The Bible is gay

[Faithofchristian]

With my resume, I don’t “try out” for internet entertainment. Not playing that game with you.

It figures, 15 years shot down

2 Timothy 3:7--" Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[sojourner]

It figures, 15 years shot down

2 Timothy 3:7--" Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

You didn’t bother to read the rest of the post. Or else you ignored it, Mr. “Book of Mark 13.” One more time: it doesn’t address the translational problem you mentioned. It’s an interpretation issue. Therefore, it’s simply not cogent to the argument at hand.

But please, continue with the mock-superiority tactic. It’s mildly entertaining.

 

[Deeje]

Most people get this all wrong. Say we ran an experiment where we simulate the ancient world, when there were no contraceptives, no abortions, and no medications for STD's. The ancient world did not have insurance plans and huge and expensive social programs. It was a poor time close to natural living.

As an experiment we will allow all manner of modern sexual behavior but without any social mops to clean up the mess. This will simulate the ancient times. For one thing, all the modern STD will appear and spread, since there is no mop. New diseases will then appear that has no cure, since this is ancient times. Gay behavior would be very risky, since there was no remedy mop for the result of insanitary behavior. The result of disease and the transmission of disease, will impact offspring and generate children without parents, at a time there is no social safety net. Such a culture would be doomed. The wage of sin was death, but this death would be at the hands of the sinners since you could see the damage around you.

Modern culture and medical science has created prosthesis that support illusions that certain behavior is natural. However, this is all based the ability to mop up the mess. If we take away the mop, like in ancient times, it is easier to see where natural selection begins and ends. The ancient could see what was natural based on what survived, remained healthy and prospered, even without a mop.

As an example of the modern scam, chickens peck at the ground and will eat little rocks along with seeds and bugs. Therefore according to modern thinking, eating rocks is natural since some animals do this. If I started to eat rocks and medical science could provide services to assist my digestive track and constantly fix my broken teeth due to chewing on rocks, some would call this natural behavior, since chickens do it and the humans, who do this, appear normal. If we take away the mop and let nature run its course, what is natural, is what remains healthy without the mop. It is now easier to see what is unnatural and a product of willower and choice.

Excellent food for thought in that post wellwisher. The "mop" is what prevents people from understanding how bad their own behavior really is by lessening its natural impact. It reminds me of modern medicine and their pill popping mentality. Doctors indoctrinated into that system are trained to prescribe drugs, which almost always cost a fortune and have a list of detrimental side effects. If the drug has side effects, its the body's way of saying "get that stuff away from me!" but rather than stop the drug, they will prescribe other drugs to offset those side effects...to "mop" them up so that the damage done by the first drug will be less noticeable.

In today's world, the diseases caused by illicit sexual misconduct can be "mopped up" by medications designed to lessen the effects of the disease without actually curing it...thereby creating customers for life....and giving people the impression that they can engage in whatever lifestyle they please because someone has provided a "mop". How sad that greed and selfishness drives everything.

Its a sick world ruled by a wicked and deceptive dictator. (1 John 5:19)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

First, you write this:

.....when I worshiped Jehovah.

Then you write...

being so utterly afraid just because of who you are that night after night you cry yourself to sleep and have nightmares of Hell that are so vivid you can feel the fires burning your flesh.

???????

Something isn't right here! Totally inconsistent. And this isn't the first time.

What kind of mess are you pulling??

 

[Hockeycowboy]

You already are arguing. Merely choosing, at this point, to try the “I’m picking up my marbles and going home” ploy does not excuse you from providing evidence to back up the argument you have already posed (that the Bible is against homosexuality).

Sounds to me as if you’re admitting defeat here. I’ll cheerfully await the conclusion of the deal.

@Musicfan , just quote a Scripture!

Like Leviticus 20:13

 

[sojourner]

@Musicfan , just quote a Scripture!

Like Leviticus 20:13

Nope. That patently does not say, “The Bible is against homosexuality.” It says something about lying with a man as with a woman. That ain’t homosexuality. It isn’t even strictly an act of homosexual people.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Nope. That patently does not say, “The Bible is against homosexuality.” It says something about lying with a man as with a woman. That ain’t homosexuality. It isn’t even strictly an act of homosexual people.

Only if you spin it. But that is what it means.

 

[Deeje]

OK....now we are getting to the nitty gritty.....its all making sense now.

Many churches, whose clergy are called by God, endorse (in God’s name) same sex marriages.

