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The Bible declares that Jesus is God

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
Why on earth would he put θεός in place of υἱός??? That is NOT the role of the textual critic, and the only people I know who entertain such ideas are Jehovah Witnesses. The only "proof" they need is for it to appear in the Watchtower or Awake!

Not only does Wallace meticulously show the earliest manuscript evidence for θεός, he shows the weight of evidence supporting or refuting it! And no, this does not mean you start counting manuscripts as Rick has already shown.


I'm afraid the case has been shown. It was case was closed centuries ago, and the available evidence we have shows the original conclusion was the correct one.



Just not textual criticism.



Yes, even if υἱός was in the original (for which the overwhelming evidence shows was not) it still would not assail that Jesus is God.

A consideraton of an idea is not an assumption of that idea, Ingledsva. If a textual critic could not entertain the idea a doctrine could be wrong, he could have never, possibly, develop any claim or assertion objectively! As a matter of fact he states doctrinal ideas shouldn't be a factor in textual criticism!

Simply considering "...even if υἱός is original" does not mean it is original. The case for it being original or not is made solely through the evidence we have to date, and certainly not by your attempt to "re-translate" a conclusion.

If you want to show the primacy of υἱός you will need to find or develop more persuasive manuscript evidence or find an original autographs. Perhaps you have "Q" or know where we can find it? As they say, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", and so far the evidence for υἱός is lacking.

That is the way it is.

I think it's time for me to let @Ingledsva go. Her debate method consists mainly of deny and vilify. There seems to be no rational, scholarly, let alone civil, content to her arguments. She's simply argumentative. I am reminded of Romans 1:18 -32. When Christ's deity is denied He therefore must be a creature as those deniers insist. However no creature, no matter how highly regarded, can pay the sins of another let alone the sins of all God’s elect. To be a substitute for sinful man before the infinite God requires an infinite Redeemer and to be the final representative of God’s chosen people he must be a man. Hence the incarnation of the God-man Jesus Christ. Those who reject the deity and humanity in the one person of Jesus Christ are left with no savior.

"If you believe not that I AM you will die in your sins." John 8:24
 
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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I invited and provided for you, because you, yourself, said that the earliest manuscripts were your authority, P66, P75, to view and translate them for yourself and referred to the Sinaiticus and Alexandrinis Codices to refute the 1700 year accepted translation of the ancient manuscripts. We got silence from you.

You state: "Also - obviously the majority of translators do not agree with θεός in place of υἱός." This is a very misleading statement. The Majority Texts are called that because of the duration and extent of the Byzantine Empire. The Alexandrian Text types existed in northern Egypt until the Muslim conquest and destruction of the great Alexandrian Library, with all its books and manuscripts around 642 A.D.. In effect halting any further copying and distribution of Biblical manuscripts. The Eastern half of the Byzantine Empire covered an area of about 3,400,000 sq km in 565 A.D. with it's greatest population of about 26,000,00 in 540 A.D.. The Byzantine Empire, the eastern half of the Roman Empire, which survived for a thousand years after the western half had crumbled into various feudal kingdoms and which finally fell to Ottoman Turkish onslaughts in 1453. So is it any wonder that the are many, many more later manuscripts produced. Which over nearly a 1,000 year period would answer why so many variants would occur?



Because of your dismissal of translations of which I have generously showed you, which oppose your position, I went to the earliest manuscripts, as you insisted, which clearly use θεός in the texts to describe Jesus.




I ended my quotation of Dan Wallace at that point. I had already offered John 1:1 earlier which was ignored: "For John 1:18 P66 reads: μονογενὴς θεός. P75 reads: ὁ μονογενὴς θεός. monogenēs theos. P75 with the definite article. In English the "only begotten God". Dr. Wallace exegeted 7 portions of Scripture of which I only quoted 4 of Dr. Wallace's exegesis.

But if you think that I omitted it because it somehow substantiates your claim I'll go ahead and offer a succinct analysis of Dr. Wallace's assessment. I gave the link earlier if you want to view it in it's entirety:

In sum, externally, both readings enjoy wide geographical distribution, even though υἱός is relatively stronger in non-Alexandrian forms of text. Both readings co-existed in the second century, although weightier MSS support θεός.82 As a whole, then, I believe θεός is more probable due to the quality, antiquity, and transmissional history of the witnesses listed above. Nevertheless, this external evidence alone does not make θεός the exclusive heir to the throne. Let us now turn to the internal evidence.

