAL gospel of John for the full details -learn who and what the true Divine are (existing as pure spirit, fully ABSTRACT no material forms at all,that then go on to cause the creation to come forth - they are a MIND) - read even, a full explanation of HOW and WHY this Creation happens at all...Learn next the order and succession of HOW that creation is arranged - a nested spherical reality with realms existing WITHIN other realms - the Divine mind literally divides itself and becomes the material forms and the Souls that inhabit them - ONE mind with a Trinity persona fully in charge of it all..

Keep reading it to learn of a mistake in creation - where one member of this Divine Trinity, attempts to create ALONE without the Christ - the result is a malformed Creature - a DRAGON that She then "casts out of heaven" and so your Bible twisting begins..Keep reading it still to learn and see Christ say directly that this malformed AGGEL will go on to directly create mankind upon the Earth...There is no mistake - He is VERY CLEAR - He came from a an ENTIRELY SEPERATE REALM that He said specifically no Soul here had ever encountered, not even those we call "gods above"...This one Yahweh, IS tricking us claiming a false superiority and dominating us all into false obediance to it..

. My encouragement is to study the scriptures to see if they bear out your doctrines. I do not accept "inspiration" or "prophecy" that contradicts God's Word.

My friend - thats the whole point - they have DECEIVED YOU - all the scripture they PERMIT you to read, is the stuff they MANUFACTURED - and ALL ELSE IS FORBIDDEN TO YOU AS HERASY !!

Surely you can see that..??...They HAVE made an indoctrinated prison for your mind - self enclosed - go to SANCTIONED bible and ONLY sanctioned bible - reject all else out of hand.....They have TRAPPED you in their lies..None of the so called scripture is "gods word2 at all - it ALL came form those same Elohim - a race of CREATURES like You and I...NOT the SOURCE of Creation itself - an end result of the process - again,EXACTLY like You and I...These we call "gods" are not fully Divine at all - NOT according to Christ direclty - who then proved His claim of course - those pesky miracles that lets not forget - NO PRIEST OF YAHWEH could manage - yet Christ alone does with a mere touch and a spoken Word...He told the Jewish priests that their god is not His Father and that none of them knew His truth - never before been encountered by any Soul HERE He said - you cannot do such miraculous things at all as yourr god is a much lesser god - only an Angel He told them - whereas I am Christ and CAN do these things as My Father is the LEGITIMATE SOURCE OF CREATION ITSELF...

Because of this direct threat they plot to murder Him silence Him - and its continued even to this day - the religion is just one tool they use - a self enclosed prison for the mind - keep you locked at the surface mind here so you wont discover the legitimate Divinity that already indwells you - keep you jumping hoops and running in circles so you will miss that vital inner communion entirely as you busily follow THEM and their dictates always - and just to keep you occupied and in fear of your very lives always - they then pit you all one against the other - christian v muslim v jew in never ending conflict - all in the name of the one "true god" - and all the while that gods domination deepens and deepens and those who have power here KEEP power here just as they intended always....

WISE UP my friend(s) - that god is not what it appears to be - not at all....For those with ears to hear...

 

[BilliardsBall]

But ' salvation ' from what ? ' salvation is just the beginning ', and Jesus taught on much more than 'just' salvation - Matthew 24:13
Luke 4:43 was the main theme of Jesus' teaching, which is about the good news of God's kingdom government, Not the good news of salvation.
God's kingdom government would be the 'one' government that would be left standing to govern Earth according to Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:13-14
Man's kingdoms or governments have Not been able to establish Peace on Earth, but Jesus, as Prince of Peace, and King (ruler) of God's Kingdom, can and will.
We are nearing the soon coming ' time of separation' - Matthew 25:31-33,37 - when the humble ' sheep'-like people on Earth will gain salvation: meaning being saved ( delivered / rescued) alive through the coming great tribulation on Earth of Revelation 7:14, and to continue living on Earth right into the beginning of Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth begins. So, salvation is just the beginning of living forever ' everlasting life ' on a beautiful paradisical Earth under righteous conditions.
- Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14; Proverbs 2:21-22

Yes. The Bible teaches on far more subjects than salvation. But, since we can be selfishly minded, what are the three most important doctrines for us in the Bible?

1. How can I be saved?
2. Can I lose this salvation once I've received it?
3. What will happen in the end times (if we're living in the end times)?

Unfortunately, the Jehovah's Witness movement takes the wrong view on all three of these doctrines, and not the Bible's view.

