The Bible says Jesus is God

[Etritonakin]

So again, where does it say "The word who became Christ DID the actual creating -as willed by the Father." like you said?

Literally that whole post.
I'm going to assume you are not serious.

 

[firedragon]

Literally that whole post.
I'm going to assume you are not serious.

Nowhere in that post does it say "The word who became Christ DID the actual creating -as willed by the Father.". Even if one is to believe that the prologue of John is Gods word or what ever inspiration you wish to believe in, yet, it only says Di Autou, which means "Through him". That does not and can never mean "Christ did the actual creating as willed by the father".

Way way way too much inference.

But since you are the proponent, you could point to the exact sentence and explain rather than saying "I assume you are not serious".

 

[1213]

Jesus, the Creator of ALL things
John 1:3+10
All things were made through him….
…If Jesus is not God, did he create himself? Did God create himself?

It says through Jesus, I think it means, God created through Jesus, for example because:

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works…
John 14:10-14

I am not able of myself to do anything; according as I hear I judge, and my judgment is righteous, because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who sent me.
John 5:30

Bible tells Jesus is the image of God and first born of all creation.

in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation…
Colossians 1:14-16

Because of that, I believe God created Jesus.

 

[cataway]

Seriously, no Jesus and God are two separate beings. Christians are wrong. In any other context a son being his own father would be nonsense. The Bible repeatedly says "son of God" the Bible never says "God the son" that's something Christians came up with.

false Christion's

 

[cataway]

So again, where does it say "The word who became Christ DID the actual creating -as willed by the Father." like you said?

i find it interesting that people dont know why

 

[Etritonakin]

Nowhere in that post does it say "The word who became Christ DID the actual creating -as willed by the Father.". Even if one is to believe that the prologue of John is Gods word or what ever inspiration you wish to believe in, yet, it only says Di Autou, which means "Through him". That does not and can never mean "Christ did the actual creating as willed by the father".

Way way way too much inference.

But since you are the proponent, you could point to the exact sentence and explain rather than saying "I assume you are not serious".

Nooooooo. It says exactly that.
All things were made BY him and FOR him.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Nooooooo. It says exactly that.
All things were made BY him and FOR him.

..... continuing in Colossians 1:15-16 created 'by' (THROUGH) him'.
Or as John 1:10 says ... and the world came into existence 'by' (THROUGH) him.
At Hebrews 1:2 God speaks to us 'by' (THROUGH) His Son, by whom he made the world.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes you see God created himself and then used himself to create everything then impregnated his mom and went to earth and became human to die and bring himself back to life to go back to heaven as God. Makes perfect sense.

In the Bible we find that God is Creator (Revelation 4:11) and that God did Not create Himself.
According to Psalms 90:2 God is from everlasting meaning God has No beginning.
So, the ^above^ post is Not what the Bible teaches, just that man tries to say that Jesus is his own God.
When we find at Revelation 3:12 that the resurrected heavenly Jesus still thinks he has a God over him.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Seriously, no Jesus and God are two separate beings. Christians are wrong. In any other context a son being his own father would be nonsense. The Bible repeatedly says "son of God" the Bible never says "God the son" that's something Christians came up with.

Or, something that false Christians came up with.
Remember Jesus forewarned that genuine 'wheat' Christians would grow together with the fake 'weed/tares' Christians - Matthew 13:36-43
This is why Jesus could say that MANY would come in his name but prove false - Matthew 7:21-23
Jesus truthfully answers who he is at John 10:36 _____________________

 

[firedragon]

Nooooooo. It says exactly that.
All things were made BY him and FOR him.

Nowhere.

Nowhere in that post does it say "The word who became Christ DID the actual creating -as willed by the Father.". Even if one is to believe that the prologue of John is Gods word or what ever inspiration you wish to believe in, yet, it only says Di Autou, which means "Through him". That does not and can never mean "Christ did the actual creating as willed by the father".

Way way way too much inference.

But since you are the proponent, you could point to the exact sentence and explain rather than saying "I assume you are not serious".

 

[Brian2]

All things were made "through" him and without him nothing has been made (so jesus is an tool or vehicle of creation not the creator.)

The thing to notice about John 1:3 is that it implies that the Word was not made, did not come into existence.
God is the only one who has had no beginning, so the Word is God.
If you think that God and the Word have existed from eternity then that would be the only way that John 1:3 would mean that the Word (Jesus) is not God.

Through is an important word in this case. If water runs through a pipe that doesn't mean the pipe is the water and it also doesn't mean the source of where the water came from is also the pipe.

If there was no pipe then there would be no creation. If there was nobody creating then there would be no creation.

Through...
Romans 11:35 “Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?”
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

An interesting thing about Romans 11:36 is that it says it is about God.
Does that mean that God is just a tool?
God in total was there at the creation, creating. It does not matter if the Father was doing the design and the Word was doing the creating bit and the Holy Spirit was being foreman or whatever. It was God who did it.

 

[Brian2]

Seriously, no Jesus and God are two separate beings. Christians are wrong. In any other context a son being his own father would be nonsense. The Bible repeatedly says "son of God" the Bible never says "God the son" that's something Christians came up with.

Trinitarians do not say that the Son fathered Himself. Your understanding of the Trinity is faulty.

 

[Brian2]

Thank you for your reply. I hope you will look up the verses that I did Not quote.
I find Jesus was ' first born ' in the -> heavens.
To me, Israel and Ephraim was Not located in the heavens.
Colossians 1:15 places pre-human heavenly Jesus as first born in the -> heavens.