In response, the offense of using θεός probably drove a scribe to the less offensive Christology of υἱός, which comports well with the scribal tendency to simplify the text (substituting “God” for “Son” is highly improbable, perhaps best explaining the absence of θεός in later Greek MSS). Even more, μονογενὴς θεός is never used elsewhere.85 One must ask, then, why here and only here do we have the textual variant μονογενὴς θεός (with or without the article)? My answer, given this scenario alone, is that θεός best explains the rise of the other variants.

Stylistically, θεός closes the inclusio begun in 1.1c; also possibly providing a parallel with 20.28 (the Gospel as a whole). Perhaps the intention was to shock the reader. If this phrase occurred frequently then the author may have failed in achieving his desired result. The reference “who is in the bosom of the Father” is an anthropomorphic metaphor for intimacy and fellowship.86 In other words, it is an idiom for closeness and does not truly affect either reading. Lastly, the author of John’s Gospel has a penchant for varying Christological designations (cf., e.g., 1.49; 4.42; 6.69; 9.38; 11.27; 20.16).

Another internal argument sometimes given, a scribe could have easily erred since only one Greek majuscule letter differentiates “Son” from “God”: =u=-s or =q=-s. One problem with this option, however, is that υἱός was not one of the original (or earliest) nomina sacra.87 At the same time, though, θεός (q=-s) was one of the four earliest (i.e., Ἰησοῦς, Χριστός, κύριος, and θεός) and most consistently rendered nomina sacra from the second century onward.88 To state this differently, although this option is not impossible, it is highly improbable given the transmissional evidence we have.

What variant, then, best explains the rise of the others? I believe that the subtle meaning of the two words in their original apposition, μονογενὴς θεός, caused an early misconception. Thus, an article was assigned to the original reading, now ὁ μονογενὴς θεός, as early as P75, a, and copbo, sa. Ironically, this change wound up alleviating nothing and was inconsistent with other Johannine and NT usage. Accordingly, the next stage of evolution changed “God” to “Son”: ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός. Finally, although a few other variants arose which either combined the two readings (ὁ μονογενὴς υἱὸς θεός)89 or simply omitted both (ὁ μονογενής),90 ὁ μονογενὴς υἱόςbecame the majority reading with no viable evidence of change in later Greek MSS.91

In retrospect, I conclude that μονογενὴς θεός is the best reading given all the evidence we have internally and externally. As a result, it is highly probable that the text of John 1:18 calls Jesus θεός.92

Your comment to the first two sentences below:
92 The deity of Christ is not jeopardized even if υἱός is original. Although that shouldn’t be a factor in the discipline of textual criticism, this does allow certain (evangelical) textual critics to follow the evidence to a relatively objective conclusion. On the other hand, Ehrman does have a tremendous problem if θεός ends up being the best reading because it would contradict his overall thesis and would put a major dent in his a priori assumption that Jesus is not called θεός in the NT. For example, Ehrman specifically states that if μονογενὴς θεός is the original text in John 1.18 then “the complete deity of Christ is affirmed” (Ehrman, Orthodox Corruption, 78). Yet this is a theological belief he does not support at this time.

Your comment: "The FACT that the text says υἱός and not θεός shouldn't be a factor???? LOLOLOLOL!" You are misquoting Dr. Wallace. I'll leave the determination of your motive for others to assess.

First, He is not, after all the manuscript and historical evidence, now saying that it is a "FACT that the text says υἱός and not θεός shouldn't be a factor" as you falsely accuse. Let's read it again:

The deity of Christ is not jeopardized
even if υἱός is original. Although that shouldn’t be a factor in the discipline of textual criticism, this does allow certain (evangelical) textual critics to follow the evidence to a relatively objective conclusion


Understanding common English Grammar, when the word "if" or the term "even if" is used in a sentence it refers to a hypothetical. What he is saying is that even as he has demonstrated that the earliest manuscript evidence and church history has validated Christ as θεός, "even if" that wasn't the case, the entirety of the New Testament testifies to that fact that He is the unique Son of God. Even Bart Ehrman admitted: "that if μονογενὴς θεός is the original text in John 1.18 (let alone all the other references. Brackets mine) then the complete deity of Christ is affirmed” (Ehrman, Orthodox Corruption, 78).
And it is in the closest manuscripts to the original.