 

[BilliardsBall]

not sure recluse would be the proper term, i would call them ascetic. they did separate themselves out in the desert. why would they do that? they wanted no part of the corruption that was going on in Jerusalem. they lived lives of total self sacrifice, yet you act as if they are a bunch of halfwits. their minds seemed to be very devoted to serving our Lord with few other concerns, what other agenda would they have out there in the desert. these roman councils you put so much faith in, im sure they wanted to serve as well but also had other things on their mind such as personal wealth, political ambitions and staying on the emperors good side.

you also have the septuagint which was put together around 200 bc which also had these apocrypha books. if many of the Apostles were teaching in Greece, speaking in Greek and writing in Greek, which collection of books you think they would have used when doing their assembly readings?

I don't put much faith in the Roman councils, as you wrote. I see, though, that the Roman councils made the correct decision.

The apostles would have continued the traditional Jewish readings, which include zero apocrypha. The apostles also--as you wrote--had the apocrypha bundled in the Septuagint, and never quoted it in the NT despite using the Septuagint for all of their OT quotations! (The sole arguable quote is in Jude, the question is which came first, Jude's revelation or the apocryphal letter it "quotes".)

The Septuagint containing apocrypha which the apostles/NT writers never cite is one of the strongest cases against the apocrypha, in addition to the 8 or 9 other things I've noted, that the Councils also saw.

 

[BilliardsBall]

No, we have the original gospels. You may want to study the formation of the canon, as should jaybird, since there is great reason to believe the entire canon was accepted as canon, and not the apocrypha, before the first councils ever met.

Ah my friend you are ignoring actual history here though - first - YES - the god of the Jews DID abandon them - even BEFORE Christ came the god had been SILENT already for like over 300 years - their last bona fide prophet was a man named Malachi

Another reason to reject intertestamental apocrypha, as it was all written after Malachi.

And Christ DID tell us SPECIFICALLY that this Jewish god is a lesser ANGEL that is tricking and deceiving them all

Source, please.

Elohim - is a SPECIES OF CREATURE - a RACE OF BEINGS - a plural noun for a COLLECTION of people...

Elohim is plural majesty, like a king who says we, or a God in three persons.

Surely you can see that..??...They HAVE made an indoctrinated prison for your mind - self enclosed - go to SANCTIONED bible and ONLY sanctioned bible - reject all else out of hand.....They have TRAPPED you in their lies

I don’t feel that way. I feel that I was set free after trusting the NT authors and trusting Jesus for salvation. I don’t feel trapped in lies because I know of the Bible codes and Greek gematria, and because I have studied the Bible with great care and found it without error.

you locked at the surface mind here so you wont discover the legitimate Divinity that already indwells you

Of course He indwells us, “in Him we live and move and have our being”.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What will happen in the end times of badness on Earth before Jesus begins his millennial-long day of governing over Earth is found at Matthew 25:31-33,37

 

[jaybird]

I don't put much faith in the Roman councils, as you wrote. I see, though, that the Roman councils made the correct decision.

The apostles would have continued the traditional Jewish readings, which include zero apocrypha. The apostles also--as you wrote--had the apocrypha bundled in the Septuagint, and never quoted it in the NT despite using the Septuagint for all of their OT quotations! (The sole arguable quote is in Jude, the question is which came first, Jude's revelation or the apocryphal letter it "quotes".)

The Septuagint containing apocrypha which the apostles/NT writers never cite is one of the strongest cases against the apocrypha, in addition to the 8 or 9 other things I've noted, that the Councils also saw.

never quoted in the NT? interesting.
so what of these teachings -
a tree and its fruit
do onto others
store up treasures in heaven
show me in the canon (roman council approved) books where these teachings are? they are in the apocrypha and these are not Apostles these are teaching of Jesus.
the pharisees were familiar with them as well. when they tested Jesus on the woman with all the dead husbands, its a story from Tobet. this would have been a perfect opportunity for Jesus to correct everyone on the proper authority of these books, yet He does not.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks...

Billiard Ball;

No, we have the original gospels. You may want to study the formation of the canon, as should jaybird, since there is great reason to believe the entire canon was accepted as canon, and not the apocrypha, before the first councils ever met.

Ah my friend - Look - it doesnt really matter what the JEWISH religion accepted at all as Christ said openly that THAT god Yahweh is NOT EVEN OUR FATHER !!

