The Bible Tells Me So

[1213]

...The issue that reading the Bible doesn't produce one clear message or set of doctrines.

If people would take only directly what Bible says and explains, how could we have different ideas?

 

[Left Coast]

If people would take only directly what Bible says and explains, how could we have different ideas?

That's quite true. If your view is not that God gave us the Bible to clearly communicate his ideas to us, then the thread is not really directed at you.

 

[LightofTruth]

I'm an atheist. I don't believe in immortal souls or the Trinity, either.

I'm betting a quick Google search would probably provide you some results though.

If the teachings are so clear, why don't so many other Bible believing Christians agree with you? Again, the point of the thread isn't about any particular one teaching. It's about the repeated pattern that teaching after teaching after teaching is widely disputed. Why would this be, among the very people who believe an omnipotent deity gave us the Bible to clearly communicate his message to us?

Many do agree. And then there are those who can't and don't question the authority of their leaders. And those who trust that what they are being taught is correct.

Immortal soul believers have their favorite proof text.

Probably their most favorite is the one where Paul says that he'd rather be away from his body and home with the Lord.
The problem for them with that is Paul never uses the word "immediately" like they do.

Paul simply desired to be out of the body of sin that he had and into his "house from heaven" (resurrected immortal body) and be with Christ which occurs at Christ's coming.

For Paul, the most important thing concerning his faith was the resurrection of the dead when he would be "ever with the Lord".

1Co 15:22 For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own group: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ's at his coming,

For Paul, he says that faith is worthless if the dead are not raised. That's because if the dead do not raise then they remain dead.

 

[Left Coast]

And then there are those who can't and don't question the authority of their leaders. And those who trust that what they are being taught is correct.

But not you, of course. You're different.

 

[LightofTruth]

But not you, of course. You're different.

I'm simply one who has studied and continues to study the Bible in order to get to the truth of what it teaches. A huge part of getting to the truth of what it teaches is to study what others base their ideas on.
First, it's important to know that the KJV translators were biased toward the immoral soul doctrine. This can easily been seen by looking at the original Greek and seeing how they decided to translate the word psuchē.

For example:

Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

They translated the same Greek word as both LIFE and SOUL in the above passage.

Why the inconsistency?

What would happen if they translated psuchē. in Matthew 16:25 as soul rather than life? It would mean that a person who would save his "immortal soul" would actually lose it!
The word ought be translated as LIFE in both verses. Many realize this have have done such in their transaltions.

 

[Trailblazer]

If God was "Obviously...referring to the body of the man because only a body can return to dust." He would have used the word bâśâr which refers to the flesh or body of Adam. But God didn't tell Adam that his bâśâr would return to dust but that Adam, himself would. That's why God uses the word "YOU" instead of 'your body' (bâśâr).

He says "YOU" (H859) "YOU are dust".

H859
BDB Definition:
1) you (second person singular masculine)
Part of Speech: personal pronoun

Like the BDB dictionary The Cambridge Bible Commentary understands correctly the word "YOU".

"dust thou art, &c.] See note on Gen_3:7. Jehovah does not slay man at once; He is merciful, and relaxes His first decree. Man is not to enjoy earthly immortality: but he shall live until “the breath of God” is taken from him, and he becomes dust again."

Can you see that? The CBC says that "HE becomes dust again". That's because that's what God says.

Genesis 3:19, KJV: "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

The phrase “ashes to ashes” is part of 'ashes to ashes, dust to dust'. It means everything that has life will one day come to an end. ... The phrase means that humans are made of the dust, as mentioned in the major religious works of literature, and will return to dust after death.

Ashes To Ashes - Meaning and Sentences - Literary Devices

After the body dies the soul (spirit of man) lives in and passes from one world into another.

I do not care if the Bible does not properly delineate what happens to the soul after the physical body dies. The Bible is an ancient text and it was anything but clear, but Baha'u'llah cleared it up for us.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

 

[Left Coast]

I'm simply one who has studied and continues to study the Bible in order to get to the truth of what it teaches. A huge part of getting to the truth of what it teaches is to study what others base their ideas on.

