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The Bible declares that Jesus is God

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Let's say you have a child that is in danger of being killed by an intruder, and the only way to stop this is through the use of force, including possibly deadly force, would you do it or just let your child be murdered?

Secondly, Torah and Tanakh state that we have an obligation to try and defend the helpless, and I assume Jesus well knew this. So, I guess I have to ask whether Jesus would ignore the Law as found in Torah that was given by God according to the Torah itself? Why would God supposedly change His mind?

I think that Jesus general direction on this was to encourage us to try and be more peaceful, not to abandon those who may need our help. I also think that it's likely that Jesus' words of peace may well have been especially aimed at the Zealots who were willing to kill Romans in order to try and liberate Israel.

The early church well knew that this was not a simple issue to deal with, and at the end of the second century it allowed its adherents to work at policing, but short of being involved in war.

There's a difference between being a minority group versus a majority group, so when Christianity became the norm in parts of Europe starting in the 4th century, some roles changed, and this was one of them. IOW, the conditions of "the Way" when Jesus and the apostles were alive was quite different than what was to occur later when Christians became a dominant force that now was in control. Thus the church struggled with this, eventually settling on what became know as the "just-war theory": Just war theory - Wikipedia
Was it a right decision? I struggled with this question a lot, especially since I consider Gandhi to be my main mentor, and I concluded that it was-- but with much hesitation.


Protecting ones family or self--is not being sent to a foreign country where those did 0 to my family and kill them because my govt leader hates their govt leader.
If the supposed teachers of Jesus told the young men not to kill for Adolf Hitler, he wouldn't have had enough army left to attack anyone--55 million died- ww2-because those teachers threw Jesus away.

Its amazing--the teachings of Jesus have been around for almost 2000 years--yet Few understand them.
There is 0 just wars when the supposed brothers in Christ of the same religion are standing on both sides( rev war-civil war-ww1-ww2--- blowing each others heads off. Jesus = love-peace-unity--always--- One of the biggest hipocrosys ever witnessed by creation--praying to the same God on both sides of those wars.
Jesus would not-EVER- allow his brothers in Christ to stand against each other--EVER. False teachers that threw Jesus away allows it to occur.
 
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kjw47

Well-Known Member
Jesus is clearly a demi-god. In nearly all mythical traditions, when a god knocks up a mortal women, the resulting offspring is referred to as a demi-god (or its equivalent).



Only in little mortal thoughts that don't amount to much. Jesus had godlike qualities but was not a demi god. Gods power goes-THROUGH- Jesus( Acts 2:22)--Jesus has no power. God is the only source of power( last line-lords prayer)
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
My cousin is a psychologist. She never mentioned the existence of souls and stuff.

Ciao

- viole
Can't help your cousin...

Word Origin and History for psychology
n.
1650s, "study of the soul," from Modern Latin psychologia, probablycoined mid-16c. in Germany by Melanchthon from Latinized form of Greekpsykhe- "breath, spirit, soul" (see psyche )
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Let's say you have a child that is in danger of being killed by an intruder, and the only way to stop this is through the use of force, including possibly deadly force, would you do it or just let your child be murdered?

I had an older witness gentleman that was coming to my home to 'study' the Bible, which was rarely opened, anyway, I asked him that question one day when he was bragging that witnesses to go to war. I asked him what he would do if someone broke in and was going to kill his wife and kids, he told me, "she will have a place in paradise"! I said, "you would just stand there and watch them being killed?" He said, "witnesses don't kill".
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
God did care--All who lived prior to these last days--have died and paid the wages of sin--they are promised a chance in the resurrection. The bible was there-- even though corrupted by men--milk could be understood--the ten commandments could be understood. So one could learn some truth and apply it.

Ah yes, the ol' "we can pay for our own sins" lie. So who throws Jesus away?

Please show me where the Bible says OUR death pays for OUR sins. I'd like to see that.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Only in little mortal thoughts that don't amount to much. Jesus had godlike qualities but was not a demi god. Gods power goes-THROUGH- Jesus( Acts 2:22)--Jesus has no power. God is the only source of power( last line-lords prayer)

And you say you know Jesus?
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
Also - obviously the majority of translators do not agree with θεός in place of υἱός.