And every other scripture you present is ALSO of that same Jewish god,isnt it..?. WRONG GOD MY FRIEND - not the god of Christ at all...You ask me for a source - and I have offered it repeatedly - read the ORIGINAL gospels that were written DIRECTLY by the disciples !!! NO - the canon that appears in your sanctioned bible is NOT the original truth at all - as we all know and agree that the canon we have now is MANUFACTURED as you said yourself, and I agree, it is taken directly form HUNDREDS of PRE EXISTANT manuscripts.....It is literally CUT AND PASTE to then present a single church agenda narrative - a twisting of truth that they use to dominate you all fully - that they then enforced as "legitimate catholic truth" and that they then eradicated ALL the orginal truth they could find through endless crusades and inquistiions and witch hunts etc etc and simply killed anybody who disagreed...DIDNT THEY....??????

Undeniable - the Catholics even fully admit that this is where your bible comes from...Take those religious blinkers off my friend - open your mind a little..Here is the ORIGINAL gospel of John - AUTHORED by him DIRECTLY - CLAIMED by him directly - and that again, is legitimate credentials that NO "bible canon" can even claim..

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn-davies.html

That will give you the most details...Having read that first, then cross referance here with Judas for example to see there is no mistake...

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/_pdf/GospelofJudas.pdf

See the narratave unfold as said - from the very BEGINNING - my Fathers very first stirring Self aware impulse - through to the creation of the Angel who resembles a dragon - how that one is cast away, seperate isolated - how it in its turn creates mankind here on the Earth directly....The rest is twisted history as we are learning...Bible genesis for example - is a very very sparse description compared to THIS original truth - and note there in the bible version - creation has ALREADY BEGUN when we first encounter this god...It tells us it fashons heaven and Earth - and that the base ingrediants for this process are ALREADY PRESENT HERE - "waters" exist though this commodity is not explained at all - a place of "darkness" likewise exists though again this not explained either - the EARTH itself ALREADY exists it says but is barren and without form...See then here already before this god "speaks" a single command - these things ALREADY EXIST - chinks of "rock" such as an unformed Earth - with another different commodity that is termed "waters" - and both these things (probably a lot more not mentioned) exist in a realm of darkness that ALREADY EXISTS when this god is first mentioned....The "god" created NONE of it - but became Self aware and these things ALREADY present..

All this "god" in genesis actually did was use what was here already - it did NOT CREATE IT DIRECTLY - and that is abundantly clear in BOTH accounts !!!

Read that ORIGINAL John though..THIS is the start of it all Christ said..ALL CREATION flows from this Primal Sovereign Spirit that Christ alone knows...He will lay out for you PRECISELY who and what the Father is - He will lay out for you HOW and WHY the creation even happened at all - He will then tell you as said before - WHAT gets created by WHOM and in what SUCCESSIVE ORDER - the whole heirachy will be laid out for you plaint to see....Unmistakably - you will see the creation of a lone Angel who resembles a dragon - and it IS this one who is placed here in THIS realm - seperate isolated alone - hence when it awakes it self it does indeed inhabit a realm that is ALREADY CREATED with bare ingrediants in place here already just waiting for his semi divine mind to influence their material formations...Read the ORIGINAL John for a FULL EXPLANATION as to how this Creation process ACTUALLY HAPPENS - even the why it happens, explained in FULL DETAIL there, but such essential crucial critical wisdom, is all rather conspicuously MISSING from the bible account...Isnt it..??...

The bible simply cannot tell you such truth as the god there is NOT THE SOURCE OF CREATION - Christ though - the WORD of Creation itself - integral to a Trinity mind that CAUSES ALL EXISTANCE - so yes, HE ALONE knows this truth, and He alone explained it FULLY in that ORIGINAL gospel of His disciple John...

TWO SEPERATE REALMS - this one under domain of a much lesser semi divine being....ALL truth of THIS realm comes FROM that "god" and its Angelic messengers - these have given mankind ALL our "spiritual truth" EVERY RELIGION the world over has encountered these SAME group of Angels under many disguises,personas and adopted characters...They are all ELOHIM - a RACE OF CREATURES - not gods at all - semi divine - not the SOURCE of Creation - only a CREATURE exactly like You and I..Read these two original gospels first and you will see the things I present here are quite undeniable...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

never quoted in the NT? interesting.
so what of these teachings -
a tree and its fruit
do onto others
store up treasures in heaven
show me in the canon (roman council approved) books where these teachings are? they are in the apocrypha and these are not Apostles these are teaching of Jesus.
the pharisees were familiar with them as well. when they tested Jesus on the woman with all the dead husbands, its a story from Tobet. this would have been a perfect opportunity for Jesus to correct everyone on the proper authority of these books, yet He does not.

