The Bible Tells Me So

[nPeace]

Is Jesus God?
Is God Unchanging?
Is the Holy Spirit God?
Is God a Trinity?
What must a person believe to be saved?
Is Baptism required for salvation?
Can salvation be lost?
What is the nature of communion/the Eucharist?
Should we still keep the Sabbath? How?
Can women be pastors?
Can gay people be pastors?
How should the church organization be structured?
Which church is the true church?
What will the End Times be like?
Has Jesus come back already?
Is divorce a sin? Always?
Is abortion a sin? Always?
Is war a sin? Always?

I'm not looking for anyone's particular answers to any of these particular questions. I list them because they are a sampling of the myriad theological questions on which Christians disagree who profess to derive their beliefs directly the Bible.

Now if the Christian God's intent was for us to strictly use the Bible to learn his teachings for us, why is it that on virtually every doctrinal question under the sun, Bible-believing Christians cannot agree?

The standard answer of the Bible-believing Christian is to say that everyone else who disagrees with them aren't really following what the Bible teaches, they just claim they are. But that's exactly what all the other Bible-believing Christians say!

So again, the question is, if the Bible's teachings are so clear, and we just need to read it and see what it says - why does following exactly that advice produce such disparate results?

There is such a simple answer to these questions.
Why not apply the same principle.

“disagreement is a core part of the scientific process” and should not be construed a weakness. “Absolute certainty is confined to mathematical proof, and even there it is a bit dodgy.”

 

[nPeace]

The answer to that is VERY simple. Christians all interpret the Bible differently.
I have been telling them that for years, but they do not seem to understand what I mean, no matter how many times and how many ways I try to explain it to them.... They just say "but the Bible says"...

Then I say, "the Bible does not SAY anything, because it does not talk. The Bible is just words on a page until you read it and interpret it...." But so far, not one Christian has understood what I mean....
I mean logically speaking, if "the Bible says" why doesn't the Bible SAY the same thing to everyone?

You are correct that the standard answer of the Bible-believing Christian is to say that everyone else who disagrees with them aren't really following what the Bible teaches, so I often wonder why they never stop to wonder why, since they are all reading the SAME Bible.

I think you should join me on my recently created thread, but I feel you might not want to. No arguments. Just reason.
It might be a fun exercise.

 

[nPeace]

The teaching of the Bible (like other things) is such that it is necessary to correctly understand one idea in order to avoid wrong conclusions about other ideas.
It's like beginning with a faulty premise.

For example, if the idea that man was created with an immortal soul is assumed true then that might effect what he understands about hell.
If a persons immortal soul leaves the body when the body dies, where does "he" go?

Do you see what I mean. What you understand about one thing will affect your conclusions about other things.

So, I think it's important to begin with a proper understanding.

1) All men are mortal.
2) Socrates is a man.
3) Socrates is mortal

If all men are not mortal, then the premise (1) is incorrect.
If the soul of man is the actual man, and the soul is immortal, then the premise is wrong.

I think you hit the nail on the head.
Like all things, we investigate using reason, and a sound mind.
That's why people hire private detectives when the cops fail, and they search for a good PI.

 

[nPeace]

I used the immortal soul idea because I think it's the mother of all lies. So many conclusions about other ideas stem from accepting the immortal soul idea. If the immortal soul idea is rejected then it necessarily causes conclusions about other ideas to greatly differ. That's why there is so much confusion and differences amongst Christian sects.

The Bible never mentions anything about man having an immortal soul. You will not find the words "immortal soul" or "never dying soul" anywhere in the Bible. The Bible, right from the start, says that man became a living soul. So, why does mainstream Christianity say man was given an immortal soul at his creation?

They start from a faulty idea and then every other idea becomes necessarily effected by that idea.

In other words, start with a clean slate - without preconceived ideas, and build on a foundation.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

So a thread I started to discuss why the Bible is unclear has descended into a debate about whether a particular doctrine is taught in the Bible....