I invited and provided for you, because you, yourself, said that the earliest manuscripts were your authority, P66, P75, to view and translate them for yourself and referred to the Sinaiticus and Alexandrinis Codices to refute the 1700 year accepted translation of the ancient manuscripts. We got silence from you.

You state: "Also - obviously the majority of translators do not agree with θεός in place of υἱός." This is a very misleading statement. The Majority Texts are called that because of the duration and extent of the Byzantine Empire. The Alexandrian Text types existed in northern Egypt until the Muslim conquest and destruction of the great Alexandrian Library, with all its books and manuscripts around 642 A.D.. In effect halting any further copying and distribution of Biblical manuscripts. The Eastern half of the Byzantine Empire covered an area of about 3,400,000 sq km in 565 A.D. with it's greatest population of about 26,000,00 in 540 A.D.. The Byzantine Empire, the eastern half of the Roman Empire, which survived for a thousand years after the western half had crumbled into various feudal kingdoms and which finally fell to Ottoman Turkish onslaughts in 1453. So is it any wonder that the are many, many more later manuscripts produced. Which over nearly a 1,000 year period would answer why so many variants would occur?

With all those texts up there he doesn't even show a translation using θεός in place of υἱός .

Because of your dismissal of translations of which I have generously showed you, which oppose your position, I went to the earliest manuscripts, as you insisted, which clearly use θεός in the texts to describe Jesus.
RICK says this -"At any rate, the scholarly consensus is correct, then, that the text is certain and every viable MS ascribes the title θεός to Jesus. For that reason, I will press on to John 1.18..."

However the info following this statement is just about θεός, and does not associate it with John 1:18, No proof for John 1:18.

I ended my quotation of Dan Wallace at that point. I had already offered John 1:1 earlier which was ignored: "For John 1:18 P66 reads: μονογενὴς θεός. P75 reads: ὁ μονογενὴς θεός. monogenēs theos. P75 with the definite article. In English the "only begotten God". Dr. Wallace exegeted 7 portions of Scripture of which I only quoted 4 of Dr. Wallace's exegesis.

But if you think that I omitted it because it somehow substantiates your claim I'll go ahead and offer a succinct analysis of Dr. Wallace's assessment. I gave the link earlier if you want to view it in it's entirety:

In sum, externally, both readings enjoy wide geographical distribution, even though υἱός is relatively stronger in non-Alexandrian forms of text. Both readings co-existed in the second century, although weightier MSS support θεός.82 As a whole, then, I believe θεός is more probable due to the quality, antiquity, and transmissional history of the witnesses listed above. Nevertheless, this external evidence alone does not make θεός the exclusive heir to the throne. Let us now turn to the internal evidence.

In response, the offense of using θεός probably drove a scribe to the less offensive Christology of υἱός, which comports well with the scribal tendency to simplify the text (substituting “God” for “Son” is highly improbable, perhaps best explaining the absence of θεός in later Greek MSS). Even more, μονογενὴς θεός is never used elsewhere.85 One must ask, then, why here and only here do we have the textual variant μονογενὴς θεός (with or without the article)? My answer, given this scenario alone, is that θεός best explains the rise of the other variants.

Stylistically, θεός closes the inclusio begun in 1.1c; also possibly providing a parallel with 20.28 (the Gospel as a whole). Perhaps the intention was to shock the reader. If this phrase occurred frequently then the author may have failed in achieving his desired result. The reference “who is in the bosom of the Father” is an anthropomorphic metaphor for intimacy and fellowship.86 In other words, it is an idiom for closeness and does not truly affect either reading. Lastly, the author of John’s Gospel has a penchant for varying Christological designations (cf., e.g., 1.49; 4.42; 6.69; 9.38; 11.27; 20.16).

Another internal argument sometimes given, a scribe could have easily erred since only one Greek majuscule letter differentiates “Son” from “God”: =u=-s or =q=-s. One problem with this option, however, is that υἱός was not one of the original (or earliest) nomina sacra.87 At the same time, though, θεός (q=-s) was one of the four earliest (i.e., Ἰησοῦς, Χριστός, κύριος, and θεός) and most consistently rendered nomina sacra from the second century onward.88 To state this differently, although this option is not impossible, it is highly improbable given the transmissional evidence we have.