Where does Jesus say that anything in the old Hebrew Scriptures are wrong ?
tree and its fruit - Matthew 7:17-19
do onto others - Matthew 7:12
store up treasures in heaven - Matthew 6:19-21
Didn't Jesus often preface his statements with the words, " it is written " meaning already written down in the old Hebrew Scriptures. Luke chapter 4
The apocryphal books exclude themselves being out of harmony with the ' 66' harmonious Bible books.
The ' 66' have parallel or corresponding cross-reference verses and passages showing the internal harmony among the Bible writers.
Remember: the heavenly calling only started with the death of Jesus, Not before - John 3:13, even King David did Not go to heaven - Acts of the Apostles 2:34

 

[jaybird]

Where does Jesus say that anything in the old Hebrew Scriptures are wrong ?
tree and its fruit - Matthew 7:17-19
do onto others - Matthew 7:12
store up treasures in heaven - Matthew 6:19-21
Didn't Jesus often preface his statements with the words, " it is written " meaning already written down in the old Hebrew Scriptures. Luke chapter 4
The apocryphal books exclude themselves being out of harmony with the ' 66' harmonious Bible books.
The ' 66' have parallel or corresponding cross-reference verses and passages showing the internal harmony among the Bible writers.
Remember: the heavenly calling only started with the death of Jesus, Not before - John 3:13, even King David did Not go to heaven - Acts of the Apostles 2:34

where does Jesus say something was wrong? dont know what your talking about?

so all these teachings Jesus gave us from these books dont count because he didnt say "as its written" u got to be kidding. so Jesus used these teaching, which can only be found in Apocrypha. to just mess with us? why would He do that.

the issue has never been aboout divine inspiration or harmony

300 - 250 bc (about) the greek Septuagint was written which contained most of (the ones in question) the apocrypha. the book was widely used, no one had a problem with it. it was not until Jesus came, taught, ascended and His teachings started to spread, now all of a sudden we have the council of Jamnia, 90AD a council lead by pharisees, the same guys John the baptist called a den of vipers, and for some reason they all of a sudden had issues with the books they never had issues with before.
the essenes, a monastic sect of Jews that lived in the desert because they wanted no part of the corruption in Jerusalem had no problem with these books.
the next big issue comes when the protestants wanted to separate from Catholics. they didnt want the books cause they didnt like the doctrines they supported so they called them non inspired which makes it sound like they are anti christian which if they were they would have never been included in the first place.
Jesus has many teachings that have parallel teachings in these books, and only those books. hard to believe He would do that with books He didnt want us to read.
they had been using the Septuagint (with apocrypha) for 200 years, people knew it well. Jesus not once rebukes it. we have tons of teachings on Jesus correcting people on when they have done things wrong, but not once does He mention we have bad books in the bible. if there was a problem He would have mentioned it.
you can scream all day whether the books are inspired or out of harmony not but it dont take a rocket scientist to see that the real issues had to do with Jews, Catholics and Protestants using them to separate themselves from one another, and to conform to doctrines of man.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

URaVIP2ME;

Where does Jesus say that anything in the old Hebrew Scriptures are wrong ?

Love the name btw - I sincerely wish more people shared that philosophy and Self understanding..

Christ and scripture though - actually - none of these Jewish scripture applies to Christ at all - He is NOT affiliated with THAT god at all and made it very VERY plain - as said, He explains EVERYTHING inthe ORIGINAL scripture and the ONLY reliable source are those who walked and talked with Him DIRECTLY.....In short - if its not written DIRECTLY by a DISCIPLE - if its not CLAIMED directly by a disciple - then really its nto even worth the paper it is written on...The whole NEW testamant is a FRAUD - cut n paste from ORIGINAL manuscripts - so if its not th eORIGINAL then it is WORTHLESS, given to us to suit CHURCH AGENDA always - EDITED to reflect ONLY WHAT THEY DESIRE......

And the OLD testamant original JEWISH lore - again - worthless - if we want Christs truth as He does NOT represent that deity at all and made that abundantly clear...Like laid out it all out step by step abundantly clear so there is no chance of misconception....

Didn't Jesus often preface his statements with the words, " it is written " meaning already written down in the old Hebrew Scriptures.

NO He didnt actually - You are clearly referencing here the so called "sermon on the mount" - the ORIGINAL of which is found not in the Bible at all , but in THOMAS..But, as you deal with bible scripture lets stick with that then, as actually Christ is saying there a NEW interpretation entirely - REPLACING the old Jewish "wisdom" with His own interpretations..Such as Matthew bible canon - shows us clearly - He REPEATEDLY reinterprets their traditions - NOT AGREEING with them at all - CHANGING - REPLACING - such as when He says...

You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ...............................