But that's what all Bible believers claim. They insist they've studied the Bible themselves and come to their own conclusions based on much study. They all can critique various translations from the Greek and Hebrew till the cows come home. I've heard it from all corners.

But at the end of the day, you're all still hopelessly at odds with each other on basic doctrinal questions.

So again, this does not strike me as an effective method of communication on God's part.

 

[Trailblazer]

OK, thank you for expressing yourself. I believe what the Bible says.

The Bible does not SAY anything because it cannot talk. People read the Bible and interpret it as they read.
Christians all say they believe what the Bible says, but since it does not say the same thing to all of them, logically speaking that means it must have more than one interpretation. When Christians dig in their heels and insist that they KNOW what the Bible means I consider that arrogant.

Adam was given life (spirit, nephesh, or breath) by God after He created his body from the ground. When the breath left him and went 'back' in a sense to the One who allowed him to live, he--Adam--died. Nothing about his living after that in any shape or form. Not a word.

Just because the Bible does not say what happened to the soul (spirit) of Adam after his body died, that does not mean nothing happened to it.

Genesis 1:16,17 - And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”
God did not tell Adam that he would not die, or that he would live in spirit somewhere else. No. He never assured Adam after that either that he would live on in another realm of existence. Nothing like that at all. The Bible has written -- he died.

Obviously the Bible does not explain what happens to the soul after the physical body dies. The Bible is an ancient text written for ancient people so what was revealed back then was according the capacity of people to understand. Humans have more capacity ti understand in this new age, so more has been revealed about the soul and its eternal destination. There is much written by Baha'u'llah, below is just a short excerpt from a longer Tablet.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

 

[Trailblazer]

I think you should join me on my recently created thread, but I feel you might not want to. No arguments. Just reason.
It might be a fun exercise.

Thanks for the invitation, sounds interesting. I am really bogged down with many posts to answer going back three days, but if I ever get caught up I will take a look and maybe chime in.

 

[LightofTruth]

But that's what all Bible believers claim. They insist they've studied the Bible themselves and come to their own conclusions based on much study. They all can critique various translations from the Greek and Hebrew till the cows come home. I've heard it from all corners.

But at the end of the day, you're all still hopelessly at odds with each other on basic doctrinal questions.

So again, this does not strike me as an effective method of communication on God's part.

I really have to question whether those who claim to study the Bible actually do. It's been my experience with Christian denominations that what they are really being encouraged to do is follow what has already been established as being true and to read and study what those of that tradition teach.
Rather than being critical and questioning those ideas against Scriture.

 

[Trailblazer]

But at the end of the day, you're all still hopelessly at odds with each other on basic doctrinal questions.

That is because they interpret the Bible differently, although they cannot seem to grasp that simple concept.

They just all believe that are right and the other Christians are wrong. They have all studied the Bible so they know what it means. It's called arrogance.

 

[Left Coast]

I really have to question whether those who claim to study the Bible actually do. It's been my experience with Christian denominations that what they are really being encouraged to do is follow what has already been established as being true and to read and study what those of that tradition teach.
Rather than being critical and questioning those ideas against Scriture.

Do you really think that all the Bible believers who disagree with you don't study the Bible? Isn't it possible, just possible, that they have genuinely studied the Bible and simply have come to a different conclusion about its message?

Which Christian group/church/denomination/choose-your-favorite-label are you part of, by the way?

 

[LightofTruth]

That is because they interpret the Bible differently, although they cannot seem to grasp that simple concept.

They just all believe that are right and the other Christians are wrong. They have all studied the Bible so they know what it means. It's called arrogance.

I think we need to consider that many are raised in

Do you really think that all the Bible believers who disagree with you don't study the Bible? Isn't it possible, just possible, that they have genuinely studied the Bible and simply have come to a different conclusion about its message?

Which Christian group/church/denomination/choose-your-favorite-label are you part of, by the way?

I honestly believe they really don't study the Bible.
There is a big difference between reading the Bible and studying it. A person may think he's studying the Bible when he's only actually reading it. And most often, I think, it's only superficially being read.