What variant, then, best explains the rise of the others? I believe that the subtle meaning of the two words in their original apposition, μονογενὴς θεός, caused an early misconception. Thus, an article was assigned to the original reading, now ὁ μονογενὴς θεός, as early as P75, a, and copbo, sa. Ironically, this change wound up alleviating nothing and was inconsistent with other Johannine and NT usage. Accordingly, the next stage of evolution changed “God” to “Son”: ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός. Finally, although a few other variants arose which either combined the two readings (ὁ μονογενὴς υἱὸς θεός)89 or simply omitted both (ὁ μονογενής),90 ὁ μονογενὴς υἱόςbecame the majority reading with no viable evidence of change in later Greek MSS.91

In retrospect, I conclude that μονογενὴς θεός is the best reading given all the evidence we have internally and externally. As a result, it is highly probable that the text of John 1:18 calls Jesus θεός.92

Your comment to the first two sentences below:
92 The deity of Christ is not jeopardized even if υἱός is original. Although that shouldn’t be a factor in the discipline of textual criticism, this does allow certain (evangelical) textual critics to follow the evidence to a relatively objective conclusion. On the other hand, Ehrman does have a tremendous problem if θεός ends up being the best reading because it would contradict his overall thesis and would put a major dent in his a priori assumption that Jesus is not called θεός in the NT. For example, Ehrman specifically states that if μονογενὴς θεός is the original text in John 1.18 then “the complete deity of Christ is affirmed” (Ehrman, Orthodox Corruption, 78). Yet this is a theological belief he does not support at this time.

Your comment: "The FACT that the text says υἱός and not θεός shouldn't be a factor???? LOLOLOLOL!" You are misquoting Dr. Wallace. I'll leave the determination of your motive for others to assess.

First, He is not, after all the manuscript and historical evidence, now saying that it is a "FACT that the text says υἱός and not θεός shouldn't be a factor" as you falsely accuse. Let's read it again:

The deity of Christ is not jeopardized
even if υἱός is original. Although that shouldn’t be a factor in the discipline of textual criticism, this does allow certain (evangelical) textual critics to follow the evidence to a relatively objective conclusion


Understanding common English Grammar, when the word "if" or the term "even if" is used in a sentence it refers to a hypothetical. What he is saying is that even as he has demonstrated that the earliest manuscript evidence and church history has validated Christ as θεός, "even if" that wasn't the case, the entirety of the New Testament testifies to that fact that He is the unique Son of God. Even Bart Ehrman admitted: "that if μονογενὴς θεός is the original text in John 1.18 (let alone all the other references. Brackets mine) then the complete deity of Christ is affirmed” (Ehrman, Orthodox Corruption, 78).
And it is in the closest manuscripts to the original.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I guess that's right.

I think its for each of us to investigate for ourselves. I don't see why it needs to become a cause for those who believe in Jesus to have major disagreements.

The scripture that best supports the divinity of Christ:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:1-3

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:14

No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 1:18

Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 8:57-58

I and my Father are one.
John 10:30

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

John 20:27-28

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Colossians 1:16-17

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Colossians 2:9-10

One way of resolving apparently contradictory scripture is to see Jesus as being a perfect reflection of God's virtues or attributes. Scripture that would support this position:

Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

John 8:28
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

As I was interested in this topic I started up a thread two months ago:

The Divinity of Christ
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I invited and provided for you, because you, yourself, said that the earliest manuscripts were your authority, P66, P75, to view and translate them for yourself and referred to the Sinaiticus and Alexandrinis Codices to refute the 1700 year accepted translation of the ancient manuscripts. We got silence from you.

You state: "Also - obviously the majority of translators do not agree with θεός in place of υἱός." This is a very misleading statement. The Majority Texts are called that because of the duration and extent of the Byzantine Empire. The Alexandrian Text types existed in northern Egypt until the Muslim conquest and destruction of the great Alexandrian Library, with all its books and manuscripts around 642 A.D.. In effect halting any further copying and distribution of Biblical manuscripts. The Eastern half of the Byzantine Empire covered an area of about 3,400,000 sq km in 565 A.D. with it's greatest population of about 26,000,00 in 540 A.D.. The Byzantine Empire, the eastern half of the Roman Empire, which survived for a thousand years after the western half had crumbled into various feudal kingdoms and which finally fell to Ottoman Turkish onslaughts in 1453. So is it any wonder that the are many, many more later manuscripts produced. Which over nearly a 1,000 year period would answer why so many variants would occur?