Fill in the blank with any of their accepted commands - and look next as He says

But I tell you now...........

as he then goes on to RE INTERPRET and REPLACE old teaching with NEW..He does this many times - especially this sermon - a specific list here in Matthew would become known as the "beatitudes" - where Christ is in affect telling them all firstly that they dont know HOW to even follow the Father and that their leaders are frauds, so He REPLACES their traditonal teaching with words of His own...He is ALWAYS doing this - OPPOSED to the established religion at every opportunity...When we read the ORIGINAL truth He gave DIRECTLY to His disciples it soon becomes pretty clear why they felt it necassary to MURDER Him.....Let it sink in Folks - they MURDER HIM !!

He is NOT their ally - He is not for their cause - He is NOT for their "god"...He IS though -ACTIVELY against the religion and its pharisee authority - HE IS constantly telling peopel to AVOID THE TEMPLE and have NO PART in the religion at all...He IS THEIR ENEMY - and such a serious threat to them DIRECTLY that they MURDER HIM !!!!!

Folks - DO try to LET IT SINK IN DEEP.....The fact that the JEWISH authority act to SILENCE HIM - tells us all we need to know about His TRUE affiliation....He taught of an entirely UNKNOWN and LEGITIMATE Divinity and at the same time told the Jews their "god" was trickster Angel....WISE UP !!!

Here - some ORIGINAL scripture direct from the hands of those who ACTUALLY walked and talked with Him IN LIFE...THIS is what He truly thinks of the religion...Thomas :

If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the Father's kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the Father's kingdom is within you and it is outside you.
When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

So He tells us up front those who we allow to "lead us" DO NOT KNOW TRUTH !!
He then says the thing we seek - this Kingdom - is to be found WITHIN you - and the way to discover this is to come to KNOW THE SELF FULLY......Understand then - NOBODY ELSE can ever possibly teach you about your own INNER mind..NO priest, no religion - NOTHING EXTERNAL can EVER possibly show you what you are IN YOUR OWN MIND !!! And He says if you truly want this Kingdom then you MUST come to know the Self FULLY and COMPLETELY...Folks - its not about religion or institution or dominance and heirachy - Its ALL ABOUT OUR OWN MIND - NOT ABOUT the temple or religion - not at all !!

"I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it until it blazes." 11. Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will not die.

And so He starts to literally RE EDUCATE THEM about the TRUTH of their situation....Note He already warns them there will be CONFLICT - He says clearly He has set a fire now that will become a blaze to consume it all...He explains the first of their learned errors taught by those who led them astray - He says their ideas of life and death are utterly wrong and hints to them that they ALREADY have an ETERNAL SOUL - ( according to their tradtiton though our eternal status has to be first earned by obediance and worship to their god - here though He tells them up front such ideas of an afterlife are WRONG and that ALREADY they have an eternal Soul...Other teaching will of course bring this aspect to light, a full description of how to come to his Self understanding - but for now, I will concentrate on His direct OPPOSITION to all that religion that came before...He is ENTIRELY against it ALWAYS !!

"Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.
For there will be five in a house: there'll be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father, and they will stand alone."

Getting in yet Folks..??...OPPOSITION - He says blatantly that His NEW teaching will totally divide the Jewish race..UNDENIABLE - there is NO HARMONY here between HIS teaching and the old Jewish way - totally in opposition ALWAYS !! But look - He follows this with a PROMISE..

"I will give you what no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, what no hand has touched, what has not arisen in the human heart."

Again He speaks openly of SECRETS that NO MORTAL has EVER comprehended....REPEATED elsewhere many times many places...Follow Him He says and learn truths that are TOTALLY NEW....Look then - CANNOT BE YAHWEH - CANNOT BE the Jewish religion at all - they are ALREADY Jewish - ALREADY know that god fully and intimately for millenia already - but He says clearly and undeniably that HIS teaching is NEW and SECRET !!

"The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.

THOSE WHO TEACH YOU He says - have WITH HELD KNOWLEDGE FROM YOU - THEY do not know THIS TRUTH HE says, and now they prevent you also form knowing this truth....Let it sink in Folks....Theres a LOT more...

"A grapevine has been planted apart from the Father. Since it is not strong, it will be pulled up by its root and will perish."

Again - OPEN OPPOSITION TO THE RELIGION - it is SEPERATE from the FATHER and He is going to DESTROY it - pull it up by the roots and make it perish....Get it now..??....ENEMIES - that religion is NOT OF THE FATHER - could He even be more plain..?....Lets see...

"I will destroy this house, and no one will be able to build it"

Again very clear - He is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to the religion....Speaks openly and repeatedly of His opposition and continuously turns people AWAY from the religious influences..