Again what you think is not evidence.

What you posted from the author does not in any way prove God in place of Son.

Give us the actual proof - or move on!

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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I think it's time for me to let @Ingledsva go. Her debate method consists mainly of deny and vilify. There seems to be no rational, scholarly, let alone civil, content to her arguments. She's simply argumentative. I am reminded of Romans 1:18 -32. When Christ's deity is denied He therefore must be a creature as those deniers insist. However no creature, no matter how highly regarded, can pay the sins of another let alone the sins of all God’s elect. To be a substitute for sinful man before the infinite God requires an infinite Redeemer and to be the final representative of God’s chosen people he must be a man. Hence the incarnation of the God-man Jesus Christ. Those who reject the deity and humanity in the one person of Jesus Christ are left with no savior.

"If you believe not that I AM you will die in your sins." John 8:24

All that is required is actual proof. Show us the proof.

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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I think it's time for me to let @Ingledsva go. Her debate method consists mainly of deny and vilify.

I don't know how you could have made it more plain. The poster obviously had no desire to acknowledge the facts that were available to see.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN


He claims only to be the Messiah.


Joh 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of [B][U]two[/U][/B] men is true.

Joh 8:18 [B]I am one[/B] that bear witness of myself, [B]and the Father[/B] [B]that sent me beareth witness of me.[/B]

He tells us right there that he is NOT God. Two separate beings.

Joh 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, [B][U][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 179)]Ye neither know me,[/COLOR][/U][/B] [B][U][COLOR=rgb(255, 0, 0)]nor my Father:[/COLOR][/U][/B] if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. (Again two separate beings.)

Joh 8:20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Joh 8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that [B]I am [/B][I][B]he[/B],[/I] ye shall die in your sins. (The Messiah)

Joh 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even [I]the same[/I] that I said unto you from the beginning.

Joh 8:26 [B][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 179)]I have many things to say and to judge of you[/COLOR][/B]: [COLOR=rgb(255, 0, 0)][U][B]but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.[/B] [/U][/COLOR]

Joh 8:27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [I]he,[/I] and [I]that[/I] [COLOR=rgb(255, 0, 0)][B][U]I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.[/U][/B][/COLOR]

This is a Messiah reference. Translation again, look it up, and keep the words in order. It doesn't say before Abraham I am, - it is talking about Abraham's Messiah vision. He is saying he has fulfilled the Messiah prophecy.

[B] Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [I]it,[/I] and was glad. (vision - prophesized coming Messiah)[/B]

Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

[URL='https://www.religiousforums.com/bible/john/8:58/'][U][COLOR=rgb(0, 102, 204)]John 8:58[/COLOR][/U][/URL] [B]Said he Jesus, verily, verily, saying to them, for Abraham to be [U][COLOR=rgb(255, 0, 0)](gonomai) fulfilled,[/COLOR][/U] I am.[/B]

[B][COLOR=rgb(255, 0, 0)][U] (MOSES)[/U][/COLOR][/B] Deu 18:15 The LORD thy [B][U][COLOR=rgb(255, 0, 0)]God will raise up unto thee a Prophet[/COLOR][/U][/B] [B][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 179)]from the midst of thee, of thy brethren[/COLOR][/B],[B] [COLOR=rgb(255, 0, 0)][U]like unto me[/U][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=rgb(255, 0, 0)][U];[/U][/COLOR] unto him ye shall hearken;

[B][COLOR=rgb(255, 0, 0)] (YHVH)[/COLOR][/B] Deu 18:18 [B]I will raise them up a Prophet[/B] from among their brethren, [B]like unto thee,[/B] and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

[B][COLOR=rgb(255, 0, 0)]Act 7:37[/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 179)][B]This is that Moses[/B],[/COLOR] which said unto the children of Israel, [B][COLOR=rgb(255, 0, 0)]A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up[/COLOR][/B] unto you of your brethren, [B]like unto me;[/B] him shall ye hear.