Anyone who messes with God's original standard for marriage, restated by Jesus for all of his disciples, stands as a sad example of those who do not care what God thinks but rather what immoral humans want to practice.

"Clergy" can endorse whatever they like...it doesn't mean that God endorses them or their "theological take". You do understand this?

1) I HIGHLY resent your placing of “church” in quotations, as if these aren’t “real” churches. I happen to be duly ordained and hold standing in one of these denominations, and have participated in same sex weddings.

So a definite need for justification then...I understand clearly now.

I place "church" in quotation marks because IMO any "church" or "clergy" who ditches the Bible's teaching to facilitate the scratching of the itching ears of the masses has no place with Jesus. ( 2 Timothy 2:2-4) His words at Matthew 7:21-23 indicate that "many" would think of themselves as good "Christians" at the time of judgment, but are not found "doing the will of the Father"....they were obviously following the will of others. It does not end well for them. I am not your judge....he is.

It is not a “purely secular arrangement;” my signature as a member of the clergy isn’t there by secular authority. You have 0 authority to stand in judgment of what is “real” where the church is concerned. You’ve crossed a line here; I expect an apology.

Please don't hold your breath. Jesus 'crossed the line' too when he castigated the Pharisees for their blatant hypocrisy. They got all hot and bothered over his assault on their credentials too.....I follow Jesus and I stick to God's word. I speak the truth as I understand it and if it makes you feel uncomfortable to have your "qualifications" and knowledge challenged then I think you need to climb down off your high horse because your credentials mean nothing to me. Who gave them to you? No one I respect as teachers of truth.

None of the apostles attended any schools of higher education to learn how to be Christ's disciples.....they needed no worldly qualifications as if a diploma or degree makes one person more qualified as a teacher of God's word than any other who has put in time to study it thoroughly.

2) there is no law in the Bible expressly forbidding same sex marriage.

Jesus said to the Pharisees, quoting their own scripture ...."Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” (Matthew 19:4-6 NASB)
Do you see any dispensation in his words that would allow an alteration to God's arrangement? This is a sacred union designed to produce a family by natural means.

There were specific laws prohibiting homosexual sex in Israel and restated to Christians. (Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-28) God's law was specific and it incurred the death penalty to engage in what was called an "abomination". Does God have a different set of standards just because the world has become more depraved and has demanded what God did not give them? Did Jesus teach us about a changeable God? (Hebrews 13:8-9) Please show me where he says he has changed his mind on this issue.

Sounds like a lot of “original sin” hooey to me. I don’t embrace that doctrine, so it does not inform my theological take.

Argue that with Paul. (Romans 5:12) But I am expecting you to reject any scripture that fails to endorse your own view. Your "theological take" is your own affair. But you know that teachers have a greater accountability, don't you? (Hebrews 13:17)

I’m speechless.....how can one who knows so little about me stand in judgment here? When you’ve gotten a critical and authoritative look at my academics, you will have earned the privilege of judging what I do or don’t know.

From your responses it was very apparent to me that you knew very little about the deeper things attached to your subject matter....what on earth do they teach you in those Bible colleges? Your "academics" have let you down I'm afraid. Your responses were not what I would expect of someone who claims to be a formally educated church clergyman....then again, maybe they were.

In one post you’ve managed to cram two whole shoe stores in your mouth by 1) intimating that I’m not a true Christian without the authority to do so

OK...so apparently I have touched the ego nerve.....oh dear. What authority do I need? I have God's word...won't that do?

and 2) that I don’t know my theology, without proper knowledge of my academic record. I’d quit before I damaged more of my street cred, ‘f I were you.

LOL...IMO your academic record means nothing to anyone but other humans....so "street cred" is hardly what I seek.....perhaps that has become more important to those who seem more intent on pleasing wayward humans than staying true to God and his moral standards.....clearly stated in God's word.

So, I believe you have to ignore a lot of scripture to do that.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Many churches, whose clergy are called by God, endorse (in God’s name) same sex marriages.

And many of these same church organizations, i.e., clergy, have supported their respective countries in times of conflict, preferring national brotherhood over spiritual brotherhood. Are they "called by God" for that, too? Titus 1:16 is applicable, to those who knowingly disobey Christ in order to gain favor with the corrupt world. James 4:4.

The reputation christendom has forged of killing their enemies and brothers has been going on so long (since the 4th century AD), you probably don't see anything wrong with it!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Something isn't right here! Totally inconsistent. And this isn't the first time.

What kind of mess are you pulling??