"A person cannot mount two horses or bend two bows.
And a slave cannot serve two masters, otherwise that slave will honor the one and offend the other.
Nobody drinks aged wine and immediately wants to drink young wine. Young wine is not poured into old wineskins, or they might break, and aged wine is not poured into a new wineskin, or it might spoil.
An old patch is not sewn onto a new garment, since it would create a tear."

Getting clearer..??....TWO TRUTHS - old truth or His NEW TRUTH - they are totally INCOMPATABLE HE SAYS - Tells us clearly we CAN NOT follow the OLD and still follow Him - the OLD god is NOT the Father..

 

[PeteC-UK]

"Whoever does not hate father and mother cannot be my disciple, and whoever does not hate brothers and sisters, and carry the cross as I do, will not be worthy of me."

Whats this here then..??...HATRED..???...yet more OPPOSITION !!!

Do we think though, He means like a "physical hatred", like is He telling them go out and fight their family do you (all) think..??...OR - is He actually meaning they must come to hate and despise the BELIEFS and TRADITIONS of those around who do not understand yet HIS truth..?.. To follow HIM He says they MUST come to totally shun and avoid ALL that they now consider to be "truth"..Our Father is NOT that jewish god - HIS truth and the truth of Yahweh are INCOMPATABLE !!

Why have you come out to the countryside? To see a reed shaken by the wind? And to see a person dressed in soft clothes, like your rulers and your powerful ones? They are dressed in soft clothes, and they cannot understand truth."

THIS above is ACTUALLY the start of that famous "sermon on the mount" - as said elsewhere, around 80 % of ALL His famous teahching is to be found in THOMAS first, the ORIGINAL and DIRECT account..Again, He opens with a statement telling them that their leaders do NOT KNOW TRUTH !!!

They showed Jesus a gold coin and said to him, "The Roman emperor's people demand taxes from us."
He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine."

VERY CLEAR - there are now THREE truths in the world He says - Emporer,mortal concerns - "god" Yahweh that was before and that all thus far know and worship -and now CHRIST - who makes it VERY CLEAR that He is not affiliated to EITHER mortal realm or the realm of the god Yahweh - He classes Himself as Being ENTIRELY SEPERATE AND DISTINCT from BOTH mortal and Yahweh...Again...Let it sink in deep - that god Yahweh is NOT Our Father that HE ALONE teaches us of !!

"Damn the Pharisees! They are like a dog sleeping in the cattle manger: the dog neither eats nor lets the cattle eat."

ANGER - and again - CLEAR OPPOSITION to the religion....He DESPISES it - DAMN them - with holds knoweldge and will not allow you to know TRUTH - He is ANGRY at them - ENEMY to them - in OPPOSITION to them ALWAYS !! He has absolutely NO AFFILIATION to the Jewish god Yahweh - came to REPLACE that truth with HIS NEW SECRETS of a LEGITIMATE DIVINE SOURCE that He said INSISTANTLY THAT NOBODY - not even the god or angels above - had ever encountered before..This one from Judas - again ORIGINAL disciple gospel,claimed BY Judas directly..Christ tells Him so that there can be no doubt ta all :

Come , that I may teach you about secrets no person has ever seen. Forthere exists a great and boundless realm, whose extent no generation of angels has seen,in which there is a great invisible Spirit,
which no eye of an angel has ever seen, no thought of the heart has ever comprehended, and it was never called by any name.“

Absoluteyl undeniable - HIS teaching - totally NEW - UNKNOWN - NEVER before encountered - a GREAT INVISIBLE SPIRIT that causes all else ot exist - and it has NEVER been called any NAME !!!

None know it - not even god and angels above - none have ever encountered it - none have ever named it...Let it sink in very deep Folks....See clearly as He intended - that god Yahweh is DECEIVING you (all) - He came to give us TRUTH that He said specifically would SET US FREE (from this enforced spiritual domination at its hands)...

As always - for those with ears to hear....

 

[BilliardsBall]

never quoted in the NT? interesting.
so what of these teachings -
a tree and its fruit
do onto others
store up treasures in heaven
show me in the canon (roman council approved) books where these teachings are? they are in the apocrypha and these are not Apostles these are teaching of Jesus.
the pharisees were familiar with them as well. when they tested Jesus on the woman with all the dead husbands, its a story from Tobet. this would have been a perfect opportunity for Jesus to correct everyone on the proper authority of these books, yet He does not.

I would question those citations. I would also question our understanding--Jesus has the right to say new things, also, besides what is in the OT. And as I mentioned on a previous post, I question whether the NT or apocrypha came first, as in the Jude quotation.

