The Bible, Israel, significance

[allright]

O.k., so is Israel is going to convert to Christianity?

Yes or at least a very large number, at the end of tribulation when the church is removed

Zechariah 12:10 "they shall look upon me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son"

Mathew 24:30 also "all the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of Heaven"
"tribes" refers to only to Israel in the New Testament

Revelations 1:7 every eye shall see him,they which pierced him and all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of him

 

[fallingblood]

Yes or at least a very large number, at the end of tribulation when the church is removed

Zechariah 12:10 "they shall look upon me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son"

Mathew 24:30 also "all the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of Heaven"
"tribes" refers to only to Israel in the New Testament

Revelations 1:7 every eye shall see him,they which pierced him and all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of him

I would just like to point out that none of those speak of conversion. The author of Matthew, and probably Revelations (definitely Zechariah) were not Christians. They were Jews. None of them speak of leaving Judaism.

 

[allright]

I would just like to point out that none of those speak of conversion. The author of Matthew, and probably Revelations (definitely Zechariah) were not Christians. They were Jews. None of them speak of leaving Judaism.

Jesus is the fufillment of Judaism. Their is nothing more Jewish than following the Messiah, in fact Moses said those who disobeyed the Messiah would be cut off from the nation of Israel.
Your kidding right The writers of Mathew and Revelations werent Christians?

 

[fallingblood]

Jesus is the fufillment of Judaism. Their is nothing more Jewish than following the Messiah, in fact Moses said those who disobeyed the Messiah would be cut off from the nation of Israel.
Your kidding right The writers of Mathew and Revelations werent Christians?

Matthew was Jewish. So was John who wrote Revelations. The religion of Christianity really hadn't quite formed yet. But most scholars, especially for Matthew, recognize that he was in fact Jewish. It is also the most Jewish of all the Gospels.

Jesus also wasn't the fulfillment of Judaism, nor did he claim such. Yes, he said that he came to fulfill the law, but every Jew fulfills the law by keeping it. If read in context, Jesus also said he did not come to abolish the law, and that we were to continue to follow the law, to the t, until the end of time (or the second-coming as the idea is in Christianity).

As for the Messiah, most consider that he failed. I'm a Christian, and I think he failed, because he simply didn't fulfill the basic idea of being the Messiah. That is freeing the Jews from subjugation. Jesus died, and the Jews ended up having it even worse off. That, for most Jews, would signify that Jesus failed.

 

[Caladan]

Why did the Bible gain such significance? Why is Israel, largely unrelated to the spread of Christianity gain such significance in Christian thought?

Because the very beginning of the gospels goes into extreme pains to prove the royal Israelite bloodline of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christian saviour.

 

[Desert Snake]

Because the very beginning of the gospels goes into extreme pains to prove the royal Israelite bloodline of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christian saviour.

But why does it go beyond that. And considering the spread of Christianity was almost entirely outside of Israel, why would Israel hold such import to Christianity.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But why does it go beyond that. And considering the spread of Christianity was almost entirely outside of Israel, why would Israel hold such import to Christianity.

You mean: "... to some streams of Christianity."

 

[Desert Snake]

You mean: "... to some streams of Christianity."

O.k., seems like most to me, but may be they are just the most vocal.

 

[Caladan]

But why does it go beyond that. And considering the spread of Christianity was almost entirely outside of Israel, why would Israel hold such import to Christianity.

If you don't see why such connections make Israel prominent in Christianity, I have no idea how to explain it better.

Christianity was born in ancient Israel. The protagonists of the Christian scriptures are Jews who practiced the Jewish faith. Jesus believed he only came for the House of Israel. Jews wrote the Christian scriptures. The social environment of the gospels is a Jewish environment, discussing the problems of Jewish society. One of the chief themes of the Old Testament is the covenant of God with the People of Israel, if you take out Israel you are left without King David, King Solomon, the Hebrew Prophets, Moses, Sinai and the ten commandments, and of course without Jesus himself, a descendent of the Davidic line and a Jewish man from Israel.
In other words, without all that ,you are left with nothing. You would deny the history, roots, and contents of the foundations of Christianity. And of course without the prophecies about the nation of Israel. You would have to relinquish all the prophets of Israel, Jesus' faith, and the entire context of his message.