Can we step back for a minute? Whichever side is correct, if God intended for us to just read the Bible to be able to glean his views... the question of the thread is, why does doing just that produce such contradictory results? Is it possible that perhaps the Bible is not so clear? Maybe even contradictory?

Seeing all the doctrinal variety, to me, seems to be what highlights the unclearness. But I think I understand what you're asking here. The problem is, I think, that bible based religions (besides Judaism, pretty much) are not really intrinsically generated from the cultures that uphold them. We are trying to discuss something that was cast in shakespearean english, coming out of greek antiquity, molded from even more ancient hebrew. There is a reason that they wanted the kjv to be a holy translation, since that eliminates questions. Now even if you read through Acts, however, it turns out that most of the stories are actually about correcting confusion, and we are 2000 years closer to the source at that time. If it was a theological step in the mud then, then now it's kind of dead in the water. And the thing is, Paul didn't want there to be confusion, he preached for a unity of mind on these things, and anxiously spent his life trying to achieve that.

I think the variation should probably be accepted for what it is - it is natural for different groups of people to form different ideas about their spirituality. So in a sense, I don't really see it as a big deal, though they likely may

 

[nPeace]

I see what doctrine you think is central here, yes. But I didnt see an answer to the more important question:

"And more importantly, why do so many Bible-believing Christians not believe it, if it's derived from the Bible alone?"

Some people find the answer,hard to believe, but here it is.
2 Corinthians 4:3, 4; 2 Corinthians 11:12-15; Revelation 12:9; 1 Timothy 4:1, 2; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12...

 

[nPeace]

If I believe the Bible to teach one thing and man can reasonably show that what I believe the Bible is teaching is false then I ought to reconsider what I had believed.

For example, I used to believe that God created the earth out of nothing according to Genesis 1:1. But man has shown that the earth is much older than the idea of creation out of nothing as is supposed by Gen. 1:1

So, taking another look, I see that God never says that he created the earth out of nothing in Gen 1:1. Rather, I see that the earth actually already existed in Gen 1:1, just not in the form we know it today.

However, some people want to hold the idea that Gen 1:1 is speaking of the earth being created out of nothing and therefore they conclude that the days of creation are not literal days but very long periods of time. i disagree.

Then there are still others who hold that Gen 1:1 is telling us that God created the earth out of nothing and yet the days are literal 6 days. So, they have a problem with science.

I don't understand the reasoning here, but maybe we can take this up another time.

 

[nPeace]

Like I said, there are ideas which necessarily effect other ideas and understanding. And the one I think which effects understating the most is the doctrine of an inherent immortal soul in man.

I don't think it's God choosing an inconsistent method. it's seems more like man adding inconsistent ideas into the Scripture.

Similar to the evolution theory, but man somehow dismisses any notion that that happen in science beliefs.

 

[nPeace]

So a thread I started to discuss why the Bible is unclear has descended into a debate about whether a particular doctrine is taught in the Bible....

I was just thinking the same thing.

Can we step back for a minute? Whichever side is correct, if God intended for us to just read the Bible to be able to glean his views... the question of the thread is, why does doing just that produce such contradictory results? Is it possible that perhaps the Bible is not so clear? Maybe even contradictory?

Seems to me, we see first hand that it's people contradicting each other, and the Bible.
Why blame the Bible.
In science, scientists contradict each other. Is science to blame, or how scientist might interpret the data, either because of preconceived ideas, or not having a clear understanding?

To me, this is not as difficult as people are trying to make it.
It's simply a human factor, as others have already explained.

 

[Tambourine]

It depends. Jesus usually said, "It is written."

Did he actually say this to you in person?

Or did you read it in a book?

 

[LightofTruth]

I would bet money that some Bible believing Christians would say that about your view(s).

My view is that man is mortal. And can I can show many, many clear Scriptural proofs for that view.