Because of your dismissal of translations of which I have generously showed you, which oppose your position, I went to the earliest manuscripts, as you insisted, which clearly use θεός in the texts to describe Jesus.




I ended my quotation of Dan Wallace at that point. I had already offered John 1:1 earlier which was ignored: "For John 1:18 P66 reads: μονογενὴς θεός. P75 reads: ὁ μονογενὴς θεός. monogenēs theos. P75 with the definite article. In English the "only begotten God". Dr. Wallace exegeted 7 portions of Scripture of which I only quoted 4 of Dr. Wallace's exegesis.

But if you think that I omitted it because it somehow substantiates your claim I'll go ahead and offer a succinct analysis of Dr. Wallace's assessment. I gave the link earlier if you want to view it in it's entirety:

In sum, externally, both readings enjoy wide geographical distribution, even though υἱός is relatively stronger in non-Alexandrian forms of text. Both readings co-existed in the second century, although weightier MSS support θεός.82 As a whole, then, I believe θεός is more probable due to the quality, antiquity, and transmissional history of the witnesses listed above. Nevertheless, this external evidence alone does not make θεός the exclusive heir to the throne. Let us now turn to the internal evidence.

In response, the offense of using θεός probably drove a scribe to the less offensive Christology of υἱός, which comports well with the scribal tendency to simplify the text (substituting “God” for “Son” is highly improbable, perhaps best explaining the absence of θεός in later Greek MSS). Even more, μονογενὴς θεός is never used elsewhere.85 One must ask, then, why here and only here do we have the textual variant μονογενὴς θεός (with or without the article)? My answer, given this scenario alone, is that θεός best explains the rise of the other variants.

Stylistically, θεός closes the inclusio begun in 1.1c; also possibly providing a parallel with 20.28 (the Gospel as a whole). Perhaps the intention was to shock the reader. If this phrase occurred frequently then the author may have failed in achieving his desired result. The reference “who is in the bosom of the Father” is an anthropomorphic metaphor for intimacy and fellowship.86 In other words, it is an idiom for closeness and does not truly affect either reading. Lastly, the author of John’s Gospel has a penchant for varying Christological designations (cf., e.g., 1.49; 4.42; 6.69; 9.38; 11.27; 20.16).

Another internal argument sometimes given, a scribe could have easily erred since only one Greek majuscule letter differentiates “Son” from “God”: =u=-s or =q=-s. One problem with this option, however, is that υἱός was not one of the original (or earliest) nomina sacra.87 At the same time, though, θεός (q=-s) was one of the four earliest (i.e., Ἰησοῦς, Χριστός, κύριος, and θεός) and most consistently rendered nomina sacra from the second century onward.88 To state this differently, although this option is not impossible, it is highly improbable given the transmissional evidence we have.

What variant, then, best explains the rise of the others? I believe that the subtle meaning of the two words in their original apposition, μονογενὴς θεός, caused an early misconception. Thus, an article was assigned to the original reading, now ὁ μονογενὴς θεός, as early as P75, a, and copbo, sa. Ironically, this change wound up alleviating nothing and was inconsistent with other Johannine and NT usage. Accordingly, the next stage of evolution changed “God” to “Son”: ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός. Finally, although a few other variants arose which either combined the two readings (ὁ μονογενὴς υἱὸς θεός)89 or simply omitted both (ὁ μονογενής),90 ὁ μονογενὴς υἱόςbecame the majority reading with no viable evidence of change in later Greek MSS.91

In retrospect, I conclude that μονογενὴς θεός is the best reading given all the evidence we have internally and externally. As a result, it is highly probable that the text of John 1:18 calls Jesus θεός.92

Your comment to the first two sentences below:
92 The deity of Christ is not jeopardized even if υἱός is original. Although that shouldn’t be a factor in the discipline of textual criticism, this does allow certain (evangelical) textual critics to follow the evidence to a relatively objective conclusion. On the other hand, Ehrman does have a tremendous problem if θεός ends up being the best reading because it would contradict his overall thesis and would put a major dent in his a priori assumption that Jesus is not called θεός in the NT. For example, Ehrman specifically states that if μονογενὴς θεός is the original text in John 1.18 then “the complete deity of Christ is affirmed” (Ehrman, Orthodox Corruption, 78). Yet this is a theological belief he does not support at this time.