[B][COLOR=rgb(255, 0, 0)](Jesus)[/COLOR][/B] Joh 5:46 For [B][COLOR=rgb(255, 0, 0)]had ye believed Moses[/COLOR],[/B] ye would have believed me:[SIZE=5][U][SIZE=5] [B][COLOR=rgb(255, 0, 0)]for he wrote of me.[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE][/U]
[/SIZE]
[URL='https://www.religiousforums.com/bible/galatians/3:29/'][COLOR=rgb(255, 0, 0)][B][U]Galatians 3:29[/U][/B][/COLOR][/URL][B] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Abraham's prophecy concerning the Messiah.)[/B]

[B]Abraham and Moses prophesized the coming Messiah.

So, still no God Jesus.[/B]
 
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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I don't know how you could have made it more plain. The poster obviously had no desire to acknowledge the facts that were available to see.

More plain? Then obviously you can go back over his posts and show me the PROOF in his posts, that John 1:18 should have- only begotten God, - rather then only begotten Son?

Proof! Not his opinion, not the author's opinion which had no proof in those author quotes.

You can't, because it is NOT there.

The author jumps all over the place quoting verses having nothing to do with 1:18.

The author seems to think that because he believes Theos in other texts must be translated God, - then somehow the word for son - must jump to a new translation as God. That does not even compute. Prove the word for son - which is what the verse says - is somehow mistranslated and should be God.

As well as the fact that we have shown in multiple verses being offered here, that not even Theos has to be translated as God. Look it up in your Strong's. Look back at the posts which challenge that assumption. Also -

In the Jesus verse, where he has been challenged by the priests claiming blasphemy, - Jesus' reply points us to a Tanakh text in which the word Elohiym is used. People thus assume God. However, the verse Jesus points us to - is actually calling Hebrew Judges, Elohiym, and Sons of God. Obviously there aren't millions of Gods in YHVH. Jesus is telling the priests explicitly that he is not claiming to be God, - but the Messiah, - the Ultimate Anointed Judge/priest that fulfills prophecy.

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Muffled

Jesus in me
Ok, the premise is that Jesus is God. Since it is rational to assume that the Father is God, too, then it comes natural to ask about the consequences of this premise. If the consequence does not contradict the premise, then it is acceptable. If not, then we have to review the premises. This is just basic logic.

So, if Jesus (and the Father) are God, does that entail that they both share the same knowledge? For instance, are they both all knowing, if God entails omniscience in its definition?

I wonder why you guys are so reluctant to answer such a simple and innocent question in a clear cut way.

Ciao

- viole

I believe, Yes the Spirit of Gd in Jesus is omniscient but the fleshly mind is not.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
It is a different way than a declaration. The OP contends a declaration where there is none.

The explanation remains, while the declaration remains nonexistent. If the declaration existed, then the explanation could not.

Even if Jesus makes this prayer God does not have to do what Jesus says or agree with his requests, at least not before Jesus death. After his death what does he pray for that God does not already want? So his intercession is really with us not with God. God does not need to change. People need to change.

I believe they are declarations. Why is it such a big deal that Jesus substitutes "Father" for "God?"

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

I believe since Jesus is God then it is effectively God's prayer.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
It still goes back to the idea of looking at "God" as you would look at a family. The husband is a completely independent person with his own thoughts and ideas. The wife is also a completely independent person. Each child is also independent. And yet there is only one "family". The Father and the Son are completely separate "persons" but they are one "God". If you use the word "God" to mean the Father then it leads to confusion. There is no such person as "God". There is the Father and the Son. They together are God.

I believe this similitude does not work.

I believe that kind of oneness is not the same as God's oneness.


I believe that depends on how one looks at it. I f one is saying "person" means a physical being then the Father is not a person. If one defines person as having personality then the Father and the Son have the same personality spiritually. If you say that Jesus and God are different persons because Jesus has a body and God doesn't then I would agree.

I believe Jesus uses the term both ways and it is confusing if one does not pay attention to context.

I believe there is no basis for that statement.