But where does the Bible say man is an immortal soul as millions of Christian claim?

My view is that the Father alone is the only true God. Again, many clear Scriptural proofs.

But where does the Bible say God is a trinity as millions say?

 

[LightofTruth]

In other words, start with a clean slate - without preconceived ideas, and build on a foundation.

That's what I had to do.

Most Christian denominations have one thing in common. They all share the same Bible. And they all claim to base their doctrines on that same Bible.

The job for a seeker is to discover who has a correct doctrine according to the Bible. Basically, what I do is to study why a certain denomination believes one thing while another believes in contradiction to or opposes that doctrine.

What I've learn from all this is that doctrines which are explained by using words and ideas not found in Scripture are usually doctrines of men rather than God.

The doctrine that man is an immortal soul in a body of flesh is a classic example. The Scripture does speak anywhere of that. In fact, the very opposite is very clearly taught. It's so clearly taught from beginning to end that it should be considered as "milk" rather than "meat".

 

[Left Coast]

There is such a simple answer to these questions.
Why not apply the same principle.

“disagreement is a core part of the scientific process” and should not be construed a weakness. “Absolute certainty is confined to mathematical proof, and even there it is a bit dodgy.”

The scientific method actually has been applied to understanding the Bible, particularly in the past 200 years or so. Ironically, most self-identified Bible believing Christians have balked at many of secular academia's conclusions about it.

Again, if the Bible's meaning is so clear, why would this be? Why would God choose such an inconsistent method of communication?

 

[Left Coast]

I was just thinking the same thing.

Seems to me, we see first hand that it's people contradicting each other, and the Bible.
Why blame the Bible.
In science, scientists contradict each other. Is science to blame, or how scientist might interpret the data, either because of preconceived ideas, or not having a clear understanding?

To me, this is not as difficult as people are trying to make it.
It's simply a human factor, as others have already explained.

If it's not as difficult as people are trying to make it, why is there so much disagreement on even basic matters of the teachings of the Bible among Bible believing Christians?

If scientists were still debating basics of whether gravity exists, what shape the Earth is, germ theory, and so on, your analogy might be apt. But such is not the case.

Plus, science is not believed to be delivered by an omnipotent deity to communicate his message. It's a completely human invention.

Plus, even if science is completely and utterly useless and the worst method of discovery ever, that doesn't answer the OP question about the Bible.

So let's keep the thread on topic, shall we?

 

[Left Coast]

My view is that man is mortal. And can I can show many, many clear Scriptural proofs for that view.

But where does the Bible say man is an immortal soul as millions of Christian claim?

My view is that the Father alone is the only true God. Again, many clear Scriptural proofs.

But where does the Bible say God is a trinity as millions say?

I'm an atheist. I don't believe in immortal souls or the Trinity, either.

I'm betting a quick Google search would probably provide you some results though.

If the teachings are so clear, why don't so many other Bible believing Christians agree with you? Again, the point of the thread isn't about any particular one teaching. It's about the repeated pattern that teaching after teaching after teaching is widely disputed. Why would this be, among the very people who believe an omnipotent deity gave us the Bible to clearly communicate his message to us?

 

[nPeace]

How can a book "tell" anybody what to do? A book has never spoken to me. It was always myself who had to read the written symbols and interpret them in a way that made sense to me and my personal situation, which is how I used to assume everybody else would also glean information from books.

Do people regularly converse with ink and paper, and am I the only one who merely uses them to read what's written there?

I've never heard anyone reason this way before.
For all the years I have known letter writing, people have always thought of it as the writer speaking to them, and we all would the, So and so says, or the letter says...
No one ever reasoned that the letter did not say anything, or the person who wrote the letter did not speak.
In fact, there is a publication I read, some two decades ago, where a chapter started this way...
The Bible is like a letter from a loving father.
It tells us the truth about God; who he is, and what he stands for...