He didn't discuss the apocryphal nature of the seven husbands bit, because He reemphasized the preeminence of canon--by quoting Exodus 3 to reprove them!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Christ said openly that THAT god Yahweh is NOT EVEN OUR FATHER

This is a scriptural reference you’ve made…?

The bible simply cannot tell you such truth as the god there is NOT THE SOURCE OF CREATION

Jesus is certainly the source of creation in John 1:1-5, for one example.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Billiard Ball; Yes my friend - all those quotes above - everything that appears within a quote box - IS MOST CERTAINLY - ORIGINAL scripture !!

Note though - its not that twisted bible scripture version - all that I present is taken from the DIRECT TEACHING that Christ gave to DISCIPLE...it is taken from the ORIGINAL gospels that were WRITTEN BY and CLAIMED by the DISCIPLES THEMSELVES !!!

Thats really crucial to grasp and understand - as I always advise, let it sink in real deep - and realise fully that the Disciples did NOT WRITE YOUR BIBLE CANON....did they..????...

NO - they didnt - absolutely NO WAY -- and we know this beyond any doubt whatsoever....The bible is NOT the disciples speaking nor is it Christ Himself speaking - it is actually then little more than HEARSAY - RUMOUR - that is all it amounts to - things written down over THREE HUNDRED YEARS after the events occurred and NONE of the authors of the bible canon were alive at that time nor were any living witnesses around for those authors to ask - they offer SECONDHAND OPINION and that is all - even fully admitted at the end of each canon gospel.....They are NOT LEGITIMATE - again FULLY ADMITTED by those who actually MANUFACTURED the bible and forced it upon you...They tell you openly in their own encyclopedia, quoted elsewhere and they say outright that the bible was made from hundreds of other documents as we discussed and agreed, and the the catholics go on to further admit that the authors of the canon gospeles are COMPLETELY UNKNOWN AUTHORS and they then say basically, we will just have to take their word as truth......

ITS A FARCE !!! Of course the authors of the bible canon are indeed exactly that - completely unknown - as they are merely SCRIBES - scholars ordered by Constantine to MANUFACTURE the bible canon...Literally - edit cut n paste from all those hundreds of pre existant manuscripts....

Go round in circles all you need - its the only option they left you with isnt it..?..all you have as that is all they allow you to have - go to bible and only bible - reject all else they say and so they HAVE closed off all truths to you...Except for people like me who never bought into their BS but still managed to find Christ anyway....I will keep giving you these hints and clues as to what He is really all about - and eventually I will say something that will make you wake up to the manipulation and finally an epiphany will dawn, you will see Im right all along......

ORIGINAL SCRIPTURE my friend(s) - written by DISCIPLE directly - CLAIMED by disciple directly - and it says a very different truth to the bible doesnt it..??..DIRECT teaching - written on the road as they travel and learn from Him face to face...All these credentials are a lot more bona fide - a lot more legitimate - than a book written over THREE HUNDRED YEARS AFTER THE FACTS that contains NO direct testimony at all and was NOT WRITTEN by ANYBODY who directly met or knew either Christ or Disciple...!!

Wise up Folks....The original gospels say all this that I present - plain now in this wonderous internet age - everyone of us have this truth freely available again..And same technology same vast pool of knowledge shows us clearly and beyond any dispute at all that the bible is not at all what we believe it to be - not first hand, not direct teaching at all - manufactured to suit an agenda - beyond any dispute whatsoever for as said,the Catholics themselves FULLY ADMIT IT !!

Surely then - if we want TRUTH - the actual truth - the ORIGINAL truth - before all this religious chicanery with its history of torture and murder as it forced all this upon the world - then it would suit us best to put that bible down and first go and look see WHY they needed to do all that.....

I keep asking QUESTIONS - but those who adhere to the bible simply either will not address them - or have no answers to give.......For instance - WHY DID THEY MURDER HIM - ?? Come on - any takers..??...Its rather crucial dont you (all) think..?....Shows us clearly - they ARE ENEMIES !! You dont murder friends and allies - do you..??...

IF they both served the same god then this would never have happened !! Anyone got anything to add - or is it just going to be overlooked as the religious miasma clouds your mind(s) again..??.. ( I will say the answer is blindingly obvious once we know what the ORIGINAL gospels actually say all becomes very clear indeed and the reason for His murder is rather undeniable )...

So a serious question to the religous Folks here - why did they MURDER Him..??....