Your comment: "The FACT that the text says υἱός and not θεός shouldn't be a factor???? LOLOLOLOL!" You are misquoting Dr. Wallace. I'll leave the determination of your motive for others to assess.

First, He is not, after all the manuscript and historical evidence, now saying that it is a "FACT that the text says υἱός and not θεός shouldn't be a factor" as you falsely accuse. Let's read it again:

The deity of Christ is not jeopardized
even if υἱός is original. Although that shouldn’t be a factor in the discipline of textual criticism, this does allow certain (evangelical) textual critics to follow the evidence to a relatively objective conclusion


Understanding common English Grammar, when the word "if" or the term "even if" is used in a sentence it refers to a hypothetical. What he is saying is that even as he has demonstrated that the earliest manuscript evidence and church history has validated Christ as θεός, "even if" that wasn't the case, the entirety of the New Testament testifies to that fact that He is the unique Son of God. Even Bart Ehrman admitted: "that if μονογενὴς θεός is the original text in John 1.18 (let alone all the other references. Brackets mine) then the complete deity of Christ is affirmed” (Ehrman, Orthodox Corruption, 78).
And it is in the closest manuscripts to the original.

You supplied what you thought was going to clinch 1:18 - and it didn't.

The author you quoted obviously can't put θεός in place of υἱός .

You have no case.

I understand English grammar. Your authors quotes did not prove θεός - and then he adds -

The deity of Christ is not jeopardized even if υἱός is original. Although that shouldn’t be a factor in the discipline of textual criticism, this does allow certain (evangelical) textual critics to follow the evidence to a relatively objective conclusion.

Those two sentences, with the addition of no proof in the quotes, shows he cannot prove θεός.

That is the way it is.

*
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
...Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 8:57-58...

Just wanted to say I did a little study on John 8:56-58.

This is a Messiah reference. Translation again, look it up, and keep the words in order. It doesn't say before Abraham I am, - it is talking about Abraham's Messiah vision. He is saying he has fulfilled the Messiah prophecy.

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. (vision - prophesized it)

Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

John 8:58 Said he Jesus, Amen Amen, saying to them, for Abraham to be (gonomai) fulfilled, I am.

(MOSES) Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

(YHVH) Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

(Jesus) Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Abraham's prophecy concerning the Messiah.)

So, still no God Jesus.

*
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
The author you quoted obviously can't put θεός in place of υἱός .

I'm not sure why you keep repeating this absurdity. Daniel Wallace presented the earliest manuscript evidence for the 7 relevant Scriptural passages where θεός is the Greek word in the text, not υἱός. By your own admission the earliest manuscripts are the most trustworthy. Except, it appears when they are contrary to your opinion. Then they must become irrelevant so that you can continue to disparage the Orthodox Christian teaching that the Bible declares Jesus is God in the flesh.

You have no case.

The case has been amply provided with evidence from history, manuscript, and many Bible versions supporting the Deity of Christ.
Because I say so, as a rebuttal, is juvenile.

Those two sentences, with the addition of no proof in the quotes, shows he cannot prove θεός.

Again, what you are displaying, is that because of the overwhelming pressure of the bias of your worldview, when the evidence presented to you cannot be legitimately and directly addressed and refuted by careful exegesis, you simply deny what is right before your very eyes.

p66joh1.jpg p75.jpg
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Can't help your cousin...

Word Origin and History for psychology
n.
1650s, "study of the soul," from Modern Latin psychologia, probablycoined mid-16c. in Germany by Melanchthon from Latinized form of Greekpsykhe- "breath, spirit, soul" (see psyche )

You must be joking. The etymology of the word does not entail that psychologists study the soul as intended in a dualistic incorporeal way.