Roman Catholics may (now) be encouraged to read their Bible but they are certainly not encouraged to question their sect as far as established doctrine is concerned. Unless of course they're confused as to what their sect teaches. The same is true for many other sects. They don't invite people to challenge their ideas, they expect you to simply accept them as being true.
The last time I sat in on a Protestant group study they called in bouncers to have me removed from their premises because I'm not Trinitarian. Another group told me that I couldn't partake of the communion because I believe the faithful will be raised immortal.

I mean, most denominations have set down what is expected of their follows to believe. They have statements of faith and creeds they follow. So why study to check those ideas against Scripture? And if you do, and find you disagree, they wouldn't want you anyway. Or at least they wouldn't want you speaking about it to anyone in the congregation.

I don't belong to any denomination. And as I mentioned, the last group I attended, said I couldn't partake of communion.

 

[Left Coast]

I think we need to consider that many are raised in

I honestly believe they really don't study the Bible.
There is a big difference between reading the Bible and studying it. A person may think he's studying the Bible when he's only actually reading it. And most often, I think, it's only superficially being read.

My Evangelical family members would strongly disagree with you that they don't study the Bible and only read it superficially.

Roman Catholics may (now) be encouraged to read their Bible but they are certainly not encouraged to question their sect as far as established doctrine is concerned. Unless of course they're confused as to what their sect teaches. The same is true for many other sects. They don't invite people to challenge their ideas, they expect you to simply accept them as being true.
The last time I sat in on a Protestant group study they called in bouncers to have me removed from their premises because I'm not Trinitarian. Another group told me that I couldn't partake of the communion because I believe the faithful will be raised immortal.

I mean, most denominations have set down what is expected of their follows to believe. They have statements of faith and creeds they follow. So why study to check those ideas against Scripture? And if you do, and find you disagree, they wouldn't want you anyway. Or at least they wouldn't want you speaking about it to anyone in the congregation.

Perhaps they are part of the group/church/denomination/congregation they're in because they studied the Bible and found that group aligns most closely with their understanding of it?

I don't belong to any denomination. And as I mentioned, the last group I attended, said I couldn't partake of communion.

So your understanding of the Bible is completely unique? No one else has the special insight and has studied as much as you?

Do you really think that plausible? I mean, really? You alone bear the true understanding of the Bible, billions of other Bible believers are all wrong whenever they disagree with you. Does that seem a reasonable conclusion to you?

 

[LightofTruth]

My Evangelical family members would strongly disagree with you that they don't study the Bible and only read it superficially.



Perhaps they are part of the group/church/denomination/congregation they're in because they studied the Bible and found that group aligns most closely with their understanding of it?



So your understanding of the Bible is completely unique? No one else has the special insight and has studied as much as you?

Do you really think that plausible? I mean, really? You alone bear the true understanding of the Bible, billions of other Bible believers are all wrong whenever they disagree with you. Does that seem a reasonable conclusion to you?

My understanding is not unique. Many groups and individuals understand man does not have an immortal soul. But I shouldn't have to tell you that.

Why people can't find it out for themselves is an individual thing. People have different reasons for why they study the Bible. I would guess that most who study the Bible do it for the same reason they attend church services. That is, to feel closer to God, and not to study the conflicting doctrines of the churches.

 

[Left Coast]

My understanding is not unique. Many groups and individuals understand man does not have an immortal soul. But I shouldn't have to tell you that.

That's not the only view you have, though. By "your understanding," I meant your set of beliefs about what the Bible teaches. There are Christian groups out there that teach annihilationism. Yet you're not part of any. So there must be other teachings of those groups you find...unbiblical. We're back to the same problem I outlined in the OP.

Why people can't find it out for themselves is an individual thing. People have different reasons for why they study the Bible. I would guess that most who study the Bible do it for the same reason they attend church services. That is, to feel closer to God, and not to study the conflicting doctrines of the churches.

Some people, yes. Others relish learning the different teachings and interpretations of various groups. I just find it implausible to reduce the fact that all Bible believers don't agree with you to, "they just haven't studied the Bible." That violates both just intuitive common sense (unless you're the most theologically well-educated Bible believer on Earth) and my own experience.

 

[YoursTrue]

Got me thinking of (Romans 9:16) . . .So, then, it depends, not on a person’s desire or on his effort, but on God, who has mercy.