What wasn't right was the very deeply rooted fears of Hell that were instilled in me for no other reason than who I am. When everybody else is more or less allowed to be themselves, except for you, because god would hate you and cast you into that fire the Bible so frequently mentions - and Southern Baptists have a fetish for reminding people the Bible does mention Hell more often than Heaven.
Worshiping Jehovah was traumatizing.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

he's not a creep sorry

If paying close enough attention to someone to know what they are sexually doing isn't being a total creep, then I don't know what is.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And many of these same church organizations, i.e., clergy,

It was one of those clergy you speak ill of who got me off my "hating all Christians and everything about it" kick I was on after I left the Church.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

What wasn't right was the very deeply rooted fears of Hell that were instilled in me for no other reason than who I am. When everybody else is more or less allowed to be themselves, except for you, because god would hate you and cast you into that fire the Bible so frequently mentions - and Southern Baptists have a fetish for reminding people the Bible does mention Hell more often than Heaven.
Worshiping Jehovah was traumatizing.

You should stop writing, or else get a bigger shovel. Everyone who's ever been associated with Jehovah's Witnesses knows that Jehovah's people don't teach Hellfire, so we certainly don't scare anyone with such nonsense!

Now I can't trust anything else you ever say....you've branded yourself.

 

[Deeje]

What wasn't right was the very deeply rooted fears of Hell that were instilled in me for no other reason than who I am. When everybody else is more or less allowed to be themselves, except for you, because god would hate you and cast you into that fire the Bible so frequently mentions - and Southern Baptists have a fetish for reminding people the Bible does mention Hell more often than Heaven.
Worshiping Jehovah was traumatizing.

Shadow Wolf...it sounds to me like you were never in a situation of worshiping Jehovah at all if that was the case.....Jehovah does not torture people in hell. It must have been a Southern Baptist church where the fear of hell was used against you.....you will never hear about such things in a Kingdom Hall. Worshipping Jehovah should never be traumatizing. He doesn't hate anyone....but he can hate what they do. He gives all the option of serving him in obedience, or else living their life in this world alienated from him. It's always sad when people are given a completely wrong impression of God. He has such a wonderful future planned for us, but not everyone wants what he is offering. It is conditional, for some, difficult.....not certainly not impossible.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You should stop writing, or else get a bigger shovel. Everyone who's ever been associated with Jehovah's Witnesses knows that Jehovah's people don't teach Hellfire, so we certainly don't scare anyone with such nonsense!

Now I can't trust anything else you ever say....you've branded yourself.

I didn't say specifically Jehovah's Witness, and did at least once specifically state Southern Baptist. Different denominations, but same Bible. And incase you've never been to a Southern Baptist sermon, they are very big into hellfire and damnation, even condemning every other denomination because they are doing some thing wrong. Literally, when you logically follow their position through, everyone in heaven is a Southern Baptist.
And they aren't the only ones. It's not unusual for a variety of Conservative denominations to adore the play Heaven's Gates/Hell's Fires. It's more reinforcement of "if you **** up you're going to Hell to burn for eternity."
I still don't like the religion, but I also used to hate Christians until an Episcopalian priest showed me what being a Christian is, by being an example of loving your neighbor instead of threatening hellfire. He showed the love of Christ to the point he lost a huge chunk of his church membership when he began to openly welcomed "practicing" homosexuals into his church (this was over a decade ago, back when few other churches would). No messages of judgement, eternal torture, or a wrathful god, but open arms and acceptance. After all, when Jesus fed the masses, he didn't say "no gay's allowed."
I'm also aware the Jehovah's Witnesses tend to not touch the LGBT subject. However, you'll never understand what the sting of "a serious sin" will do to someone when that is who they are. It's not like an addiction where a series of mishaps leads to tragedy. It's not like a temptation to steal because you're hungry. It is a soul incinerating sting that ruins lives.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Shadow Wolf...it sounds to me like you were never in a situation of worshiping Jehovah at all if that was the case..

Yes, of course....my experiences don't match yours so I wasn't a "real/true Christian."

He has such a wonderful future planned for us, but not everyone wants what he is offering. It is conditional, for some, difficult.....not certainly not impossible.

He would basically have to show me that this "wonderful future" would indeed exist and that there would be some meaning to the agony of having to not be yourself.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How would you know that being gay is right?