And another serious question - WHY did they then ALTER the gospels at all..?....Again, any takers..?....WHY did they NEED to do that..??.... ( again - read them and the and answer is obvious and undeniable )

WHY did they then go on to HUNT DOWN - TORTURE - MURDER - any and all who knew the ORIGINAL truth - or who had means to directly access and communicate with SPIRIT..??...

( I will tell you it is a clear attempt to with hold vital knowledge and wisdom from the general masses - they simply cannot allow us to have spiritual truth of our ALREADY intact and fully assured ETERNAL Soul for if we knew we ALREADY posess this then there is obviously no need for a religion at all and as said they become OBSOLETE - so they absolutely forbid us any form of direct spiritual contact at all - because one or more of us are bound to stumble upon the legitimate truth - as I my Self did - and if we all come to know how to commune directly then of course as Christ said, the religion do indeed become OBSOLETE - not needed, lose their power status and tools to dominate..

Christ told us clearly - we ALREADY posses an ETERNAL SOUL but simply do not know our own truth yet..No matter who you are now or what station or position you hold in mortal life, He guarantees this eternal status for us and tells us clearly all we have to do to achieve it is to become sufficiently Self aware - Self realised - here whilst still alive - so that upon that moment of physical death, we will not be shocked or awed by it, but will finally free the Soul to attain our full potential....We save our SELF Folks - and we manage this by doing just as He advised above - KNOW THY SELF - become fully known - and no external source of knowledge or "guidance" can ever possibly teach you that - in fact it will only hinder you and be an obstacle to you...Come AWAY from the religion He said they MISLEAD you and do not even know the truth...

See then - the Jewish way said that NO - mortals do NOT have an eternal Soul at all - and when we die we must
await a "judgement" to decide our next fate - eternal life or eternal damnation.....Thus they say if we OBEY the god, and them of course - then we work toward our salvation - and if we displease the god then we are doomed - so best do as your told and dont dare to go against our commands and we kindly priests will lead you to safety.....As usual - complete OPPOSITE to Christ - they couldnt let HIS teaching become public - because LOOK I ALREADY HAVE MY ETERNAL SOUL - and I never got it from a priest at all - it was mine ALWAYS !! I only needed to WAKE UP TO MY SELF to discover who and what I really am....And the way to WAKE UP - is to QUIT following others so blindly of course - pay attention to the LIVING TRUTH of Self...All those external inlluences can only lead us astray - always...NO RELIGION NEEDED....Let it sink in - see He IS a threat to them DIRECTLY - He WILL make them OBSOLETE once His truth is known....

You are ALREADY "saved" as they term it these days - but you just dont (all) know it yet..They keep you ignorant on purpose THROUGH thier twisted doctrines...They could not allow His truth - wrong god - lesser god - shun and avoid that whole religious malarky HE said - completely USELESS - so QUIT BABBL:ING LIKE PAGANS HE said - no more temple worship at all - no more false piety for the sake of mans acclaim among fellow man - no more begging prayers - no more fawning supplications - no more endless repeated catechisms - USELESS - fills your mind with useless cr*p and stops you directly from hearing the INNER guide...Put it all down He said - HATE YOUR PARENTS.....

Folks - these are not rhetorical questions Im asking above - I genuinely want you (all) to think for your Self rather than cling to lies and deceipts that they have forced upon us all..Ask yourselves honestly - why DID they murder Him..??...why DID they alter the disciples OWN gospels and change the truth given directly..?..why DID they then go on to hunt down spiritual truth EVERWHERE and literally wipe it out also..??..

Any takers then..?...Specific answers please to the specific questions above..The next few posts could be quite interesting - though Im personally not holding my breath - theres only one reason why they did all that - and it IS because Christ is their ENEMY and has NO AFFILIATION to that god or religion at all..Any other options ..???....

 

[URAVIP2ME]

so all these teachings Jesus gave us from these books dont count because he didnt say "as its written" u got to be kidding. so Jesus used these teaching, which can only be found in Apocrypha. to just mess with us? why would He do that.

you can scream all day whether the books are inspired or out of harmony not but it dont take a rocket scientist to see that the real issues had to do with Jews, Catholics and Protestants using them to separate themselves from one another, and to conform to doctrines of man.

Yes, Jesus did say, ' It is written.....' meaning Jesus referring to the old Hebrew scriptures as the basis for his teachings.
The '66' are the accepted books of Bible canon in harmony with the ancient manuscripts - 2 Timothy 3:16-17

' Real issues ' is what Luke was writing about at Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 that false shepherds ' separate themselves from one another, and to conform to the doctrines of man ( but teaching those doctrines or church customs as Scripture when Not scripture ) - Matthew 15:9
None of which makes the Bible as wrong, but makes the false teachers as wrong.