Psalm 89 tells us that God appointed Jesus to be His firstborn.
Psalm 89:27 And I will appoint him to be my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
It is interesting that if "firstborn" means only as the Watchtower teaches, "first one of a group to be born", ie first in time, then Psalm 89:27 does not make sense because a firstborn would be born first, not appointed.
Similarly at Col 1:15,16 the word firstborn does not mean first one born of creation. It actually CANNOT mean that because we know that Jesus was not created because John 1:3 and Col 1:16 and other places tell us that through Him ALL THINGS were created. Unless you think that He brought Himself into existence then Jesus was not created.
"Firstborn" is a word that means "preeminent" as well as "first one born" and this is what it logically means at Col 1:15.
The uncreated Logos did however step into creation and so can be said to be "of creation" after that point of becoming a man, but He was not created.
The Watchtower actually changes the Bible in their New World Translation at Col 1:15-19 to make it look as if Jesus was created.

So, yes, there could only be one 'first born' in the heavens, thus pre-human Jesus being the beginning of the creation by God - Rev. 3:14 B
Yes, being ' first born' would definitely be a title of Honor, but a title does Not mean he was Not a creation.

A title does not mean He was not a creation but John 1:3 etc means that He was not a creation.
This is another place where the Watchtower ignore the obvious and try to change it's meaning.
Rev 3:14 means that Jesus is the ruler of creation. The first in priority again, not in time.

Jesus was before any other creation both in heaven and on earth.

That is what the Watchtower tells you, not what the Bible tells you. The Watchtower is the one that adds "other" and changes the meaning of the Bible. The Bible tells us that Jesus before ALL THINGS. (Col 1:17)
Notice that there is not "other" in there except in the Watchtower Bible.

Please notice the word ' and ' at 1 Corinthians 8:6 because it mentions that for Christians there is one God (that is the Father) AND one Lord Jesus Christ.....

Please notice that Jehovah is called "Lord" in the OT at various places (eg Psalm 16:2) and that would mean, since Jesus is our only Lord, that Jesus is Jehovah.
Certainly the Father being our only God did not stop Thomas calling Jesus "my Lord and my God" so the Son is also our God.
The Father is not the Son but the 2 are one Jehovah. The word one in the Shema (Deut 6:4) is a compound one as in Genesis where it says that Adam and Eve would become one flesh.

 

[Etritonakin]

..... continuing in Colossians 1:15-16 created 'by' (THROUGH) him'.
Or as John 1:10 says ... and the world came into existence 'by' (THROUGH) him.
At Hebrews 1:2 God speaks to us 'by' (THROUGH) His Son, by whom he made the world.

Through him by actually having him do the creating part. Yes. That was my point.

 

[paarsurrey]

The Bible says Jesus is God

Please quote in this connection from the Jewish Bible (called OT), which Jesus used to believe in, read from and did his action accordingly. Jesus never read from the 4 Gospels, please. Right?

Regards

 

[Brian2]

The Bible says Jesus is God

Please quote in this connection from the Jewish Bible (called OT), which Jesus used to believe in, read from and did his action accordingly. Jesus never read from the 4 Gospels, please. Right?

Regards

Jesus lived the gospels and spoke the things that are in the gospels.
Concerning the Messiah the OT says.
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Psalm 102: 24 So I said:
“Do not take me away, my God, in the midst of my days;
your years go on through all generations.
25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.
27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.
28 The children of your servants will live in your presence;
their descendants will be established before you.”
Isa 8:13 The LORD of Hosts is the One you shall regard as holy. Only He should be feared; only He should be dreaded. 14 And He will be a sanctuary— but to both houses of Israel a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, to the dwellers of Jerusalem a trap and a snare.
Gen 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.
Psalm 2:8 Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.
Psalm 82:8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.
Isa 63:2 Why are Your clothes red, and Your garments like one who treads the winepress? 3“I have trodden the winepress alone, and no one from the nations was with Me. I trampled them in My anger and trod them down in My fury; their blood spattered My garments, and all My clothes were stained. 4For the day of vengeance was in My heart, and the year of My redemption had come.…
etcetera
Some of these are not obvious unless you first read the New Testament, but some are plain in the Old Testament if it is read correctly.

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus lived the gospels and spoke the things that are in the gospels.
Concerning the Messiah the OT says.
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Psalm 102: 24 So I said:
“Do not take me away, my God, in the midst of my days;
your years go on through all generations.
25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.
27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.
28 The children of your servants will live in your presence;
their descendants will be established before you.”
Isa 8:13 The LORD of Hosts is the One you shall regard as holy. Only He should be feared; only He should be dreaded. 14 And He will be a sanctuary— but to both houses of Israel a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, to the dwellers of Jerusalem a trap and a snare.
Gen 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.
Psalm 2:8 Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.
Psalm 82:8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.
Isa 63:2 Why are Your clothes red, and Your garments like one who treads the winepress? 3“I have trodden the winepress alone, and no one from the nations was with Me. I trampled them in My anger and trod them down in My fury; their blood spattered My garments, and all My clothes were stained. 4For the day of vengeance was in My heart, and the year of My redemption had come.…
etcetera
Some of these are not obvious unless you first read the New Testament, but some are plain in the Old Testament if it is read correctly.

I don't find the name Jesus in any of the quotes one gave from the Jewish Bible (or OT) that Jesus and Mary used to read from and act accordingly, please. Kindly highlight for me if I missed it, please. Right?

Regards

 

[Brian2]

I don't find the name Jesus in any of the quotes one gave from the Jewish Bible (or OT) that Jesus and Mary used to read from and act accordingly, please. Kindly highlight for me if I missed it, please. Right?

Regards

Does that mean that if the Messiah has a name, none of the Messianic prophecies can be about him?
Nevertheless the quotes show that the Messiah is called God in the Old Testament.