No one ever complained that the letter does not speak.
I suppose, as the saying goes, the world is full of surprises.

 

[nPeace]

Eternal life is life without end. It is not after life. Eternal life is life. Do I think I may die? Yes. Do I think I may not die? Also yes. Do I think now that I can live again? Yes.
As for deserving love from God, no one 'deserves' life from God. Please notice what Paul wrote:
"Christ has also introduced us to God's gift of undeserved grace on which we now take our stand. So we are happy, as we look forward to sharing in the glory of God." (Romans 5:2)

Got me thinking of (Romans 9:16) . . .So, then, it depends, not on a person’s desire or on his effort, but on God, who has mercy.

 

[nPeace]

That's what I had to do.

Most Christian denominations have one thing in common. They all share the same Bible. And they all claim to base their doctrines on that same Bible.

The job for a seeker is to discover who has a correct doctrine according to the Bible. Basically, what I do is to study why a certain denomination believes one thing while another believes in contradiction to or opposes that doctrine.

What I've learn from all this is that doctrines which are explained by using words and ideas not found in Scripture are usually doctrines of men rather than God.

The doctrine that man is an immortal soul in a body of flesh is a classic example. The Scripture does speak anywhere of that. In fact, the very opposite is very clearly taught. It's so clearly taught from beginning to end that it should be considered as "milk" rather than "meat".

Not to derail the thread, but here is a thought... After Jesus established the Christian congregation, by mean of the holy spirit, any search for truth will still result in one being a part of the body - the Christian congregation, over which Christ is head.
So anytime we find ourselves not united with a body, we need to ask ourselves, "Is Christ with me, as he promised his followers?" Matthew 28:20

Recall, the Christian congregation was formed as a means of salvation to the nations. Christ no longer walks the earth, but he direct the congregation by means of holy spirit..

Scriptures such as Romans 10:13-15, Acts 8:26-40, and Acts 10, reveal how God uses the congregation, to draw honest-hearted ones.

 

[nPeace]

The scientific method actually has been applied to understanding the Bible, particularly in the past 200 years or so. Ironically, most self-identified Bible believing Christians have balked at many of secular academia's conclusions about it.

Again, if the Bible's meaning is so clear, why would this be? Why would God choose such an inconsistent method of communication?

It depends what you mean by clear.
Is a puzzle made up of five thousand pieces, ?clear"?
One has to take 1) time - to sit and examine the pieces; 2) effort - to study which pieces fit correctly; 3) guidance - the picture on the box... to know that they are taking the right path.
All of this makes it possible to understand, and get a clear picture.

The Bible is no different.
Why does God choose the method of using men write his message, to convey to later generations.
The simple answer is that he want's only humble people in his righteous new world, ad it has been shown that humble people show themselves hungry for the truth, and honest about attaining it, and therefore they take the time, effort, and accept the guidance, and benefit.

That's the short answer. i can elaborate later, but right now, I am on the run. Got to go. Later.

 

[Left Coast]

It depends what you mean by clear.
Is a puzzle made up of five thousand pieces, ?clear"?
One has to take 1) time - to sit and examine the pieces; 2) effort - to study which pieces fit correctly; 3) guidance - the picture on the box... to know that they are taking the right path.
All of this makes it possible to understand, and get a clear picture.

If after 2,000 years, billions of people all couldn't agree about even the outline of how a 5,000 piece puzzle fits together, I'd start wondering if there was something wrong with the puzzle.

The Bible is no different.
Why does God choose the method of using men write his message, to convey to later generations.
The simple answer is that he want's only humble people in his righteous new world, ad it has been shown that humble people show themselves hungry for the truth, and honest about attaining it, and therefore they take the time, effort, and accept the guidance, and benefit.

So you think other Bible believers who disagree with you about what the Bible teaches are...not humble?

That's the short answer. i can elaborate later, but right now, I am on the run. Got to go. Later.

No problem. Later!