Thats a very racialist descriminative questions. Thats like saying, how do you know being jew or a black person is right.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You should stop writing, or else get a bigger shovel. Everyone who's ever been associated with Jehovah's Witnesses knows that Jehovah's people don't teach Hellfire, so we certainly don't scare anyone with such nonsense!

Now I can't trust anything else you ever say....you've branded yourself.

Hockey, I have an honest question for you.

Since JW believe non-belieers would die and thats it (right?), is evernal life the only advantage that nonbelievers are missing out to where their present religions or worldviews offers otherwise?

Or do christians see us missing the christian lifestyle as more benefitial than their religons and worldviews in addition to afterlife security benefits?

 

[Deeje]

Yes, of course....my experiences don't match yours so I wasn't a "real/true Christian."

That is not what I said....I said that Jehovah does not torture anyone in a fiery hell, so you were not worshiping Jehovah at all.
True Christianity does not misrepresent the God of the Bible, making him out to be a monster when he is no such thing. Go back to Genesis and see what God gave humans in the beginning.....that is what we get back.

Everlasting life in the Bible is contrasted with everlasting death...there is no hell of torture or torment. We are either alive or we are dead....that's it. Death is nothing more than a peaceful sleep. For those who pay 'sin's wages', a resurrection is foretold, but for the wicked (those who willfully oppose their Creator) he will simply take away the unappreciated gift of life. He is the giver of life and he can withdraw that privilege for those who do not value it. He would have no need to punish anyone with pain and suffering with no way for it to end. It would serve no purpose.

He would basically have to show me that this "wonderful future" would indeed exist and that there would be some meaning to the agony of having to not be yourself.

Show you? He cannot show you until he restores the earth back to its original state, eliminating sin, aging and death....along with all those humans who want to cause trouble for everyone else. Every cause of human suffering will be gone. He has given us prophesy to show us in word pictures how it will be....but the real thing is programmed into human hearts. We all know that the life we are living is not the one we want. We are programmed for a very different life.

God promises....
"He will render judgment among the nations
And set matters straight respecting many peoples.

They will beat their swords into plowshares
And their spears into pruning shears.

Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
Nor will they learn war anymore." (isaiah 2:4)

No more war....world peace....and peace with every living thing.

Isaiah also foretells the time when....."The wolf will reside for a while with the lamb,
And with the young goat the leopard will lie down,
And the calf and the lion and the fattened animal will all be together;
And a little boy will lead them.

7 The cow and the bear will feed together,
And their young will lie down together.

The lion will eat straw like the bull.
8 The nursing child will play over the lair of a cobra,
And a weaned child will put his hand over the den of a poisonous snake.

9 They will not cause any harm
Or any ruin in all my holy mountain,
Because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah
As the waters cover the sea." (Isaiah 11:6-9)

In Isaiah 65 God goes on to say.....

"For the former distresses will be forgotten;
They will be concealed from my eyes.

17 For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be called to mind,
Nor will they come up into the heart.. . . .

They will build houses and live in them,
And they will plant vineyards and eat their fruitage.

22 They will not build for someone else to inhabit,
Nor will they plant for others to eat.

For the days of my people will be like the days of a tree,
And the work of their hands my chosen ones will enjoy to the full.

23 They will not toil* for nothing,
Nor will they bear children for distress,
Because they are the offspring* made up of those blessed by Jehovah,
And their descendants with them.

24 Even before they call out, I will answer;
While they are yet speaking, I will hear.

25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
The lion will eat straw just like the bull,
And the serpent’s food will be dust.

They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” says Jehovah." (Isaiah 65:16-17; 21-25)

These are the things that offset the pain of this life for me. I close my eyes and I can see it.

The meaning behind the agony suffered by all of us (to some degree or other is) is that a rebel spirit challenged us as humans and said that if he made the going tough that we would all curse God and leave him.....he said we would only serve God if he gave us everything and protected us from harm.....the only way to prove him wrong was to allow each of us to prove him a liar.

The reward for our faith in God and our determination to uphold his rightful sovereignty will be everlasting life in paradise conditions forever....no pain, no suffering, no death....ever again.(Revelation 21:2-4)

It is what God gave the first humans in Eden....and what satan tricked them out of. Stepping outside of the boundaries set by God does not benefit anyone...it only causes us more problems. Its a painful lesson for many.....but the door is not closed yet. God welcomes everyone who wants what he is offering. Its up to us.

 

[sojourner]

Only if you spin it. But that is what it means.

No. That isn’t what it means. It doesn’t mean “The Bible is against homosexuality.” You’re making an assumption based on a biased lens.