Furthermore, Christianity might have spread rapidly out of Israel, but it spread FROM Israel, and by Israelites, or rather by Jews.

 

[allright]

Matthew was Jewish. So was John who wrote Revelations. The religion of Christianity really hadn't quite formed yet. But most scholars, especially for Matthew, recognize that he was in fact Jewish. It is also the most Jewish of all the Gospels.

Jesus also wasn't the fulfillment of Judaism, nor did he claim such. Yes, he said that he came to fulfill the law, but every Jew fulfills the law by keeping it. If read in context, Jesus also said he did not come to abolish the law, and that we were to continue to follow the law, to the t, until the end of time (or the second-coming as the idea is in Christianity).

As for the Messiah, most consider that he failed. I'm a Christian, and I think he failed, because he simply didn't fulfill the basic idea of being the Messiah. That is freeing the Jews from subjugation. Jesus died, and the Jews ended up having it even worse off. That, for most Jews, would signify that Jesus failed.

This is just nonsense.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This is just nonsense.

That his understanding of Judaism fails to align with your ignorance of the topic is hardly grounds for declaring the former to be nonsense. The only way to get a Christ-like messiah from the Tanakh is by cynically or foolishly raping the text.

 

[allright]

That his understanding of Judaism fails to align with your ignorance of the topic is hardly grounds for declaring the former to be nonsense. The only way to get a Christ-like messiah from the Tanakh is by cynically or foolishly raping the text.

As Jesus said if you believed Moses you would believe in me because he spoke of me. You are the one ignorant of your own scriptures, not me.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As Jesus said if you believed Moses you would believe in me.

Well, if the author of John says that Jesus says ... then I guess it must be true.

 

[George-ananda]

Why did the Bible gain such significance? Why is Israel, largely unrelated to the spread of Christianity gain such significance in Christian thought?

The obvious answer is because Jesus was a Jew and accepted the old testament as the word of God. Hence Christians inherited it.

However, I think in modern times a very rapid decline in the importance of the Old Testament can be seen. The old testament and Israel will, correctly in my opinion, continue to have declining importance in spiritual thought.

 

[fallingblood]

This is just nonsense.

It's alright if you see it as such; however, it may be more effective if you were able to voice your reasons as to why it is nonsense. A simple dismissal does neither one of us any good.

 

[Shermana]

This is just nonsense.

And why is that?

 

[Shermana]

The obvious answer is because Jesus was a Jew and accepted the old testament as the word of God. Hence Christians inherited it.

However, I think in modern times a very rapid decline in the importance of the Old Testament can be seen. The old testament and Israel will, correctly in my opinion, continue to have declining importance in spiritual thought.

Why is it your opinion that it will "correctly" have declining importance?

 

[Shermana]

As Jesus said if you believed Moses you would believe in me because he spoke of me. You are the one ignorant of your own scriptures, not me.

The point of that quote was to say that he was teaching the correct means of interpreting the Law.

The Clementine Literature spells that out more directly.

Jay:

That his understanding of Judaism fails to align with your ignorance of the topic is hardly grounds for declaring the former to be nonsense. The only way to get a Christ-like messiah from the Tanakh is by cynically or foolishly raping the text.

Which is why I believe that much of the "Messianic prophecy" comes from works that were recognized at the time by smaller sects outside of the canonized Tanakh.

http://thebellwetherdaily.blogspot.com/2008/07/dead-sea-stone-tablet-discovered-in.html

 

[George-ananda]

Why is it your opinion that it will "correctly" have declining importance?

Because I believe the Old Testament was created by well-meaning people from one particular group about 2,500 years ago. Plus, some of the old testament thinking attributed to God does not square well with our more modern understanding of a just and loving God. It's not reasonable to think God and the spirit world communicated primarily with this group to the general exclusion of other cultures and times. To me, there is a ton of superior literature by saints, holy men, mystics, thinkers from other cultures and times.

 

[allright]

Why did the Bible gain such significance? Why is Israel, largely unrelated to the spread of Christianity gain such significance in Christian thought?

1 God said he would dwell their forever.

2 Jesus has to return to the nation of Israel as king

3 Jesus said in Luke that the Jews after being expelled from Jerusalem would return and govern it again (1968)

4 Paul said that Christians are grafted into Israel as unnatural branches