The word enthusiasm means "God is within", but that does not entail that I have evidence of God anytime I am enthusiastic about anything.

So, we were talking of evidence, not ancient etymology of words. Do you have some scientific psychological paper with evidence of incorporeal souls? Possibly newer than 5 centuries ago, if possible :)

Ciao

- viole
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
You must be joking. The etymology of the word does not entail that psychologists study the soul as intended in a dualistic incorporeal way.

The word enthusiasm means "God is within", but that does not entail that I have evidence of God anytime I am enthusiastic about anything.

So, we were talking of evidence, not ancient etymology of words. Do you have some scientific psychological paper with evidence of incorporeal souls? Possibly newer than 5 centuries ago, if possible :)

Ciao

- viole
Ohhhh... what a word means doesn't mean what the word means. And the study of Psyche (soul) doesn't mean soul!

soul noun
1.
the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part.

And, so, you have no feeling, thoughts and actions!

Got it!!

So... Theology doesn't mean the study of God
Archaeology has nothing to do with antiquities
Bacteriology doesn't study bacteria
chronology doesn't deal with chrono - time

Got it!!

Ciao

PS... Please let Psychology Today know so that they can update their information... we wouldn't want them to teach some weird thing like Psyche means soul

Psychology: The Study of the Soul?
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I'm not sure why you keep repeating this absurdity. Daniel Wallace presented the earliest manuscript evidence for the 7 relevant Scriptural passages where θεός is the Greek word in the text, not υἱός. By your own admission the earliest manuscripts are the most trustworthy. Except, it appears when they are contrary to your opinion. Then they must become irrelevant so that you can continue to disparage the Orthodox Christian teaching that the Bible declares Jesus is God in the flesh.



The case has been amply provided with evidence from history, manuscript, and many Bible versions supporting the Deity of Christ.
Because I say so, as a rebuttal, is juvenile.



Again, what you are displaying, is that because of the overwhelming pressure of the bias of your worldview, when the evidence presented to you cannot be legitimately and directly addressed and refuted by careful exegesis, you simply deny what is before your very eyes.

View attachment 17920 View attachment 17921
Sounds reasonable to me! :D
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Ah yes, the ol' "we can pay for our own sins" lie. So who throws Jesus away?

Please show me where the Bible says OUR death pays for OUR sins. I'd like to see that.


Romans 6:23--- For the wages sin pays is death.--- thus all who died paid the wages of sin. Will be resurrected and given an opportunity to gain life everlasting in Gods kingdom.--( I would say--the super wicked wont get that chance.)
There are some in the bible listed as standing in direct opposition to God--and those like Hitler.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
You supplied what you thought was going to clinch 1:18 - and it didn't.

The author you quoted obviously can't put θεός in place of υἱός .

Why on earth would he put θεός in place of υἱός??? That is NOT the role of the textual critic, and the only people I know who entertain such ideas are Jehovah Witnesses. The only "proof" they need is for it to appear in the Watchtower or Awake!

Not only does Wallace meticulously show the earliest manuscript evidence for θεός, he shows the weight of evidence supporting or refuting it! And no, this does not mean you start counting manuscripts as Rick has already shown.

You have no case.
I'm afraid the case has been shown. It was case was closed centuries ago, and the available evidence we have shows the original conclusion was the correct one.

I understand English grammar.

Just not textual criticism.

Your authors quotes did not prove θεός - and then he adds -

The deity of Christ is not jeopardized even if υἱός is original. Although that shouldn’t be a factor in the discipline of textual criticism, this does allow certain (evangelical) textual critics to follow the evidence to a relatively objective conclusion.

Yes, even if υἱός was in the original (for which the overwhelming evidence shows was not) it still would not assail that Jesus is God.

A consideraton of an idea is not an assumption of that idea, Ingledsva. If a textual critic could not entertain the idea a doctrine could be wrong, he could have never, possibly, develop any claim or assertion objectively! As a matter of fact he states doctrinal ideas shouldn't be a factor in textual criticism!

Simply considering "...even if υἱός is original" does not mean it is original. The case for it being original or not is made solely through the evidence we have to date, and certainly not by your attempt to "re-translate" a conclusion.