I believe this is not an essence but simply a temporal relationship.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe they are declarations. Why is it such a big deal that Jesus substitutes "Father" for "God?"

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

I believe since Jesus is God then it is effectively God's prayer.


Let us attempt to steer back towards the topic of the declaration. There is clearly no declaration which makes Jesus more divine than you or I. You are using argument to imply the Jesus is God in your opinion, because there is no declaration to quote. You make the odd choice of quoting from John, the gospel which explicitly points out the divinity in all of Jesus disciples, and it is John, the gospel in which Jesus prays for us to be one with the Father and with himself as he and the Father are one. As much as he is the Father so can you be, according to Jesus prayer in chapter 17 of John. How then is it a declaration that Jesus is any more divine than any other saint? What do you believe about that?

About your last comment about God making the prayer. Did you know Jesus prayed to be spared from death according to the author of Hebrews? (Hebrews 5:7) Yet if Peter objects to Jesus death Jesus says to him "Get behind me, Satan!" (Matt 16:23) So when Peter objects it is from Satan, but when Jesus objects to his death the objection is from God? That is what you suggest when you say God is making the prayers that Jesus makes. We all wish to live, and we all pray to live. Mortals would make such a prayer to be kept alive, but God is already immortal and has no need to live. I think what we see here is a conflict between Jesus spiritual desire and his flesh.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Agreed! Simply correcting a past error is NOT repentance.

Agreement is not something that happens often between us kjw, but I'm glad when it does. :)


Yes, and trying to date it has been stopped. They corrected the errors. Ones who lie( know its not a truth) yet teach it as truth, do not correct. Ones who have error but are ones seeking truth, correct.
The whole world has witnessed the correction. Making this a reality( Daniel 12:4) and this can be a reality- John 4:22-24-- the bottom line reality of life.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

οἴδαμεν δὲ ὅτι ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ ἥκει, καὶ δέδωκεν ἡμῖν διάνοιαν ἵνα γινώσκομεν / γινώσκωμεν τὸν ἀληθινόν· καί ἐσμεν ἐν τῷ ἀληθινῷ, ἐν τῷ υἱῷ αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ. οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ ἀληθινὸς θεὸς καὶ ζωὴ αἰώνιος.

This is where Granville Sharp enters the picture. Sharp developed a grammatical principle in which he discussed the semantics of this very construction. He then applied his “rule” to several christologically significant texts and argued that the construction could only be interpreted as affirming the deity of Christ.

"When the copulative και connects two nouns of the same case, [viz. nouns (either substantive or adjective, or participles) of personal description, respecting office, dignity, affinity, or connexion, and attributes, properties, or qualities, good or ill], if the article ὁ, or any of its cases, precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle: i.e. it denotes a farther description of the first-named person . . . ."

The Bible declares that Jesus is God.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Romans 6:23--- For the wages sin pays is death.--- thus all who died paid the wages of sin.

"For the wages sin pays is death.--- thus all who died paid the wages of sin."

Romans 6:23 (ESV Strong's) 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You are so deceived, you don't even see it.

Read it a few times if you have to to understand what it is saying, and show us where that says, when you die you have paid the wage of sin, it doesn't say anything about death paying the wage of sin. The wage you EARN from sin, is death.

"THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH"

That says, YOU SIN, YOU DIE. It doesn't say, YOU DIE, YOU PAID THE WAGE OF SIN

You work, the wage YOU ARE paid is money. You sin, the wage YOU ARE paid is death
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Yes, and trying to date it has been stopped. They corrected the errors. Ones who lie( know its not a truth) yet teach it as truth, do not correct. Ones who have error but are ones seeking truth, correct.
The whole world has witnessed the correction. Making this a reality( Daniel 12:4) and this can be a reality- John 4:22-24-- the bottom line reality of life.

It would be a lot easier to believe that nonsense, if the correction was made BEFORE the "TRUTH" failed to come to pass, or BEFORE they got caught up in the lie. Their "correction" has always been after the fact.

Does this apply to the 'slave also?