I would have to say that's true. No matter how hard we try we cannot and do not earn life.
On the other hand, we can try to please God.

 

[nPeace]

If after 2,000 years, billions of people all couldn't agree about even the outline of how a 5,000 piece puzzle fits together, I'd start wondering if there was something wrong with the puzzle.

I have seen persons try to complete a puzzle, and, failed. At the end of the exercise, some pieces were damaged, and others were missing. The picture was colorful, but one could see it was not correct.

What was the problem?
Some persons look at a piece, decide it looks like it fit, and even though it does not slip into the slot "perfectly", they force it to fit.
Some have the pieces all over the place, so a piece ends up under their foot, and is swept somewhere, or sticking to the back of their arm, and they carry it somewhere, unaware.
Sometimes, believe it or not, they misplace the box, or use it for other purpose. Then when they get back to the puzzle. "Wait. Did you see the box?"

Whatever the case, there is nothing wrong with the puzzle, but the ones putting it together... 'they are not ready'.

With regard to your question about agreeing, please note that there is no reason to think that people who sit to fix a puzzle has to agree.
However, if say three or four people sit together, and are both organized, and united - that is, they seek to help each other, and they are not proud, insisting on their own way, you could imagine that that puzzle is more likely to come together, and be completed 'perfectly'.

On the other hand, imagine - let's make it more fitting... Imagine a puzzle of a million pieces, and you have, say... how many fifty? I don't know, but it those in the group are not organized. They are not united. They are proud - insisting on their own way "That fit's. That belongs there. Don't you move it." You could imagine the outcome.

Again, the problem is not the puzzle. The problem lies with the persons working on the puzzle.
United we stand... or succeed. Divided we fall... or fail.

So you think other Bible believers who disagree with you about what the Bible teaches are...not humble?

I would never say that. Nor think it.
I have found people who think more of themselves than is necessary, and that is mostly Atheists and skeptics (very few religious), especially on these forums, have that attitude.
They seem to think that if a person does not believe in the things they accept, then

...and I find that mostly with person who have some degrees in science or other academics.

However, not to get side-tracked on that, but I want to be clear, it has nothing to do with who disagrees with me.
What I said, was...
Why does God choose the method of using men write his message, to convey to later generations.
The simple answer is that he want's only humble people in his righteous new world, and it has been shown that humble people show themselves hungry for the truth, and honest about attaining it, and therefore they take the time, effort, and accept the guidance, and benefit.

Your question was...
if the Bible's meaning is so clear, why would this be? Why would God choose such an inconsistent method of communication?

I was actually rushing away, when I responded, so I don't think I properly addressed your question.

First though, what do you consider inconsistent?
I don't find God's method inconsistent. See this post
Secondly, it is the Bible that identifies what amounts to humility, and that God requires it.
I however, cannot determine who is, or is not humble. There is also the case of being misled, and then there is the case of wilful deviation from what is clearly true.
So, it is not just one factor, like lack of humility. There are others.

With our puzzle scenario, persons can also deliberately try to sabotage the project, as has been the case with the Bible.
I gave you those scriptures before.

I believe I know what your next question will be, so I will try to be complete at this point.

The scriptures say what is. One of the things it says, is that Jesus Christ is head of the body, and he directs it, as opposed to the imitations that he does not recognize.
We can, and must identify that body, in order to be a part of Christ. (He says that much - Matthew. 7:13, 14, 21-23)

Those who do, have no problem fixing the puzzle, and seeing the picture correctly, because they are organized, and united, by God, due to their efforts to satisfy their hunger, in all humility, and honesty.

Also, the scripture say, the harvesting is taking place, which means that people currently in a religious group, will find the body of Christ, and join it. The same is true of some who are currently Atheists and skeptics.
So that despite the fact that many millions are in confusion, and division, he body of Christ is united, and at the end of the harvest, the confusion and division will come to an end. For Christ says, he will burn all the weeds - that is, completely destroy the imitator, and he will also destroy those who do not know him. (2 Thessalonians 1:6-10)

So, in conclusion, the real question is not really, why does religious division exist... because it's not just in Christianity. The real question is, can we identify Christ's body - the congregation of God.
Why is that the important question?
Because, it's not a question of if persons are guided by God, it is a question of who is guided by God.
If one does not know, they are not excused, because by the end of the harvest, they should have. 2 Thessalonians 1:8
Do I believe that I am right, and all hhe others are wrong?
Of course not. I believe that God's organization - Christ's body - is right, and anything outside that is a mere imitation, and false.
Do I believe they are sincere people in all religions, even though misled, or not showing humility, or hungering for truth? Definitely. That's why JWs go knocking on their doors, even though they might get angry or annoyed.