If you want to show the primacy of υἱός you will need to find or develop more persuasive manuscript evidence or find an original autographs. Perhaps you have "Q" or know where we can find it? As they say, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", and so far the evidence for υἱός is lacking.

That is the way it is.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I'm not sure why you keep repeating this absurdity. Daniel Wallace presented the earliest manuscript evidence for the 7 relevant Scriptural passages where θεός is the Greek word in the text, not υἱός. By your own admission the earliest manuscripts are the most trustworthy. Except, it appears when they are contrary to your opinion. Then they must become irrelevant so that you can continue to disparage the Orthodox Christian teaching that the Bible declares Jesus is God in the flesh.

The author you gave us presented NO proof that θεός was originally in place of υἱός.

The case has been amply provided with evidence from history, manuscript, and many Bible versions supporting the Deity of Christ.

Because I say so, as a rebuttal, is juvenile.

"You have no evidence" - is NOT - "because I say so."

This is a debate - grow up and stop this crap.

Again, what you are displaying, is that because of the overwhelming pressure of the bias of your worldview, when the evidence presented to you cannot be legitimately and directly addressed and refuted by careful exegesis, you simply deny what is right before your very eyes.

Again Bull, - I carefully read your supposed "proof" which turned out to be no proof, for God in place of son, in 18.

Vulgate - Joh 1:18 Deum nemo vidit umquam unigenitus Filius qui est in sinu Patris ipse enarravit

GNT Byzantian - Joh 1:18 θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε ο μονογενης υιος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο

Textus Receptus - Joh 1:18 θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε ο μονογενης υιος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο

Bishop's 1568 - Joh 1:18 No man hath seene God at any tyme: The onely begotten sonne which is in the bosome of the father, he hath declared hym.

Geneva 1587 - Joh 1:18 No man hath seene God at any time: that onely begotten Sonne, which is in the bosome of the Father, he hath declared him.

And the old standby Bibles - KJV, YLT, Darby, Douay-Rheims, etc.

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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
...

Not only does Wallace meticulously show the earliest manuscript evidence for θεός, he shows the weight of evidence supporting or refuting it! And no, this does not mean you start counting manuscripts as Rick has already shown.

I'm afraid the case has been shown. It was case was closed centuries ago, and the available evidence we have shows the original conclusion was the correct one....

If that were the case, - which it obviously isn't, - why haven't you provided any proof?

And why haven't all the Bibles switched to that?

SEE # 338.

GIVE SOME PROOF - or give up this ridiculous prattle.

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Oeste

Well-Known Member
By making correction to error is repentence.

Let’s see how that works:

Example 1:

Bob and Harry are sitting on the steps one night, reading a Watchtower and Awake magazine that kjw left for them the morning before. Bob reads that “correction to error = repentance” and wonders how he might put this to action when they spy Johnny walking up the street. “Hey Johnny”, Bob yells “Barbara was looking for you at the show. She’s in the second row. I think if you purchase a ticket you can still meet her there”.

Johnny is enrolled in special classes and he is not the smartest boy in school, but he has a big heart and a crush on Barbara. So he runs to the show and spends his last few dollars to buy a ticket. When he gets to the second row he sees Barbara with David, both enjoying the show on their date.

Johnny's eyes get a bit watery, but then he angrily heads back toward Bob. ‘Why did you tell me she was waiting for me when she wasn’t?” he asks bitterly.

“Oh, you’re right”, Bob replies,"she didn't ask for you. But look at it this way…those 20 minutes it took you to get the theater were probably the happiest of your miserable life."

This makes Johnny angrier but Harry admonishes him. “Bob clearly repented by correcting his error. I don’t understand why you would be angry with him”. With this, Harry shows "correction to error = repentance" from his latest, straight of the press Watchtower and compliments Bob on being repentant.

Can you honestly tell us that Harry is right and that Bob has repented? Or it would it be more correct to surmise they preyed on Johnny’s gullibility?

Not realistic. He was not repentant by what he did. False reasoning of the mortal heart-Jer 17:9)

Agreed! Simply correcting a past error is NOT repentance.

Agreement is not something that happens often between us kjw, but I'm glad when it does. :)
 
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