*** w50 11/15 p. 462 Fraudulent Religious Relics ***
“Supposing it [relic worship] to be in fact spurious,” the Catholic Encyclopedia says, “no dishonor is done to God by the continuance of an error which has been handed down in perfect good faith for many centuries.” How foreign and strange this doctrine to anything written in the Bible! Jehovah is the God of truth! (John 3:33; Rom. 3:4; Heb. 6:18) All error and lies are of the Devil and are certainly a great reproach and dishonor to God. (John 8:44; Rom. 1:25) Consequently, Jehovah is against all such pious frauds that teach lies in His name and He will clean them out at Armageddon.

They teach that "ALL ERROR" is of the devil, does that apply to your teachers also?
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
"For the wages sin pays is death.--- thus all who died paid the wages of sin."

Romans 6:23 (ESV Strong's) 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You are so deceived, you don't even see it.

Read it a few times if you have to to understand what it is saying, and show us where that says, when you die you have paid the wage of sin, it doesn't say anything about death paying the wage of sin. The wage you EARN from sin, is death.

"THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH"

That says, YOU SIN, YOU DIE. It doesn't say, YOU DIE, YOU PAID THE WAGE OF SIN

You work, the wage YOU ARE paid is money. You sin, the wage YOU ARE paid is death


The gift is free to all who spend their lives --NOW--doing Gods will by disowning themselves to follow Jesus--Matt 7:21--Matt 16:24-- The rest walk the broad and spacious path.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
It would be a lot easier to believe that nonsense, if the correction was made BEFORE the "TRUTH" failed to come to pass, or BEFORE they got caught up in the lie. Their "correction" has always been after the fact.

Does this apply to the 'slave also?

*** w50 11/15 p. 462 Fraudulent Religious Relics ***
“Supposing it [relic worship] to be in fact spurious,” the Catholic Encyclopedia says, “no dishonor is done to God by the continuance of an error which has been handed down in perfect good faith for many centuries.” How foreign and strange this doctrine to anything written in the Bible! Jehovah is the God of truth! (John 3:33; Rom. 3:4; Heb. 6:18) All error and lies are of the Devil and are certainly a great reproach and dishonor to God. (John 8:44; Rom. 1:25) Consequently, Jehovah is against all such pious frauds that teach lies in His name and He will clean them out at Armageddon.

They teach that "ALL ERROR" is of the devil, does that apply to your teachers also?


The whole world lies in the power of the wicked one--excluded none. So its a major mistake to think they will find perfection in Gods religion today--it wasn't there in Jesus day--The Israelites fell over and over in the ot--satan does not stop attacking Jesus seed.
The wise--know--satan gets errors in-- being like the Boreans and keep on looking and make correction each time an error is discovered is the wise path.


Jesus said of Peter--he would build his religion on that rock( Peter) yet right there in the bible, after all that Peter saw with his own eyes--lied 3 x about knowing Jesus out of fear of men. The rest took off out of their fear--after all the miracles they witnessed. Perfection will not be found in Jesus religion.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Jesus said of Peter--he would build his religion on that rock( Peter) yet right there in the bible, after all that Peter saw with his own eyes--lied 3 x about knowing Jesus out of fear of men. The rest took off out of their fear--after all the miracles they witnessed. Perfection will not be found in Jesus religion.

This post shows just how ignorant you are of the scriptures!

Matthew 16:15-18 (ESV Strong's) 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus wasn't saying He would build His church on Peter, how could that be? According to your teachers, after the last Apostle there were no more teachers until 1919.

Jesus asked Peter, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." That Truth, is the rock Jesus built His church on, that He is the Christ, the Son of the living God, not Peter. The church was built because of Who Jesus was/is, not on a mere imperfect man, as witnesses like to use that term!
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
So its a major mistake to think they will find perfection in Gods religion today--it wasn't there in Jesus day--

Maybe your god isn't able to keep his religion perfect, but mine is! Your god doesn't do much for your religion, he just sits back and is waiting for the end to come. Whatever happens to his people, well, it just happens
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
The gift is free to all who spend their lives --NOW--doing Gods will by disowning themselves to follow Jesus--Matt 7:21--Matt 16:24-- The rest walk the broad and spacious path.

Typical avoidance! Please show the forum how you get, "when we die, we have paid the wage for sin".

Romans 6:23 (ESV Strong's) 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
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