A little exercise we can carry out...
Most person you see, arguing on scripture, ask them where they worship, or what religion the affiliate with.
If they tell you, they attend any religion, ask them why... see what they say.
They are divided, yet they attend each others services, and most will tell you, it's not the church, or God is in hearts, not buildings, or we are all worshipping the same God, we just have different paths.
What?
I can see you scratching your head. I am with you on that.
That should tell you something. They don't know.
Some would even tell you they don't. They are still searching.
I have never read in the Bible, where any disciple of Christ, did not know, or were still searching.
Rather, I read bold statements like this...
Whoever comes to know God listens to us; whoever does not originate with God does not listen to us. By this we distinguish the inspired statement of truth from the inspired statement of error. (1 John 4:6)
It was clear to the fist century followers, and it is clear to Christ followers today.
(1 John 4:1) . . . Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement, but test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

We can know.

No problem. Later!

Sorry to be so long. I didn't mean to. Just wanted to be clear, and hopefully final.
If you have other questions, not answered in this post, feel free to ask.

 

[YoursTrue]

Seeing all the doctrinal variety, to me, seems to be what highlights the unclearness. But I think I understand what you're asking here. The problem is, I think, that bible based religions (besides Judaism, pretty much) are not really intrinsically generated from the cultures that uphold them. We are trying to discuss something that was cast in shakespearean english, coming out of greek antiquity, molded from even more ancient hebrew. There is a reason that they wanted the kjv to be a holy translation, since that eliminates questions. Now even if you read through Acts, however, it turns out that most of the stories are actually about correcting confusion, and we are 2000 years closer to the source at that time. If it was a theological step in the mud then, then now it's kind of dead in the water. And the thing is, Paul didn't want there to be confusion, he preached for a unity of mind on these things, and anxiously spent his life trying to achieve that.

I think the variation should probably be accepted for what it is - it is natural for different groups of people to form different ideas about their spirituality. So in a sense, I don't really see it as a big deal, though they likely may

Well, let's say it this way...when miracles and events are written about years and years ago, we have a choice. We can believe them as written or we can think it's a made up story.
As a matter of fact, even today, if something unusual happens, some might say, "I don't believe it!"

 

[LightofTruth]

A Roman Catholic scholar told me I have no life in me because I don't literally eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus at least once a year. Even though most Catholics only partake of the wafer and not the wine.

So I studied what they believe and the scripture they use to justify their claim. But when Jesus spoke of eating his flesh and drinking his blood he said that the words he spoke were spirit and life. he said it was the spirit which makes one alive and the flesh profits nothing.

Consider this quote from Bibleref.com on John 6:54

"In this passage, Jesus repeatedly compares the means of salvation to eating His flesh and drinking His blood. The context for this analogy is Jesus' claim to be the "true bread from heaven," which is the sole source of salvation for the world. Several times in this section, Jesus will make this comparison, which has already deeply offended the crowd (John 6:43). Some cannot get beyond a shallow specter of cannibalism. Others will reject the idea of a Messiah who is not a conqueror (John 6:51). In the end, all but a small group will choose not to follow Jesus anymore (John 6:66).

The fact that Jesus is speaking in poetic terms here is explicitly proven later in His discourse. Therefore, this passage cannot be taken as proof of the doctrine of transubstantiation, the idea that the modern communion literally becomes the flesh and blood of Jesus. Christ, in His own words, says this is not the case (John 6:63).

Jesus also ties the importance of this claim to the same statement He made earlier: that those who believe will see eternal life (John 6:40). That was in the context of belief in the One sent by God (John 6:27–29). The people should have seen the parallels here, but they are too busy complaining (John 6:41) and fighting (John 6:52) to sense the deeper meaning."